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View Poll Results: Accel World - Episode 15 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 8 | 12.90% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 9 | 14.52% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 21 | 33.87% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 12 | 19.35% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 7 | 11.29% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 2 | 3.23% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 2 | 3.23% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 1 | 1.61% | |
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll |
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2012-07-25, 03:49 | Link #141 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Age: 38
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Here is what I don't get people are constantly talking about how this situation could, would, or should be handled. However I have to ask have any of you all ever been accused of a crime or wrong doing that you did not commit?
Trust me when I say the majority of people are quick judge you in light of accusations no matter how big or small they may be and all someone has to do is point a finger.
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2012-07-25, 04:44 | Link #142 | |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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The idea that kuroyukihime would be absent from school for some time is a possibility that stretches our imagination beyond our limits. The fact that some ass hole like Noumi would use this absence as a good time to approach and make a move on her subordinates was completely out of the question. The threat of the blackmail potentially causing a huge stir up in Haru's life, regardless of how it would really turn out in the end, was something Haru was not willing to entertain is simply too ridiculous. Haru losing a fight he was in complete control of due to some overconfidence was something too convenient. This somehow invalidates the development Haru is getting, mmhmmm.
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2012-07-25, 09:28 | Link #143 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Tennessee
Age: 36
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Reckoner's post summarizes better than I could have why the episode doesn't come across as being forced or contrieved to me. To me 'forced' would be like if a random meteor saved the day by falling down on Noumi right as he was messing around with Haru or Chiyu, or something. To AnimeSuki, something being contrieved is... uh... I don't even know... anything and everything? I don't even know where to begin, both because this episode's detractors speak in such broad, general terms that I don't even know when they're coming from when they cry 'Deus Ex Machina' (I guess because they're in such a rage over how awful and terrible Haru was in this episode that they simply don't have the capacity to think straight) and because their criticisms towards things I find perfectly okay are so aggressive and over-the-top that I find it hard to imagine they're not simply being impossible to please.
Seriously, not everything that depends upon any degree of chance or luck (good or otherwise) is forced, manipulative, etc. People don't have to cry out "THIS IS SUCH DEUS EX MACHINA BULLSHIT, WAY TO STRETCH MY SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF YOU TERRIBLE WRITER" every time something that requires good, or bad, timing happens. This morning, I was almost late to school because my Alzheimer's-ridden grandmother woke up right as it was time for me to leave. Back in 1971, my dad's best friend at the time got worked up because my dad couldn't find the 'hot chick' at this one party that the friend was trying to point out, to which he responded with "Hell, Jack, it's not like I'm going to marry the girl or anything." (The girl was my mom; Daddy first spoke to her a few weeks later, they started dating, and they're still together 41 years later.) Things just falling into place a certain way because all the right pieces come together at the right time should not stretch anyone's suspension of disbelief. That's simply how everyday life works, the way it's always worked for everyone and probably always will. |
2012-07-25, 10:22 | Link #144 |
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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Well, I would concede that the confluence of circumstances driving the plot is certainly convenient, and the extent of the breakdown we see as a result is pretty extreme. Perhaps it's partly because it happens over so few episodes, so everything seems really abbreviated.
I suspect that part of it is because we all know that this is much ado about nothing. Noumi is, at best, a low-level mid-boss, and is certainly going to be defeated one way or another. If the characters in the story could see that, of course, there would be no plot. As a character, Noumi is little more than a means to an end for Haru's character development. Perhaps if people found him more genuinely menacing, and if the stars hadn't aligned in such a perfect way, they might not consider the plot to be so "contrived" (even though it personally didn't bother me as much as some others).
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2012-07-25, 11:00 | Link #146 |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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I don't know what you guys are talking about but the reason I say some events are contrived is not because they're too convenient but because they simply don't make sense whatsoever.
It doesn't make sense for Haru not to tell Taku about the letter beforehand. Noumi's blackmailing plan has too many holes for it to actually work or make sense. It doesn't make sense for Haru to just stop punching the crap out of Noumi for the sake of using his wings (And no there's no actual suggestion that he was overconfident). And whilst it makes sense that Haru would feel so ashamed about losing his wings that he can't even bring himself to tell Taku about what happened, it's actually brought in rather suddenly because I never once thought he was overconfident about his wings beforehand. That's not to say there's no development this way whatsoever. When Haru actually lost wings and he was shocked we were given flashbacks showing how much he cared about them so I was actually thinking "Wow dude, that must suck. I feel for you". But the problem is that the degree to which they did it was never going to satisfy what we were going to see later. It was too little for me.
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2012-07-25, 11:05 | Link #147 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Tennessee
Age: 36
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To clarify, my post actually wasn't in reference to anything you've said; some posters in here are bad and they should feel bad (And my posts are aimed at them), but your posts are good and you should feel good.
