[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[Auria]

Originally Posted by mizou

I have a small theory about the closed room
since in red text, it said that when a room door is closed there no manner to escape or enter the room without a key
in the four games, the servants are suspected
but what if the door was not locked ?! I mean that the one who try to open the door simulate that it is locked

Wheew, that's actually a good one, reminds me of a novel where the closed room was created because the door had a glass window, the culprit said there is the victim not opening the door - it's closed, he claimed - slashed through the window with his fist and then realizing the door is closed from the inside but actually he had the key in his hand the whole time and just closed the door when he said oh it's locked lol (I hope it's understandable in spite of my bad english)

[Jan-Poo]

the problem is... usually is a servant that opens the door, so you go back to the starting point. Well at least in Ep2, since they aren't closed room at all if you suspect the servant. Except the last closed room, but then you would suspect Rosa.

[LuckySovietStar]

Maybe she was practicing stomping on candy for this very purpose . They call her stompy
That God damned anime. I should stop watching it, seriously-its like New Anime Truth is overwitting Old Novel Truth in my memory -_-. Hmm I will reread key scene, also I will confirm Nanjo presence-ctrl button sure is handy. I wonder, can we trust half-asleep Battler scene? We can't trust drunk one, so I'm not sure...

At first, I was skeptical about chances of undetected door opening farce-I mean, there is sound of picked lock, you can't maneuver key in proper way, somebody should notice something is out of place. But I tried it today, when I said that house doors are locked-nobody in family noticed that they were in fact open before I put key in a hole, closed them, and opened them. Huh. Maybe only I'm so paranoid that I watch closely hand of keywielder ? And no, I didn't have any magical symbol painted in red, sorry. Maybe this is their purpose? To make sure that nobody will pay attention about keywielder?

Also, another weird question-about "clockwork murder" in ep1. Lambda said that they are not murderers; but, are members of mass suicide murderer's? Probably yes, but, duh.

Oh. And why the hell When the door to the chapel is locked, it prevents any and all methods of entry or exit. According to magical scene, Team Gohda basically screwed this and entered trough window. So, you can destroy red with destroying object? Well, it changes status of room and corresponding Red Truth, probably. Of course, you can enter any place playing Juggernaut, okay, let's say that Beato is taking as granted that "of course, HULK SMASHed doors and windows are counting as open one", but in other cases, she said, that you can use window, yes? There was someone who talked about simply repairing glass damage...
But still. Why the hell window is not mentioned in chapel case? Also, I don't think that changing chapel glass is simple, but still, this sounds weird. Why magical scene violate red truth? Maybe its like "pssst, they can't enter chapel this way, think about it!". Even Kanon said that he can propably enter trough window, but Rosa didn't gave him a chance. Maybe chapel windows are made in way that makes them count as unpassable obstacle? They can't be opened, and even without glass, you just can't squeeze trough them.
I'm fine with This door is the only entrance or exit (Jessica's room), because window is not entrance. But fleeting trough window is surely a method of entering or exiting, a phrase that was used in Chapel's case.
Basically, when Chapel's door are closed, you can't get in or out. You can't destroy window, because this is method of entering, and this is banned in red.
If doors of Jessica's room are closed, you still can make your cunning escape trough the window, either opening it from inside and making your accomplice close them (popular theory for ep1 2nd twilight), or you can remove glass, get out, and put it again. Damn. Why Battler didn't try to trick Beato about saying which WAY culprit escaped-windows, or doors...-_-

Oh. And didn't Rosa put out that key in some flashy way? Like, making it drop from envelope on palm of her hand? Maybe this is only me, but I don't take things from envelope's this way, I don't want anything to drop on floor . I put hand of mine in, firmly grasp thing inside, and pull out. But taking something "fall, fall!" way make it "sure", that something was in envelope, and not in your hand-because your hand is here, envelope is here, and key is flying trough air, landing on your palm. Also, left impression is much stronger.

