Attack on Titan - Episode 5 Discussion / Poll

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

Ever since Eren said in episode 1 that he didn't want humans to live like cattle I've operated on the assumption that the titans built the walls to keep all the humans in one place. Easier to find them that way.

It's probably wrong, but I'll indulge until proven differently.

Imagine three lines of walls.... 100 years of fasting...

[Libros]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

Imagine three lines of walls.... 100 years of fasting...

Actually, remember in episode 5, it was explained that apparently, the Titans don't have to eat. At all, they completely ignore other forms of life, they literally eat Humans just for the evulz. A 100 years with no food is probably like the period between breakfast and lunch time to them, maybe. Except they never ate and never even had to eat breakfast or lunchtime. They just do it anyway.

[zRichard]

Originally Posted by Claym0re

1.

Humanity built three 50 meters height walls to have a place where they can live (stated in second episode). Do you know how much time, material and manpower it takes to do such a project while they had to repel the _constant_ attack of the titans?

When I watched the second episode, I called bullshit on that claim. The math just didn't add up. The outer wall's radius is around 500km, the territory would be approximately 785.000Km^2 big. That's more than twice the territory of Germany.

Spoiler for My speculation was:

That the walls were already there 100 years ago.

[articuzwolf]

Originally Posted by zRichard

When I watched the second episode, I called bullshit on that claim. The math just didn't add up. The outer wall's radius is around 500km, the territory would be approximately 785.000Km^2 big. That's more than twice the territory of Germany.

Spoiler for My speculation was:

That the walls were already there 100 years ago.

it's as big as borneo island, 3rd largest island in the world

= edit =

actually it's slightly bigger than borneo

[Hamster]

Wait, has the second wall been breached or just one of the bait walls? If it's the former then there's no point evacuating the civilians inside the tiny innermost city.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Hamster

Wait, has the second wall been breached or just one of the bait walls? If it's the former then there's no point evacuating the civilians inside the tiny innermost city.

Only the bait city right now, but if you heard what they said they are already expecting the armored Titan to show up any time.

They still need to evacuate the civilians out from the bait city even if they prevent the second gate from falling.

Originally Posted by Claym0re

We see every soldier using the 3D gear (even during the 100 years of peace). Its not just an elite squad, but even the gruntiest grunt has it. Your very first test at the beginning of your training is to check whether you are capable of using the 3D gear or not. If not, you go to the farms. After this they train you for years to master it. For me this tells that the 3D gear is a battle tested and already proven method to kill titans. Hell even in the _intro_ we see how it should work.

I really liked the first four episodes. Humanity wasn't prepared, got ambushed and got their ass kicked. You saw the terror, everything felt real.

But I find it quite offensive that the exact same thing is happening after years of preparation, especially since this whole fantasy world coulnd't exist without humanity putting up some fight. I don't wanna see naruto-ish miracles, and yes soldiers have to die, but I believe everything should be a lot more balanced.

Well you know what's the biggest problem with the titans? You'd think that the fact that they are giant beasts who can regenerate almost every injuries was bad enough, but that's actually not as bad as the fact that now and then an "abnormal" titan pops up.

That's what really screws everything up. As strong as an enemy is, when you know how to deal with it you have a chance to fight back, but when that enemy starts acting in a completely unpredictable way, or show unpredictable skills, well everything falls apart, your army will fall in disarray because they are not prepared to face that contingency, adds to that the terror of seeing your companions being devoured before they could even have a chance to defend themselves, panic spreads and that's the end.

Eren's squad was trained to fight titans, but they were never prepared to fight a kangaroo titan. That sudden event, plus the abrupt end of their companion, and their inexperience did the rest.

[apotheosis]

Originally Posted by Claym0re

I did read your analysis and I wholeheartedly agree. I understand what the author is trying to tell us, but for me the whole setup and whats happening is a contradiciton. Here are my reasons:

1.

Humanity built three 50 meters height walls to have a place where they can live (stated in second episode). Do you know how much time, material and manpower it takes to do such a project while they had to repel the _constant_ attack of the titans?

