American Comics Today

[delirium]

Originally Posted by Royal_Devil

Used to be, "The only people who stay dead in comics, are Bucky, Jason Todd, and Uncle Ben."

Now it's just Uncle Ben

I like what they've done with Bucky though. It's not as bad as let us say, Jason Todd's retcon. He was brought back to life by Superboy-Prime punching reality, the retcon punch! At least Marvel attempted to give us a decent story explaining Bucky Barnes > Winter Soldier.

[scraggy]

yeah because superboy prime PUNCHED JASON TODD BACK TO LIFE
seriously i hate jason todd so much oh my god


on another note I picked up Brightest Day 10 and GL 55 and 56 the other day and I am starting to really dig this storyline again.

[Samari]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

Sazae-san doesn't look at all like modern manga, and it's in strip form. It's more like Calvin and Hobbes then any of the modern manga we know.

I think it's still considered by many to be part of the modern form of manga. Comics in the forties here in American don't look like what you'd pick up today, but they'll still considered the same type of medium and sequential storytelling.

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

Superman is, as is Batman, but what about the Green Lantern? Flash? A few famous comic characters are very iconic, as is Astro-boy in Japan, but comic book characters in themselves are not. Manga has much more presence in Japan then Comic Books do in the West, that is my core point.

And your point is flawed. I just proved that. The fact that I named one should be enough. Green Lantern, Flash, Wonder Woman...they're all irrelevant. I have the feeling if I gave you ten you'd ask for 100. Manga has much more presence in Japan yes. It's more embedded in their culture (due to the absence of things like high quality television, movies, etc. compared to the West in the early part of the 20th century). I think we already went over that. But I'm saying on a world wide scale no anime/manga character comes close to the dominance in terms of recognition that Superman has. There is no debating that.

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

If video games are so amazing then how kids still go outside and play with such primitive things as balls. Also most computer games are NOT aimed at kids. It's still mario and Tetris for them. Most parents won't let their 5 year olds near Halo or GTA. Likewise what kids play WOW? I don't think I can imagine any 5 year olds ever playing something like that, or persuading their parents to give up a monthly fee. Kids are an entirely different ballgame to Teenagers, which is what you're describing. Also I've been playing games for years now, and I love them dearly, but they're not significantly better now then they were in 1995, they certainly look better, but gameplay is of a similiar quality (albeit more streamlined).

Because not everyone can afford it obviously. Not to mention people still have other interested. I never implied people don't go outside anymore. I did imply that people that do play video games to a good degree are more prone to playing all day now and days with the type of games that are available. The gaming industry has evolved so much in just the past 15 years it's ridiculous. And there are plenty of games aimed at people of all ages. As for parents, it's subjective depending on the area. Even here in America. You can't speak for most parents in this kind of country that is so diverse with varying types of social classes combined with varying culture types. It's nice that your sharing your opinion about your experience in gaming, but you're only one person.

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

I'M NOT ADVOCATING MAKING ALL COMICS CAMPY, just some comics. If you can't get kids into reading comics, then comic will die. People tend to continue as adults, hobbies they had as kids. You could make your arguments with the Teenage market, but not with kids, as kids across the world are exactly the same (bar language). If American comics produced now for kids are failing, it's because they're not doing it right. They're not marketting it right, they're not producing the right content, they're not getting it into public places where kids can find them. But if the comic is good, the kid will read it. Kids are bored all the time, hell they'll even read normal books with the right encouragement. Look at the continued success Dr. Suess continues to have.

You were advocating making a lot of mainstream titles campy. Yeah I'm sure that is really going to do huge favors for the industry now. This isn't the 1950's anymore. If comics went back to that kind of style, weak storytelling, and watered down uninteresting plots with awful dialogue the industry would be in worse shape than it is now. It would be like insulting modern day society's intellect. If anything it's the accessibility that has been an issue. But not the lack of it being campy within the stories themselves. That's ridiculous.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Samari

You were advocating making a lot of mainstream titles campy. Yeah I'm sure that is really going to do huge favors for the industry now. This isn't the 1950's anymore. If comics went back to that kind of style, weak storytelling, and watered down uninteresting plots with awful dialogue the industry would be in worse shape than it is now. It would be like insulting modern day society's intellect. If anything it's the accessibility that has been an issue. But not the lack of it being campy within the stories themselves. That's ridiculous.