[Jan-Poo]

That's something I have often thought. there are some red truths that when I first read them I thought: "wait why you say it is impossible?!". I think Ryukishi should have used a different wording. In the case you mentioned he should have rather said: no one ever entered or got out of this room when the door to the chapel was locked

also everytime Beatrice says that it is impossible to open a lock without the proper key I can't really take this seriously. In most cases they are internal doors and there isn't really any need to have high security locks for them. A skilled lockpicker with the right instruments shouldn't have many problems. It would be more precise to say that "in this game the possibility to open this door with anything that isn't the room's key or a master key doesn't exist".

[LuckySovietStar]

Yeah. Friend of mine, who don't want to read novels and is just watching anime, before first arc ended, said that culprit is just like his Fallout character-with 125% lockpicking skill.
Well, maybe Kinzo was paranoid and demanded super secure doors. Or maybe Natsuhi is paranoid. After all, she is making servants act like there is army of thiefs just waiting for one non locked window.
I'm mostly posting these crazy things here because I believe that I'm very wrong, overlooking something, and somebody will point it. Like how was it done with Jessica's trial of blood.
Another thing. Why Rosa didn't try to make servants restrain themselves? I think that having them in one place, unable to move and act (there should be something like rope, some relict of Kinzo's iron dad fist), under supervision, would be more secure that letting them crawl around mansion freely. Genji and Shannon would probably do it without word (but I can't imagine George not throwing objection). If you are not wolf, you do it. And if you don't want to, get out the room before I shoot you. Simple. Of course, if Rosa IS wolf, not Supersheep, this is death sentence...no, in fact, it is not!
This would make them dead only if Rosa would kill George\Battler\Maria, or if they are also wolves. If they are sheeps, and Rosa is Wolf, she can't kill surrendered servants, because cousins would object and probably George with Battler's help would kick that nice ass of Rosa and get that gun from her.
Only thing that I can think is like that:
a) Rosa believes that she is Supersheep, and everyone is a Wolf, and If she will demand restraint, they will jump at her and Bad End.
b) Rosa is only one Superwolf, she is looking for isolated targets
c) Rosa believes that she is Supersheep who is trying to be hero and shoot isolated wolves.

[hodil]

Chap 2. twilight 1.

I was just wondering... if there was a possibility for the scene we saw outside the chapel to be fake...

Well.. outside the chapel...we see the servants and Rosa to be staring at the door. Maybe that was faked? Not everyone was actually there? Lets say, maybe Gohda. After killing the six in the chapel, hid under a chapel bench =.=" and when Rosa opened the door, he sneaked out and joined them. Ok fine Gohda is pretty far off...

Oh crap...it doesnt explains the key...

Chap 2.twilight 4,5,6,7,8.

Genji grabbed a knife in the kitchen. Genji grabbed a knife? again when shannon, george and gohda went to get the mirror. Oh so... okay... he grabbed the knife to restrain kanon and kill a gold butterfly...

EDIT:

Or Rosa could be both a sheep, and a wolf. A victim, at the same time, a murderer.

[milkypink]

Originally Posted by LuckySovietStar

Yeah. Friend of mine, who don't want to read novels and is just watching anime, before first arc ended, said that culprit is just like his Fallout character-with 125% lockpicking skill.
Well, maybe Kinzo was paranoid and demanded super secure doors.
I'm mostly posting these crazy things here because I believe that I'm very wrong, overlooking something, and somebody will point it. Like how was it done with Jessica's trial of blood.
Another thing. Why Rosa didn't try to make servants restrain themselves? I think that having them in one place, unable to move and act (there should be something like rope, some relict of Kinzo's iron dad fist), under supervision, would be more secure that letting them crawl around mansion freely. Genji and Shannon would probably do it without word (but I can't imagine George not throwing objection). If you are not wolf, you do it. And if you don't want to, get out the room before I shoot you. Simple. Of course, if Rosa IS wolf, not Supersheep, this is death sentence...no, in fact, it is not!
This would make them dead only if Rosa would kill George\Battler\Maria, or if they are also wolves. If they are sheeps, and Rosa is Wolf, she can't kill surrendered servants, because cousins would object and probably George with Battler's help would kick that nice ass of Rosa and get that gun from her.
Only thing that I can think is like that:
a) Rosa believes that she is Supersheep, and everyone is a Wolf, and If she will demand restraint, they will jump at her and Bad End.
b) Rosa is only one Superwolf, she is looking for isolated targets
c) Rosa believes that she is Supersheep who is trying to be hero and shoot isolated wolves.