The construction of the walls does seem fairly unrealistic given what we know now, but its possible they could introduce some additional information later that explains it. Without knowing the rest of the details, it seems that it would set a better consistent backdrop for the story to make this clearer earlier ... but maybe my opinion will change once I know more.

Originally Posted by Claym0re

2.

We see every soldier using the 3D gear (even during the 100 years of peace). Its not just an elite squad, but even the gruntiest grunt has it. Your very first test at the beginning of your training is to check whether you are capable of using the 3D gear or not. If not, you go to the farms. After this they train you for years to master it. For me this tells that the 3D gear is a battle tested and already proven method to kill titans. Hell even in the _intro_ we see how it should work.

I really liked the first four episodes. Humanity wasn't prepared, got ambushed and got their ass kicked. You saw the terror, everything felt real.

But I find it quite offensive that the exact same thing is happening after years of preparation, especially since this whole fantasy world coulnd't exist without humanity putting up some fight. I don't wanna see naruto-ish miracles, and yes soldiers have to die, but I believe everything should be a lot more balanced.

You're absolutely correct that there seems to be some inconsistency here in the strength/variation of the titans, but possibly it could be explained by some evolution of titans. As others have noted, there were some "abnormal" titans that they faced. At this point, it's hard to know if that's truely out of the norm & previously unknown to humanity or just not something they were trained for. I am not sure why they wouldn't be trained for it ... but maybe it's an advanced course or something that they get once they join the corps.


Personally I did find it somewhat amusing that Eren was unable to make good on his boasts (so far at least) as his claims seemed completely unrealistic & more over the top than most shounen lead mouthiness/trash talking. Not to mention annoying.

The biggest hole in "relative realism" or "consistency" to me right now (given the information available to an anime veiwer anyway), would be the way Eren was able to (without some of his leg mind you) suddenly cross tons of space & get down the titan's throat to save Armin, before it swallows! This seems completely backwards from the way the Titans moved 10x+ faster than Eren mere seconds prior. He also at least temporarily held back its mouth from closing, which seems like an impossible feat of strength based on previous Titan interactions.

I hope they'll come up with a way to explain this so it's not just done for effect. I have seen a few posters hint at a way he could survive, so I suppose it could explain both at once ... maybe. I don't want to speculate too much there, as it will invite spoiler comments.

[zRichard]

Originally Posted by apotheosis

I hope they'll come up with a way to explain this so it's not just done for effect. I have seen a few posters hint at a way he could survive, so I suppose it could explain both at once ... maybe. I don't want to speculate too much there, as it will invite spoiler comments.

That titan was clearly weaker (physically and mentally) compared to the titans that we have seen in EP1 EP2.
Also, it's possible that Armin could have resisted for a minute inside his mouth.

[Claym0re]

Well the fact that they have a name for it - abnormal - means that the soldiers already know about these deviant types. In addition the naming itself suggests that titans with "special abilities" (etc... jumping like a kangaroo) are rare and the common titan is the one we already seen dozens of...slow and stupid.

I can accept that Eren's team got really unlucky. In addition I believe the titan chopping of his leg was an abnormal too.

But apart from their squad and this one incident humanity is losing badly in general. And as I stated above after all this setup this shouldn't be the case.

Originally Posted by zRichard

The outer wall's radius is around 500km, the territory would be approximately 785.000Km^2 big. That's more than twice the territory of Germany.

I must have missed the 500km radius but I agree. You hardly need such a huge place to accomodate 1 million people.

[articuzwolf]

Originally Posted by Claym0re

Well the fact that they have a name for it - abnormal - means that the soldiers already know about these deviant types. In addition the naming itself suggests that titans with "special abilities" (etc... jumping like a kangaroo) are rare and the common titan is the one we already seen dozens of...slow and stupid.

the first abnormal type that humanity have ever encountered is "probably" colossal titan from 5 years ago, other than that (and armored), I don't think they ever encountered the other abnormal type nor have a Wikipedia about it.
I think they refer it as abnormal because it acted abnormally compared to other titan (normal titan walk, one from episode 5 jump), not because some sort of exact definition/classification about titan.