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2012-07-25, 12:15 | Link #148 | |
Banned
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I'm sorry but when it becomes a bad thing to have the plot set up in such a way as to serve an end and when you start debating what's convenient and forced in such general manner as is being done here you don't leave many options as to what can be considered sensical/good writing. Anyway to me it looks like this started off as an argument about whether Haru's actions are justified to discussing the mechanics behind whether they make sense, but I think what the real issue is is whether they've allowed them to make sense. It almost feels like Accel World has suddenly become the lightning rod for issues some people have with Light Novel writing in general (believe me I have my share) as opposed to issues that are unique to Accel World proper. The fact that I don't see that huge a difference between how Accel World gets laid out and how a lot of other LN adaptations get laid out (other than I frankly find it much better paced and far more suited to my tastes in style and content than the average sci-fi action LN adaptation) makes me think that the real spark lies in the fact that the characters are at a low point both in terms of confidence and their character (personality) and a whole lot of things happening at once has led to it. Let me see if I can break this all down even further. What we have here reminds me of a classic martial arts movie plotline. The scenario is the one where the master (KYH) is away and the students are left in charge (Taku/Haru) of the dojo (the school) and for the first time the student has to act on his own (Haru telling KYH that he'll take care of things). The master is not there to instruct him, he can't go to her for advice and concurrently there's a challenger (Noumi) come to usurp the dojo and steal the students away (in this case it's Noumi's whole blackmailing scheme). The student is challenged to a fight and in his overconfidence he is lured into a trap and loses to a hidden technique and is forced to abdicate the dojo and his honor (in this case Haru's wings). He feels he has let the master down, he felt he had reached a certain level but finds that he came up short in this instance and is humiliated and can't bear to face the master, fearing he isn't worthy. He begins to wonder if his confidence was really his at all (KYH's absence makes this possible) and whether he can actually defeat the challenger at his level of skill at all. Just as he's about to give up an old friend appears and he's offered the chance to learn a new technique from a hermit (Sky Raker) that could give him an edge. This is about where we are in this pretty common martial arts flick styled arc, all that obviously remains is for the student to struggle through mastering the new technique, finding the confidence he needs and going back to challenge the usurper and win his honor (wings) back. In all honesty it also kind of reminds me a LOT of the Rocky III plot too where Rocky had risen to the top of his game and is overconfident (he hasn't realized that Micky has been supporting him in the shadows and fixing his matches so as to give him easy challengers) but suddenly things go wrong, his support is gone (Micky dead, Paulie arguining with him, Adrian ) and he loses his confidence (Micky gets hurt before the big fight and can't be there to coach him so he gets distracted and loses the title) and is the underdog again to a hungry challenger (Mr. T) who is kind of a dick and goaded him into fighting by threatening to move in on his girl (Adrian). Just when he's about to give up and call it a career an old rival (Apollo Creed) comes by and tells him he's better than that and takes him to see his master (Duke) who teaches him new techniques to compensate for the ones that he's lost so that he can have an edge again when he goes to try and regain the title. Now here's the catch though, does one find the above two scenarios and Accel World's current arc contrived, or does one find it merely a common story arc suited to fit the sci-fi/gamer/high school drama angle that is Accel World. To me it could easily be either depending on the mentality of the poster and I think that's what we're seeing here in this debate. |
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2012-07-25, 13:55 | Link #149 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Georgia
Age: 27
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I thought this episode was great. I can understand where haru is coming from and i don't mind it at all hell i think it was done quite nicely. What made the episode was none other then ASH BROLLER !!! I'm surprised how much of a bro he was too haru and next episode looks to be interesting .
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2012-07-25, 16:53 | Link #150 | |
cho~ kakkoii
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 3rd Planet
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Yeah, I've got all of those points you've made in your post, and I've mentioned and acknowledged them more than once in this thread. Yet, I can't still accept the way those points are made for several reason that was painfully obvious as the episode played out. Just because I can rationalize or can see the underlying message, doesn't mean I'll have to accept it. That's all I can offer.
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2012-07-25, 19:11 | Link #151 |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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I have no problem if you can't accept the story, what I am arguing against is this perpetration that the writing is somehow deeply flawed because it created all sorts of characterization or plot hole issues. Maybe this isn't what you're essentially arguing, if I am wrong please correct me here, but I got the impression that this is what you and many others were trying to say to justify your dislike of it.