As far as Rosa demanding the servants tie themselves up or whatnot, if she IS involved in the murders somehow, by restraining the top other suspects she would remove any ambiguity that would remain should further murders occur. What I mean is, if someone else got killed, and all of the servants were tied up at location A, the only people left to roam freely would be those previously considered sheep...
I don't buy her logic of "Since I have this gun, and I have not killed you yet, I am therefore not a wolf!" because depending on the strategy of the murderer, that may not factor into things at all but I'm not sure she is involved in the murders either but I will say that her appearance in the chapel the night before is way too suspicious XD

[LuckySovietStar]

Or Rosa could be both a sheep, and a wolf. A victim, at the same time, a murderer.

Well this is variant c. Supersheep that kills one she believes are wolves.

As far as Rosa demanding the servants tie themselves up or whatnot, if she IS involved in the murders somehow, by restraining the top other suspects she would remove any ambiguity that would remain should further murders occur. What I mean is, if someone else got killed, and all of the servants were tied up at location A, the only people left to roam freely would be those previously considered sheep...

Hmm. Variant b, she is a Wolf that want to make them isolated, and want to have as much suspects crawling in mansion as possible. And remember, there is also Beatrice running wild. They don't know about head count limit, nor about master key limit.
But let's say. Servants are restrained at location A, and EVERYBODY is located here. Rosa, cousins, servants. This is most secure option. If she is wolf, she can wait for George to fall asleep, smack him in the head, same thing with Battler, then kill everyone. Easy. If she is Supersheep (how would look sheep+musou in japanese? ), she can protect everyone, while supervising them. Win-win. Of course, she may think that George\Battler will release servants when she will be looking another way, and they will make her unwilling star in some guro doujin. But still, I believe she is cunning enough to make this situation impossible.
Even Ryukishi said that most hard part is making survivors not gather in one place. This is kinda what inspired me.

Ah. Anybody remember, that Natushi said in ep1 "I will even become demon to protect you", and Rosa basically said exactly same thing in ep2? I found it interesting, but I refused to make any sense out of it, accepting it as big red herring. You know, one adult woman that survives is a culprit etc. But maybe, there is more we can juice out from this?

ets say, maybe Gohda. After killing the six in the chapel, hid under a chapel bench =.="

Don't touch my favorite magical Gohda chef----erm. I mean. There was red truth that said, no one was hiding in chapel. Shut-in murder is not working. Unless "under the bench" is considered not as "hiding in chapel"


Eh. Best way to be killer in Umineko? Have nice house repairing skills. Kill, lock doors, make a hole, escape, hide hole somehow, repair it. Voila. Red Truth is very physical condition-sensitive. That's why "everytime, killer did have a duplicate of unique key to this door, but after locking it, he destroyed it before Beato stated in red how many keys are around here" work almost every time (only Eva's room is untouchable, I believe).

[rogerpepitone]

It wasn't so much that Rosa wanted to be seen removing the key from Maria's purse (she would have been just fine if all the cousins were fast asleep when she arrived); it's that she was worried that the one or more of the cousins would testify that she never even entered the room.

[Kazuki_Kun]

I've cried 3 times now at different scenes in this episode, and i'm not even finished.

Wow, just wow. How can one be SUCH a despicable person? poor, poor little Maria-chan..