You're misreading me. I never said all or most should be campy. Just some. There's a simple joy in clean, ridiculous, fun. The closest thing in Comics today is Deadpool, and even he's a bit too bloody for all ages.

I'm not saying we should go back to watered down plots and uninteresting storytelling. You can have good camp. Half of comedy is based around it. Asterix and Obelix is one of the best comics out there, and it's damn campy. Nothing wrong with it. Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is another example of something that's campy and good. The two are not incompatible.

Heck even today a lot of comics are pretty campy. But they combine their camp with grittyness that isolates it from the core audience that made Comics great in the first place: kids. If you lose the child demographic, comics are dead. Maybe not immediately, but in the long term. X-men and Iron Man will cease to exist outside of the movies. As it is they already make more money from licensing then from the comics themselves. In Japan Manga sales are still respectable.

I am advocating more comics all round. But more of a variety of genres. More genres that can pull in more readers. But I'm not saying that by doing so you'll be reducing the number of current comics being published. By producing more camp, we don't produce less serious fare. We can just produce the same amount of serious fare, and produce stuff oriented for kids.

[Samari]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

You're misreading me. I never said all or most should be campy. Just some. There's a simple joy in clean, ridiculous, fun. The closest thing in Comics today is Deadpool, and even he's a bit too bloody for all ages.

I'm not saying we should go back to watered down plots and uninteresting storytelling. You can have good camp. Half of comedy is based around it. Asterix and Obelix is one of the best comics out there, and it's damn campy. Nothing wrong with it. Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is another example of something that's campy and good. The two are not incompatible.

Heck even today a lot of comics are pretty campy. But they combine their camp with grittyness that isolates it from the core audience that made Comics great in the first place: kids. If you lose the child demographic, comics are dead. Maybe not immediately, but in the long term. X-men and Iron Man will cease to exist outside of the movies. As it is they already make more money from licensing then from the comics themselves. In Japan Manga sales are still respectable.

I am advocating more comics all round. But more of a variety of genres. More genres that can pull in more readers. But I'm not saying that by doing so you'll be reducing the number of current comics being published. By producing more camp, we don't produce less serious fare. We can just produce the same amount of serious fare, and produce stuff oriented for kids.

You're going to have to define good camp then. At least to you. Like would your definition still involve killing? Or instances were people die? Do you omit bad language? Because you take things like that out and you lose a huge core of your audience. Most notably the adults. Let's face it, it's the real world out there. People have sex, die, and use foul language. Comic books are just taking a realistic take on what is actually happening on this planet in terms of social behavior. Like Stan Lee always said "keep it current". And the comic books today aren't even that bad in terms of material. It also depends what you pick up. You get something like Moon Knight, that is goin going to be pretty dark. You get something like Superman, you're most likely fine.

Comic books have not had a huge interest from children for about twenty years yet they're still here. I doubt they cease to exist "outside of movies". Especially when characters that have been around for a long time are used in merchandising and other aspects like video games, toys, etc. The format of the medium (the monthly periodical) is hurting comics more than anything else. Trade paperbacks are much more convenient and logical. Manga you're getting 200 plus pages for about $14 or whatever. Comics you're paying around $3 for 22 pages. It's just a matter of time and getting a format that is more suited for today's economy. But the audience isn't really the problem. Just the marketing to it's current type of audience. Like I said, availability in purely specialty shops instead of places like Borders makes it more difficult.

[Sumeragi]

The only series I had any love for were the Sonic the Hedgehog comics.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Samari

You're going to have to define good camp then. At least to you. Like would your definition still involve killing? Or instances were people die? Do you omit bad language? Because you take things like that out and you lose a huge core of your audience. Most notably the adults. Let's face it, it's the real world out there. People have sex, die, and use foul language. Comic books are just taking a realistic take on what is actually happening on this planet in terms of social behavior. Like Stan Lee always said "keep it current". And the comic books today aren't even that bad in terms of material. It also depends what you pick up. You get something like Moon Knight, that is goin going to be pretty dark. You get something like Superman, you're most likely fine.