Originally Posted by Claym0re

But apart from their squad and this one incident humanity is losing badly in general. And as I stated above after all this setup this shouldn't be the case.

they did really well actually if you compared episode 5 to episode 1

they put barricade in front of the gate (preventing the boulders causing damage like in episode 1). the fact that no one died from colossal titan kick is already great achievement

they stationed soldiers as vanguard, middle and rear to fasten evacuation and prevent titan from advancing

they created a gutter to entrap the titan (which fail miserably)

they tried to close the hole using some sort of rope (again, fail because the vanguard team were wiped out before they even finished)

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Claym0re

I must have missed the 500km radius but I agree. You hardly need such a huge place to accomodate 1 million people.

You can read a more detailed analysis here

[Claym0re]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

You can read a more detailed analysis here

Ill keep you as my personal "attack on titan cyclopedia" if you dont mind. Thx the info.

[Iron Maw]

Originally Posted by Claym0re

But I find it quite offensive that the exact same thing is happening after years of preparation, especially since this whole fantasy world coulnd't exist without humanity putting up some fight. I don't wanna see naruto-ish miracles, and yes soldiers have to die, but I believe everything should be a lot more balanced.

Okay, your being very premature here. The same thing will only happen again if Wall Rose falls. Yes the human forces have taken pretty bad damage, but that's to be expected for a sudden attack with no warning and barely any of Cadets property station and prepared. The humans at the sametime have achieve a better response this time (citizens evacuated, more organized battle plan) despite not having a full force. Besides the fight has only just started.

Originally Posted by apotheosis

Personally I did find it somewhat amusing that Eren was unable to make good on his boasts (so far at least) as his claims seemed completely unrealistic & more over the top than most shounen lead mouthiness/trash talking. Not to mention annoying.

Don't see why Eren wanting revenge is over the top. While whether he ends up achieving or not is another matter, but he's worked hard for 3 years and managed get into the top 5 out of the 10 top cadets. He hasn't been sitting around and being all talk, that's admirable and the kinda of soldier the army and humanity in general needs.

The biggest hole in "relative realism" or "consistency" to me right now (given the information available to an anime veiwer anyway), would be the way Eren was able to (without some of his leg mind you) suddenly cross tons of space & get down the titan's throat to save Armin, before it swallows! This seems completely backwards from the way the Titans moved 10x+ faster than Eren mere seconds prior. He also at least temporarily held back its mouth from closing, which seems like an impossible feat of strength based on previous Titan interactions.

There were two Titans there, the one that bit Eren's leg with it's surprisingly fast speed and the one that got Armin are different. Just like humans, not all Titans are exactly the same, it's even mentioned during the flashback lesson that Titans have different regeneration rates for example. As for him getting to Armin, I assumed he moved to Armin using 3D gear before he giant started on him.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Iron Maw

That said, Eren's possible chance survival isn't a problem as long as there is a proper foreshadow for it (which there is). The internal logic in this case is not broken then since the conditions for him are different than others in a similar situation based on an element in the story that's tied to him and not for a sole meta reason (hey, he's the main character!). Of course it's still the question of whether he's actually dead of not.

Originally Posted by Westlo

Eh there's a pretty obvious out from that dream/flashback? sequence at the start of episode 3. (combined with a certain sequence from ep 5...) I really can't see any other way from what has been presented, but hey we'll see next week.

Still did not seriously expect the episode to end the way it did, thankfully I stopped reading the manga after three chapters.

Unless Ep6 suddenly opens with a *gasp* brand new OP accompanied by yet another awesome-sauce song that goes well with anything, the smart dollar says that Eren is still alive. Somehow. Never underestimate the power of plot armour.

Still, if he does survive, I hope there's a plausible reason for it. Maybe the serum his father injected him with is some kind of emetic that forces titans to throw up. Yeah, lame, but that is a remote possibility.