Also, poor Ange. damn. ><

[_dk]

There's something about the chapel scene that the anime altered....
Nanjo wasn't with the servants from the beginning, and this can be an important point.
Why?
When Rosa and the servants went into the chapel, they saw the corpses and Rosa immediately sent Gohda and Kanon to find Nanjo and call the police, and Genji and Shannon were to find Kinzo. Then that leaves Rosa alone at the scene of the crime.

Here's a crazy theory. What if the six weren't really dead by then and were only asleep, and that their being dead was only an illusion? This scene wasn't observed by Battler (before he came) and was not confirmed in red text. So Rosa could possibly create an illusion to suggest that the six were dead and thus sent the servants away, and thereby kill the six and make the candy fountains. At the very least, she could have altered the crime scene. This theory then makes the whole envelope and key point moot.

Well, tell me if there's anything I missed that disproves this theory.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by _dk

There's something about the chapel scene that the anime altered....
Nanjo wasn't with the servants from the beginning, and this can be an important point.
Why?
When Rosa and the servants went into the chapel, they saw the corpses and Rosa immediately sent Gohda and Kanon to find Nanjo and call the police, and Genji and Shannon were to find Kinzo. Then that leaves Rosa alone at the scene of the crime.

Here's a crazy theory. What if the six weren't really dead by then and were only asleep, and that their being dead was only an illusion? This scene wasn't observed by Battler (before he came) and was not confirmed in red text. So Rosa could possibly create an illusion to suggest that the six were dead and thus sent the servants away, and thereby kill the six and make the candy fountains. At the very least, she could have altered the crime scene. This theory then makes the whole envelope and key point moot.

Well, tell me if there's anything I missed that disproves this theory.

The problem is the door was left open and the kids came running in. In the VN she thinks to herself how she should have closed the chapel door to prevent them from seeing the corpses.

If Rosa was going to alter the scene she probably would have at least closed the door while she was doing it.

Originally Posted by LuckySovietStar

So, you can destroy red with destroying object?

That's right. If an extra master key or extra chapel existed and was used to commit the crimes then destroyed immediately afterward then that key no longer exists. The red would not contradict this since the red was used after the key was destroyed.

[LuckySovietStar]

Then Battler should check it everytime. At the moment of murder there was extra key, but it was disposed after crime! This trick is so cheap and so annoying! Beato propably didn't even used it, because it would be so annoying to confirm every-freakin-time, that YES, THERE WAS NO GOD DAMNED NINJA EXTRA TROLL KEY AT THE MOMENT OF CRIME, and Battler after getting it right once, probably would try it always, just for annoyance . But, there is one thing just wrong with it. This is also why I don't like Rosa Envelope Late Night Circus.
It's like assuming that culprit is aware of Red Truth. There is no reason for destroying key after use, you can just hide it. There is no reason to wait for "next day". Of course, maybe culprit was afraid of DUPLICATE X being discovered, or Halloween Party ended after midnight. But still. Culprit don't know that he must watch out for some Red Truth, unless EVERYTHING is one huge scripted event made by Meta-Beato. And that, I don't believe.

Also, maybe I'm trying to connect Higurashi with Umineko (yay for Akasaka, Maria's runaway dad! ), but I'm curious about one thing.
Remember how Kasumi was irritated by Okonogi, and criticized "Tokyo people"? My first thought was "AHA, THAT FUCKIN TOKYO ORGANIZATION!". Still, Dragon Knight Reina is probably playing with us, and Okonogi is just typical Tokyo person. Tokyo as a city, not shady group. Heh. Anybody got similar thought process?

[_dk]

Originally Posted by Ssol

The problem is the door was left open and the kids came running in. In the VN she thinks to herself how she should have closed the chapel door to prevent them from seeing the corpses.

If Rosa was going to alter the scene she probably would have at least closed the door while she was doing it.

The very act of closing the door is going to draw suspicion to herself if being alone at the scene of the crime isn't suspicious enough. The last thing a culprit would want the witnesses to see is six corpses and an unscathed survivor behind closed doors.