Realistic stories for Adults. Less realistic stories for children. It has to be unrealistic enough that parents would be willing to let their kids read em. If you don't like it, you can keep reading the already existing "adult" Comics you know and love. There's nothing wrong with dark comics, but something like Superman, which was written to epitomise light heroics, should be kept relatively light. No talking about political issues or anything. That or they should write something like shazam.

Comic books have not had a huge interest from children for about twenty years yet they're still here. I doubt they cease to exist "outside of movies". Especially when characters that have been around for a long time are used in merchandising and other aspects like video games, toys, etc. The format of the medium (the monthly periodical) is hurting comics more than anything else. Trade paperbacks are much more convenient and logical. Manga you're getting 200 plus pages for about $14 or whatever. Comics you're paying around $3 for 22 pages. It's just a matter of time and getting a format that is more suited for today's economy. But the audience isn't really the problem. Just the marketing to it's current type of audience. Like I said, availability in purely specialty shops instead of places like Borders makes it more difficult.

The format is hurting their sales, but it's also true that it's also the material. It's far too gritty to appeal to the child market, and it's also far too expensive. If you compare to Japan, they put out tankobon for about 300 yen, and the weekly shonen jump is also 300 yen (or so). If you consider that that's 20 series each with 20 pages in an issue, that's good value (400 pages for ~3 dollars!). Of course you can't get prices down like that unless you have circulations in the millions.

But if you can't get kids reading them again comics will just die a slow death. With out any new readership they'll just age themselves out of the market. Already more people are associating these properties with their movie counterparts then their original format. So they might continue as film series, but they might die in their original medium. Look at James Bond. The books it was originally based on are not exactly best sellers, compared to the movies.

[Samari]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

Realistic stories for Adults. Less realistic stories for children. It has to be unrealistic enough that parents would be willing to let their kids read em. If you don't like it, you can keep reading the already existing "adult" Comics you know and love. There's nothing wrong with dark comics, but something like Superman, which was written to epitomise light heroics, should be kept relatively light. No talking about political issues or anything. That or they should write something like shazam.

But titles like that already exist. Superman Adventures was in production not too long ago. Young Justice is currently in production. I think "The Batman" might still be going too. There are a good amount of comics geared towards children with a lot of the "main" heroes. The reality you want already exists. Marvel and DC both have acting publishing titles for children.

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

The format is hurting their sales, but it's also true that it's also the material. It's far too gritty to appeal to the child market, and it's also far too expensive. If you compare to Japan, they put out tankobon for about 300 yen, and the weekly shonen jump is also 300 yen (or so). If you consider that that's 20 series each with 20 pages in an issue, that's good value (400 pages for ~3 dollars!). Of course you can't get prices down like that unless you have circulations in the millions.

But if you can't get kids reading them again comics will just die a slow death. With out any new readership they'll just age themselves out of the market. Already more people are associating these properties with their movie counterparts then their original format. So they might continue as film series, but they might die in their original medium. Look at James Bond. The books it was originally based on are not exactly best sellers, compared to the movies.

Like I said, comics are still here. It's not the material, it's the format and marketing in terms of finance and location. I already explained why. Pretty simple to comprehend. If you don't want to accept it, that's on you. You can believe what you'd like. American comics have been gritty since the mid eighties. And there are still a lot of American comics geared towards younger ages. And seeing as how movies have gotten better and more exciting over the years, it's not hard to see why people relate to them more so. As a matter of fact it's always been this way. Movies are more popular than any kind of comic period. Or even book for that matter now and days. Not to mention you only have to pay to see it once and not follow a story month after month for years and years. Only takes two hours of your time and you are getting a performance from real people. When was a comic book ever more exciting than a movie? People are always looking forward towards a movie than a book. Even for something as epic as Harry Potter.

[AnimeFan188]

"“The comic book industry is made up of freelancers. I think a lot of readers don’t
understand the extent of that reality,” Cain said. “Certainly any comic book by Marvel
or DC, those are the work of freelancers: Colorists, inkers, pencilers, letterers, cover
artists, and writers. The editors work for the company. The freelancers don’t. Maybe
some of them have exclusive contracts, which means that they get a little bit more
money per page, and absolutely no benefits or protections, plus they don’t get to work
for anyone else — but basically, every comic you pick up has been made by someone
without health insurance. But these freelancers are still expected to behave like
employees. They are told what to say and when to say it… I’ve said it before, but this
whole industry is a class-action lawsuit waiting to happen. It’s astonishing.”"

