2011-04-12, 10:52 | Link #22 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Abstract Side of Reality
Age: 35
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I haven't noticed any sort of decline in the comic book community. In fact, it seems that fewer people were buying them due to the fact they were trying to push regular series titles into the $3.99 an issue range. DC Comics lowered their stuff back down to $2.99, which is a much easier price to swallow. Marvel Comics promises to put out fewer comics, which I have yet to see them do.
How many of you are aware of the Vertigo imprint of DC Comics? There are oh so many awesome titles on that imprint. *note: I will be contributing more once I wake up. My mind is like, "herpa derpa cigarette...herpa derpa coffee..derpa herpa". |
2011-04-12, 14:25 | Link #24 | |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Abstract Side of Reality
Age: 35
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But to say that it ruined the comic industry? No. It is only from nostalgia can we say such things. The older generation of comic fans hold onto what comics were like when they got into them. The Golden Age was the time when modern comics were first published. It's generally thought of starting from the late 1930's and into the late 1940's or mid 1950's. Some of the most popular characters, such as Superman, Batman, Captain Marvel, Captain America, and Wonder Woman were created in this period. The Silver Age of comic books is commonly known to have started in the early to mid-1950s and ending around the 1970s. The publishers implemented the Comics Code Authority to regulate comic content in response to allegations of comics promoting juvenile deliquency. Characters that were created during this time are the Flash, Spider-Man, and the Fantastic Four. Many of the Golden Age super heroes underwent a change in background story to what we generally recognize as being their origin stories today. The Bronze Age of comic books is commonly accepted to have begun around 1970 and into 1985. It retained many of the characteristics of the Silver Age comics, with brightly colored super heroes remaining the most popularity comics. Darker plots and more mature storylines featuring real-world issues started to appear around this time. Issues such as drug use, alcoholism, and environmental pollution began to appear, setting the stage for the next age of comic books. The Modern Age of comic books has many names. Some call it the Iron Age of comic books, or the Dark Age of comic books. It is commonly accepted to have begun in the mid-1980s to present day. Comic book characters generally became darker and psychologically complex. Independent comics flourished, and larger publishing houses became more commercialized. Titles such as, 'The Dark Knight Returns" and "Watchmen" were the early successes of this age. Other comics, such as Claremont's run on the X-Men, the event "Crisis on Infinite Earths", and "Batman: Year One" would go on to be some of the most popular stories of the comics industry. There is some dispute as to when the Modern Age began, or that if the Modern Age and the Dark Age of comic books should be separate. In some instances I believe they should be, as there is a noticeably different atmosphere for comics from the 1990s to the present day and comics from 1985-1990. You may notice that the ages were commonly defined by mineral values. I believe that it is improper to label the ages as such. The Golden Age would normally describe a period of scientific, artistic, social, and economic growth. I believe the Golden Age would be best described as the Iron Age, for while many popular characters were created at this time, they only set the stage for what was to come. I believe that comics have not yet reached their Golden Age yet. It is still on the horizon, but I think I would be trolled to highest heaven were I to say such a thing on a comics orientated forum. ^^; Last edited by delirium; 2011-04-12 at 16:40. |
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2011-04-12, 21:27 | Link #26 |
#1 Akashiya Moka Fan
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I don't often buy true American comics... but I thought I'd throw my two cents in on this matter anyways.
I see three big flaws with American comics, especially if you compare them to manga. First and foremost is the character designs. This in part comes from the fact that 99% of comics are about superheroes. This means that (as was pointed out in another post) they look muscular and powerful/ drop dead sexy and gorgeous. Although this does help the superhero image, it also means that people can't truly relate to them. On a tangent to that, notice how several of the superheros start out in situations that are impossible for the average person to be in? Let's take a look at two of the ones who've been brought back to life via the silver screen today: Batman and Ironman. I choose these two because even though on all accounts they are awesome and don't technically have superpowers of any sort, both are millionaire men, something that the average public can't relate to. Continuing along that line, reason number two is the audience. In Japan, from what I understand, literally everyone reads manga. In the US, the comic craze has dwindled down into "if you're into comics you're a geek/nerd". Not to mention many of those who were part of the great era have grown up, and rather unfortunately, need to spend the $4 for comics in other places, i.e. a gallon of gas these days. So that's really two strikes there: not only do comic readers get grouped as "nerds who live in thier mother's basements" (a stereotype which is very untrue, I'm sure), but they can't afford to buy it unless they're truly hardcore. The third thing against comics is the stories themselves. Oh sure, there's a lot of proof that the superheroes originally brought about by comics are and always will be loved. But, because of the fact that these characters have been around for decades, and not to mention that no new characters are generally able to enter the comic scene, these characters have stories that have been set in stone for ages, i.e. they have hisotry that goes back ages and ages. a big reason why manga works so well is because new titles are always being created, with new characters waiting to be developed. Many superheroes are already developed, and other than brief summaries, many would-be newcomers are turned off by the amount of history they'd have to learn about each character. On top of that, they're generally all superheroes, and as I stated before, people can't relate to them or the situations they're in. Manga characters generally (though certainly not always) take ordinary people anyone can relate to, and then are put into extraordinary situations. I think American comics could become huge again (I certainly remember watching the 90's cartoon Doug and it's comic book hero Quailman, and that was certainly big)., but as things are right now, only the hardcore fans can survive it.