In any case, don't forget that Eren's missing an arm and a leg now. Even if he does survive, he'd be a cripple. How is he going to keep fighting as a soldier? Would that be the new direction of his character development? Learning to cope with the humility of being under Mikasa's permanent protection? We'll know soon enough.

Originally Posted by Claym0re

Humanity built three 50 meters height walls to have a place where they can live (stated in second episode). Do you know how much time, material and manpower it takes to do such a project while they had to repel the _constant_ attack of the titans?

That's one of the first questions I pondered and others have asked the same thing. How were the walls built? How could so many miles of such immense walls have been built while humanity was under constant attack?

I expect the question will eventually be answered. For now, though, I think it's just another case of anime logic. It's not without precedent, though. The frozen Wall of The Game of Thrones has never been adequately explained, either. It just exists. Characters in that saga speculate that The Wall was created by immensely powerful sorcery. Maybe that was the case in Shingeki no Kyojin's universe as well. Of course, I would prefer a more rational explanation but, again, only time will tell.

[Claym0re]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

That's one of the first questions I pondered and others have asked the same thing. How were the walls built? How could so many miles of such immense walls have been built while humanity was under constant attack?

I expect the question will eventually be answered. For now, though, I think it's just another case of anime logic. It's not without precedent, though. The frozen Wall of The Game of Thrones has never been adequately explained, either. It just exists. Characters in that saga speculate that The Wall was created by immensely powerful sorcery. Maybe that was the case in Shingeki no Kyojin's universe as well. Of course, I would prefer a more rational explanation but, again, only time will tell.

Well in GoT based on the legends the Wall was built by the founder of house Stark (Brandon Stark) who lived approximately 8000 years prior to the TV series. (Books explain more about GoT history)

In this anime they finished the construction of the walls about 100 years ago. I am pretty sure if something fishy happened back then people would remember.

Considering thats the most important thing in their history like..........ever?

[Jan-Poo]

Isn't it fishy that they do not know anything about how the world was before the titans?

They don't even know that there are seas, deserts and snowfields. And apparently people can get arrested if they possess books that describe those things.

In EP1 there's even a guy who claims that walls are the work of God.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Claym0re

In this anime they finished the construction of the walls about 100 years ago. I am pretty sure if something fishy happened back then people would remember.

No. You have this wrong.
The records go back 100 years for the appearance of Giants.

There is no info on when or how the walls were built. What you stated is speculation, not actual given information.

Remember in the beginning of episode one, a monk is trying to preach how God is responsible for the creation of The Wall?
That is the sole information we have of anything about the wall in the anime so far.

[Claym0re]

Well I don't speak japanese so i have to use the material the translator team gives me.

At the beginning of episode 2 it translated something like this: "The survivors built three walls - Maria, Rose and Sina. They spent the next 100 years in peace."

Based on this I made the assumption that it was finished 100 years ago.

But articuzwolf is right - there is much to see. Hopefully all my questions will be answered (and it wont be a clusterfuck of incoherent stupidity).

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Claym0re

Well I don't speak japanese so i have to use the material the translator team gives me.

At the beginning of episode 2 it translated something like this: "The survivors built three walls - Maria, Rose and Sina. They spent the next 100 years in peace."

Based on this I made the assumption that it was finished 100 years ago.

But articuzwolf is right - there is much to see. Hopefully all my questions will be answered (and it wont be a clusterfuck of incoherent stupidity).

Hm, it does say that. I checked episode two, and Armin does say this.

[Iron Maw]

Spoiler for Comparison to the source:

I'll just bring up this quick timeline:

738: The Human race is nearly devoured to extinction with the exception of those living within the walls.
745: The Giants are unable to penetrate the giant walls, and the human population is able to enjoy 100 years of peace.

It doesn't say that Walls were built a 100 years ago, just that humans enjoyed peace for a century. The Walls themselves could have been much older and not to mention completely different back then what they looked like now.