We already established earlier in this thread what the plot is trying to get at. Some people argued this was poor characterization because they perceived it as a regression in character, to which many of us argued on the contrary while this is a temporary setback, it is ultimately a progression in character if the arc pans out like suspected. Then people started saying they can't care about the idea because of the execution of the plot. Things like plot holes and what not, to which now I've also pointed out why I think these claims are ridiculous to me because I have yet to see a convincing argument about it. All of which this leads me to believe that people just don't like the ideas of the story her fundamentally. If that is case, not much to really say. I don't see a problem with it personally and this comes down to your own subjective tastes in the end. But if you sit here and try to explain to me that there's somehow a flaw in the writing's execution to the degree that the thread is arguing, then I can only scoff at that. The writing has been very linear and easy to follow, with logical progressions in characterization to boot. IMO if there is anything that has weakened this arc at all,and the only place I can sympathize to a degree with the critics here (Since I'm not terribly impressed by this arc in comparison to others mind you), it's the whole idea of the blackmailing surrounding something like him tricking Haru to go into the girl's bathroom. I think the idea wasn't bad, the idea of blackmailing, but they could've come up a with more convincing matter to do it with.
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2012-07-25, 19:19 | Link #152 | |
cho~ kakkoii
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2012-07-25, 20:47 | Link #153 |
Senior Member
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Well, what we have in this arc is basically an average superhero comic book plot.
The villain's scheme is a bit half-baked. Not downright horrible, but not exactly ironclad either. So it's slightly disappointing that the hero is not taking advantage of the holes in the villain's scheme. There's a slight touch of characters being dragged along by the plot here. But really, I've seen much worse (Lex Luthor has done things that makes Noumi's scheme look totally fine and positively restrained ). There's times I think we anime fans have been spoiled a bit when it comes to airtight plots. I think we've been spoiled a bit by the Gen Urobuchis of the world. Part of the reason Madoka Magica and Fate/Zero are so great is because they have remarkably few plot holes in spite of having complex plots and massively dangerous plot devices (massively dangerous from a writer's perspective I mean - it's so very easy to screw up a wish-based plot device, for example). But they're the exception, not the rule, when it comes to plot-heavy narratives. In most plot-heavy narratives you're going to have a bit of contrivance, a bit of convenience, a bit of "that's not really the smartest thing he could have done...". It's not bad. It's just average. Take a point or two off in episode ratings, but otherwise let it slide. That's my approach anyway. So yeah, I totally see where Haak is coming from, but it's not worth saying "Accel World is crap" or anything like that. Accel World is still a very enjoyable show with a moderate amount of plot contrivance, which is normal for a plot heavy show. Relentlessflame is right about the "mid-boss" feel that Noumi gives off, and that's probably part of the issue here for some viewers. But then, I never expected this show to just blitzkrieg through all the Kings, and that's pretty much what it would have to do if it didn't have KYH head off for awhile. That, or nerf KYH in some contrived fashion... and honestly, that would be worse, imo. Just accept this "in between" arc for what it is, and hopefully it'll do some good, lasting character development (that's how a lot of these "in between" arcs are handled, after all).
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2012-07-25, 21:37 | Link #154 | |
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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Of course, the strength to defeat this mid-boss comes from within, and no matter what Sky Raker has to say, it'll no doubt amount to "believe in yourself" deep down (whether she shows him some other technique or not). But, I think that him losing sight of that fact makes sense because he legitimately believes he is powerless right now: 1. He is being bullied in the real world, and he feels trapped. (Some of this is old unresolved trauma coming to the surface again.) 2. Kuroyukihime is not there to save him this time (and she's someone he admires and believes in, and who saved him (twice) in the past). 3. He feels responsible for dragging Chiyu into this, and feels that he can't protect her. 4. He lost his wings, which represent his special power/ability in the Accelerated World. As the last arc said, losing your will to fight can be a powerful force, and this is building on that fact (last time it struck Kuroyukihime, and now it's striking Haruyuki). I can grant that the bullying/blackmail is a bit flimsy (as we already discussed in previous episode threads), but I can also see that it might seem real and menacing to him. So... how exactly does it undermine his character development? All the rest seems okay to me, but this particular leap I still can't follow. To be clear, I too have some problems with this arc (though I liked the way the emotions played out in the first half of this episode -- I liked the direction of that first part), but I still have a hard time understanding some of the specific criticisms being raised.
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2012-07-30, 03:57 | Link #156 | |
cho~ kakkoii
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And when I start to think about how he may overcome his current foe in the absensce of Kurohime in the upcoming episode (haven't seen 16 yet), the only answer that comes to me is that he will rediscover his edge that was lacking earlier. My point is pretty much that a good character development occurs naturally which takes into account all advances made previously on such character. In this case, however, the plot is scripted to fit the progression of the story rather than letting it happen which tend to navigate character development naturally and without omitting any development that has already taken place. Haru's character development here is forced to reach a certain outcome and to get to that outcome, some of his character development we've already recognized in the Cyanpile arc had to be undermined. I've no doubt he will "fly again with or without his wings", but only because he will rediscover his edge, a set of development that was already there and didn't need any discovering. Like I said a few times already, yes, I can rationalize why Haru should be acting this way in this arc.... it still doesn't mean I'll accept it.... because I've already seen a different set of outcome with the same set of condition bestowed upon Haru. And while I'm at it, I'll just go ahead and say it already.... this isn't good writing. *ducks tomatoes* The script is pretty basic which is pretty much there to instigate a reaction more than anything else. And judging from how most of the post expressed their take on the episode, I'd say those reactions are more appropriate and called for than the ones who are trying to understand Haru. And that's you too Relentless. Just say it with me, "I've seen better."