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2011-04-13, 00:24 | Link #29 | ||||
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Abstract Side of Reality
Age: 35
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Now, this isn't always the case, but I can tell you right now that Japan has the same social problems as the USA when it comes to people going against the norms of society, and that includes being fans of manga, comics, anime, and so on. There has been no decrease in the sales of comics either. $10,559,398 is the estimated amount of money made by Marvel Comics in March 2011. $6,192,430.59 is the estimated amount of money made by DC Comics in the same month. FF #1, a new series, sold an estimated 114,472 copies in March 2011. There have been price hikes once in awhile in the comic industry, but comic publishers always try to do something as to not choke all their customers out of buying their comics, trade paperbacks, and so forth. DC Comics dropped the prices of their comics to a standard $2.99, whereas Marvel Comics promised to not produce so many and create a story of greater quality for that $3.99. The biggest problems that the comic industry faces is the task of not overwhelming people interested in getting into comics. They have decades and decades of character stories to break down into something able to be swallowed by someone just getting into comics. That's just about it. And, might I add one thing? $2.99 to $3.99 a month per issue is not extravagant. When the economy is bad, you will likely see a decrease in the number of items sold, but that applies to all industries and not just comics. We very rarely have weekly releases of the same comic series, they're usually released monthly. Quote:
They know of DC Comics, Marvel Comics, Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, and the X-Men, but they don't know the stories that well. It's viewed as material for children. The same applies in many cases to anime and manga. While there are obviously mature titles on both sides, most of the time the general idea towards them is the same. Comics went through a hard time in the 1950s due to the fact that they were not regulated, comics publishers devised the Comics Code Authority to lessen the negative reaction towards comics. Japan is going through something similar with Tokyo's Youth Ordinance Bill. Last edited by delirium; 2011-04-13 at 00:53. |
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2011-04-13, 01:36 | Link #30 | |||
fushigi ojisan
Join Date: Jan 2011
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The shift from targeting the mainstream and focusing on fellow fans probably happened in the 70s. Comics started getting more insular, which turned off even more non-fans. It's a vicious cycle, one that you can see in other fields like anime. Quote:
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2011-04-13, 01:37 | Link #31 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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Well for the all the "conflict" between comic book and manga fans, it's nice to see the creators of American comic books don't feel the same way.
Especially a man I have great respect for, Mr. Stan Lee. http://news.yahoo.com/s/prweb/201104...prweb5227854_1 Oh and to put the comic book industry into perspective; Last year Penguin publishing made $1.71 billion dollars by itself in 2010. Total comic book revenue from ALL comic book publishers for 2010 made $420 million dollars (this does not include video games, movies, TV shows, or other revenue sources). With movie, video game, and other licensing contracts the total revenue is well over $900 million to $1 billion dollars. However, that's not what we're discussing here, we're talking sales of the actual paperback comics. In 1959 total sales of comics were about 312 million copies per year. Now-a-days total comic sales per year are about 70-80 million. The comics generate more capital, because they cost more (even adjusted for inflation), but the real gravy for the comic book industry is the movies, video games, graphic novels, and animated TV shows. That nets the industry the lion's share of its profits, which in 1959 were only about $260 million dollars. Now compare that to the video game industry's $18.9 billion dollar revenue in 2010, and you get a clearer picture of where comic books lay in the overall scheme of things. The anime DVD sales (does not include merchandice like model kits, toys, etc.) in the US for 2010 were around $300 million dollars alone, not counting manga sales of an estimated $160 million dollars. My point to all this is to put the US comic book industry into perspective compared to other "geek/nerd" entertainment. It's a niche, and while it has enjoyed some revival in the first quarter of 2011, it is not growing much outside of anime and manga (which doesn't have the Hollywood exposure) and is far behind both the traditional publishing industry and the video game industry, both of which sell products of a similar nature in so far as fantasy entertainment is concerned.
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2011-04-13, 09:39 | Link #32 | |
#1 Akashiya Moka Fan
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But, only the infamous otaku watch anime/ collect figurines, etc. I'm sure many know (or may not know), but manga is literally translated as "comics". I'm not 100% sure, but I think it can be written in both hiragana and kanji. However, I know for a fact that anime is always written in katakana. The short version of what this means is that "anime" will always be seen as something that's not a true part of Japanese cilture, no matter what we here in the west think ( quick fyi- the term anime is actually borrowed from the word "animation"). Manga, OTOH, is something that originally part of Japanese society, not something that was borrowed from another culture (even if it's now greatly associated with the otaku... but as I keep stating, manga is actually acceptable in Japan, whereas anime is not so much). Now to jump onto another train of thought- true, i don't read much comics. But, I've read a few here and there, and immensely enjoyed them. But, I don't think I'll ever be able to be into them as much as I'm into anime/manga. Yes, I would love to support something that's based in America... but other than the flaws I pointed out earlier, my own personal reasons for not supporting comics on a regular basis (besides monetary issues)- one, the comics are extremely dark, unless you buy the "kiddie" versions. Reason number two: From what I usually see, many of the comics are just re-using characters that have been around since comic books began. This seems to be a double-edged sword; true, you know the names. But, it also means there's little room for character development, because by this point, the stories of the characters are well-known by everybody. And correct me if I'm wrong but aren't comics also 99% of the time about crime-fighting superheroes, or superheroes/non-superpowered heroes that still always kick ass fighting against some evil organization trying to take over the world? I do know this formula worked when comics first started, since there essentially were "evil" organizations that seemed to be trying to take over the world... but it doesn't work as well these days.