[~Diru~]

Hmm but what would be the point of bringing them in, going out again without doing anything and then kill them when the risk of being discovered is bigger?
Maybe she wanted to try Kinzo's magic?

[_dk]

Actually, the more I think about it, the key and envelope point can't be moot, since six people went into the chapel (red text implies that the door must be unlocked for this to happen) and the door was locked in the morning when the servants went there....The key must be used at least once during the night to lock the door.

Then here's a more elaborate theory concerning the chapel murders. We don't know if Rosa was ever in the chapel in the night, but let's pretend she was not. Say the six victims' food were laced with sleep-inducing drugs that take effect slowly. Then, as the family meeting was going on in the dining room, they were lured to the chapel somehow. One way this can be done is if Rosa left a note saying "the chapel" on the table and not show up for the family meeting. Then as the remaining six "second-generation" Ushiromiros enter the dining room, they see the note and assumed that Rosa was waiting for them at the chapel for some reason. They go there and don't find Rosa, and instead see the three ingots, leading them to think "Beatrice exists" (as a metaphor). Rosa then locked them inside to wait for the drugs to take effect (it's not safe to take on all six at once), went back to the guesthouse and resealed the letter so that Maria won't notice. Then in the morning she can carry out the actual murder after sending the servants away as she knows that the six victims are out cold.

This also explains the note that Shannon finds, if she can be believed....

[~Diru~]

Didn't Rosa also think "Beatrice exists"?
If she did all of that it makes no sense...
As I said before, Rosa couldn't be sure when a person would come back, and for her it would be quite hard to put 6 persons on chairs, cut them open and stuff them with sweets.
I'm not sure if Rosa could drag, for example, Hideyoshi from a place in the chapel to the chairs.
Also why would she arrange that scene, and not kill them just were they were as she entered the chapel?
And about the poisioned food, that would only be possible with a servant helping her and is again risky as a servant alone can't take the 6 poisioned plates for the 6 victims at the same time.

[LuckySovietStar]

She bought tea for Natsuhi and Kumasawa in ep 1 (person who always keeps her promises); that's why she is often accused of poisoning. And Shannon don't know a thing about tea (or she is pretending), so its rather easy to fool them.

[rogerpepitone]

Diru: Remember the pajama party scene? Maria recorded herself as having happy thoughts the entire time, but she wasn't. Conclusion: The narrator can lie about what a person is thinking.

Also, for all the "somebody was hiding in the chapel when they arrived" / "the murders occured after the doors were unlocked at 6 AM" hypotheses, how does that make things any simpler to explain?

Imagine taking out the murders entirely. Seemingly:
- Krauss and the others entered the chapel through the door sometime after the cousins left.
- The door was locked when Rosa arrived.
- Maria had had the only key to the door since a time before anybody entered the chapel.

Those "explanations" do nothing to avoid this contradiction.

[Jan-Poo]

Rosa then locked them inside to wait for the drugs to take effect (it's not safe to take on all six at once), went back to the guesthouse and resealed the letter so that Maria won't notice:

There's one problem with your Theory. Locking people inside the chapel doesn't make them prisoners. As it is seen on ep2 on a later instance, you can easily broke a window to enter and exit.

If you really want to make this theory work, you need to think Rosa was with them and didn't left the room until the drug had effect. Also she had to fully prepare the scene before the servants would go to the chapel the following morning.


And there's also another problem with this theory. What was the point of going through that hassle? Wasn't it more easy for her kill them with poison? And even then what was the point of killing them later with all the risks connected?

The people on the board can't possibly be aware of the red truth. And don't forget that piece Battler can think of many alternatives that metabattler can't. In that game that chapel closed room is easy to explain. There is no way to demonstrate the validity of the letter and the key in that reality, as well as there no way to demonstrate that the door couldn't be locked or unlocked with any other method but the single key to the chapel.