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2012-07-30, 05:11 | Link #157 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
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Just watch 16. I look forward to your comments on 16, because I don't really think 15 should be treated as a self-contained story in itself.
It's worth noting that Noumi is in no way a known quantity. There is no prospect of KYH returning swiftly. Haru is a boy with horrendously low self-esteem, and needs others to strengthen his backbone. If Haru was female, what Noumi did to him would be quite similar to rape. Whatever development Haru has undergone is not enough for him to deal with someone like Noumi (yes, as mid-grade boss villain material he is) solo. I prefer not to take a reductionist view and treat each episode as a self-contained story anyway, so I think throwing egg-tarts at Haru , or the author, Kawahara is premature until we see this arc play out to it's ultimate conclusion. |
2012-07-30, 11:53 | Link #158 | ||
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Really still can't help but think that Dr. Casey is 100% right and that swap out Haru for any other character....hell even swap out his design and voice and the reaction here would be that much more mild. I've seen this sort of thing argued over before a bit, but rarely such a blowup and the only factor that's really different here is that it's fat little Haru. There's so many developments for so many other more shall we say "treasured" main characters that I could spin as "forced" if I really wanted to, but why bother unless it's something I'm truly bothered by or actually feel I've been disenfranchised by witnessing happen. Anyway this episode has passed and from the next episode we're already seeing Haru take a different altogether new path so I'm tempted to say this argument is more or less becoming obsolete. I still say it's a whole lot of blood, sweat, anger and tears over a whole lot of nothing and that people overreacted big time like they always seem to when things don't go the way they expected them to or in the most entitled of scenarios the way they wanted them too. I'm sure I'll see even worse next week as well. P.S: I'd probably be willing to acknowledge some of the posters grievances here if they actually own them more instead of trying to project it back onto the show as it's fault and that's it's all because of the shows "bad writing" and nothing at all to do with how they are perceiving it. Now of course people have to actual try to prove this point since they've taken it up and frankly I don't think they've been doing a very good job of convincing anyone. Quote:
Last edited by Kaioshin Sama; 2012-07-30 at 12:10. |
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2012-07-30, 21:29 | Link #159 | |
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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Now, to your point. In my view, the only reason this third arc can happen is because of the way Haru gained his powers in the first arc, which is no less of a "because the plot requires" than what we saw here. Cyan Pile arc: - Haru is on the verge of defeat; all hope is lost - He vows to keep on fighting because it's the only thing he can do - He conveniently gains his wings at the moment of his greatest need - He uses his wings to win the fight Dusk Taker arc: - Haru is being harassed and things look bad, but he fundamentally believes he can win in the Accelerated World because of his wings, and will show his opponent a thing a two - He makes a tactical error and allows Dusk Taker to use his special ability - He loses the wings right when he thought things were going in his favour - He is devastated and can't find the will to keep fighting So I suppose you could say "in the first arc, when he was down in the dirt, he still found the will to fight, so why not here?" But I think it's precisely because time has passed and he remembers that, before he had his wings, he was hopeless. (He only won that fight after he got his wings; to that point he was losing soundly.) It's different to find inner strength when you have nothing than it is to remember that when you just lost the symbol and manifestation of that very power/strength. So this is why it's important for Haru to go back to having nothing again. It's a story of appreciating what you have, and him understanding that his wings were never really the source of his power (or why he really won that first fight) in the first place. If it weren't for the exact way the first arc developed, the development here wouldn't make any sense. So I don't think that this is a step backwards for his character development, but rather something that builds progressively on what we've already seen. It does very much "take into account all advances made previously on [his] character". Of course, as I said, I certainly concede that him needed to lose that fight was no less contrived than him needing to win the fight with Cyan Pile. And if you want to make an argument, as some did, that Dusk Taker's bullying is flimsy and seemingly easy-to-defeat, I can certainly entertain that (I said something similar in the previous week's thread). But I think it is perfectly reasonable -- and yes more appropriate -- for people to see how the overall plot development builds on the previous arcs than to claim that it's a regression of character. Whether I've "seen better" is totally irrelevant to that argument.
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2012-07-31, 05:34 | Link #160 | |||||||
cho~ kakkoii
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 3rd Planet
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-07-31 at 10:08. Reason: Double post? ^^; |
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