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2011-04-13, 12:26 | Link #34 |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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The problem with modern American comics is tied to the problems with Superhero comics, that's to be sure, but I think one of the big problems is that for some reason people seem to think that American Comics=Superheroes. There are non-superhero mainstream comics in America. Off the top of my head there's Doonesbury (political satire) and Archie comics(Romance and slice of life).
While I can't comment on Archie, I learned everything I know about 70s and 80s politics from reading Doonesbury Anthologies my mom happened to have, and Doonesbury even won a Pulitzer prize and still has it's place in pretty much every newspaper out there. Despite being a 4 panel strip, it reads quite well in anthology form, due to it's continuous plot lines (favourite would have to be when Duke became Governor of American Samoa and then Ambassador to China...) There's also the large output from webcomics, which perhaps could be mined for talent. However it cannot be denied(from the numbers above) that Comics have seen better days. Far as I can see the following is required: 1. Ensure creative continuity, when an artist ceases to work on a series it should simply end, rather then keep it on artificial respiration and force a writer who wants to write something different to continue it. Obviously this does not include assistants (inkers etc.) 2. Move towards title with a defined beginning middle and end, particularly for works aimed at adults. 3. Aim for a lower price point and have anthology magazines (similiar to Shonen Jump) in every newsagent across America. Kids should be able to get a Comic with their Ice Cream. Comics should be a cheap alternative to Computer games, as in Japan where an issue of Jump costs 300 yen and is the size of a telephone book. 4. Produce titles which are not collectible. Produce massmarket paperbacks instead. 5. Different Genres, a smaller proportion of superhero comics. Don't try and have a different genre by making shoehorning it into a superhero genre, if you want drama make it drama, not weird super-hero drama!. 6. Produce a higher volume of titles, produce 100 and expect only 10 to succeed. 7. It's been shown that girls read more, produce more titles aimed at girls (Shojo manga is at least as succesful as shonen manga in the US) To be honest I don't think it's the super-hero comics that are failing, it's in the rest of the comics market where the problems are. The super-hero publishers have simply been able to stay around due to their fans (and of course lucrative deals with Hollywood). |
2011-04-13, 17:39 | Link #35 | |
Sensei, aishite imasu
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
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I'm not denying that things that were stereotypically 90's didn't sell comics at the time. I'm arguing they ultimately weren't sustainable, and they kept allot of new people from expressing interest in the medium. That's certainly was the case with me. I just found to much of the stuff in those 90's comics to ugly to look at. Particularly the weapons. How many American comics in 91 were drawn like this? |
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2011-04-13, 18:08 | Link #36 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Abstract Side of Reality
Age: 35
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The Sandman #4 pg. 23
The Dark Knight Returns: Sin City: Don't make me get my Crisis on Infinite Earths out, Roger Rambo. I will not be happy if I have to participate in a pissing contest. I really don't like these, "lol lets compare comic/Japanese comics art and stories!111!". We're all fond of what we love, and I happen to love both styles of comics, and this isn't that kind of discussion. This sort of discussion will get the thread locked, most assuredly, so let's not continue. Both manga and comics are fantastic, righto? Different art styles as well. It's like trying to compare a Picasso and Van Gogh. Different art forms, incomparable, equally great. Last edited by delirium; 2011-04-13 at 18:40. |
2011-04-13, 19:18 | Link #37 |
Member
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yeah, I mean for every amazing panel in american comics (I'd like to point out this one from Flex Mentallo real quickly)
Spoiler for :
You can find an equally great one in japanese comics, and in european comics, and any other comic industry. Let's be honest, there's amazing stuff and shit stuff in any industry. Manga seems to be the zeitgeist of teen culture nowadays, but there's still an audience for american comics who doesn't seem to be relenting any time soon. There's also a huge number of non-superhero american comics that are amazing (blankets, asterios polyp, parker, and the biological show come to mind) and they seem to be getting a bigger and bigger following. American comics sure aren't booming nowadays, but there are enough people who love them where there is no chance of them letting up soon, and i'm sure quality american comics will be produced for decades to come.
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2011-04-14, 04:20 | Link #39 |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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The problem here is that none of this is mass market. The only good American comics are more arty titles, or too risqué to ever go really mainstream (like Sin City).
American Comics needs the equivalent of Shonen Jump. Now I'm no fan of Jump, but that's the solution. |
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