See:

https://io9.gizmodo.com/chelsea-cain...s-c-1829083907


Is that what it's coming to? A class-action lawsuit?

[AnimeFan188]

Who’s to Blame For Falling Comics Sales? And What’s to be Done?
Brian Hibbs at ComicsPRO:

"We ran the full text of Bob Wayne‘s Keynote speech at comic book retailer advocacy
meeting ComicsPRO last weekend in Charlotte, North Carolina. But he wasn’t the only
one making speeches. Brian Hibbs, owner of the Comix Experience stores in San
Francisco has had a disproportionate effect on the comics industry. His decision to
launch a class action lawsuit against Marvel Comics changed the way publishers
distributed their comics forever. His comics retailer opinions, columns and analysis are
shared far and wide. So when he got up to give a ‘state of the industry’ speech at
ComicsPRO, the assembled retailers listened. Hard. This is what he said,"

See:

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/02...bbs-comicspro/

[AnimeFan188]

More on the dark side of the Comics Industry:

Inside the Comic Book Industry’s Sexual Misconduct Crisis—and the Ugly,
Exploitative History That Got It Here:

"The month of June saw the comics industry rocked by successive waves of predatory
conduct allegations, amid similar reckonings around sexual harassment in the
affiliated worlds of video games, twitch streaming, tabletop games, professional
wrestling, and professional illustration. Some of the allegations, as with superstar
writer Warren Ellis, were new. Others brought renewed scrutiny to lingering problems
like the allegations against Dark Horse editor Scott Allie and DC writer Scott Lobdell.
Most of the stories came from marginalized creators who’d previously been silent for
fear of being blacklisted. In June, that wall of silence cracked, and what showed
beneath was red and raw and deeply, viscerally angry.

“A huge reason why abusive, predatory, and discriminatory practices go unchecked in
the comics industry is this: the impetus is always put on the victims to come forward,”
Maï wrote in an email to The Daily Beast. “Victims are expected to speak out at great
personal cost—at risk of losing jobs and damaging their financial livelihood, at
detriment to their mental health and threats to their personal safety… For every story
you hear, there is also an unimaginable amount more that are not heard.” (Stewart
did not respond to The Daily Beast’s request for comment.)

There have been many conversations over the past month about how to change the
culture of the comics industry. But June’s storm of allegations is not a sign that the
comics industry is broken. It's a sign that it's running precisely as designed."

See:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/warren...-book-industry

[AnimeFan188]

Prolific Batman Writer Chuck Dixon Explains Why Manga Is Wiping
The Floor With American Comics

"Long time Batman scribe and the co-creator of Bane Chuck Dixon recently explained
why Japanese manga is wiping the floor with American comics.

Dixon recently uploaded his 65th episode of Ask Chuck Dixon to his YouTube channel
where Ricardo Garcia asked him, “What is your theory/thoughts on why Manga is
wiping the floor with American comics?”

Dixon answered, “It’s not too hard to figure out, really. There’s a lot of dedication,
passion, and craft in manga comics. And that’s missing, almost entirely, from the Big
Two.”

He elaborated, “Marvel and DC still run the store here. They still are the market leaders.
And unfortunately, there is no variety there. There’s nothing really different. There’s not
something for everybody the way there is in manga.”

Dixon then touted the artwork in manga, “It’s not hard to see. The artwork is
attractive. It’s different. It’s engaging. It’s interesting. It’s varied. So there’s a lot of
reasons to like manga.”

“And not a whole lot of reasons to like what’s out now. Because what’s out now, for
the Big Two, is, for the most part, poorly crafted. There’s a few exceptions, but for the
most part, it’s poorly crafted, poorly conceived, there’s an obvious political agenda to
everything, and there’s no variety.”"

See:

https://boundingintocomics.com/2021/...erican-comics/

[Magin]

Reading back through this thread... it's a shame most of the users here are now long gone. Otherwise I'd LOVE to hear how they'd respond to an industry insider pointing that yeah, "Manga is overcoming American comics for all these reasons"

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

It's really not all that surprising. Manga has super-mega-ultra variety of content with compelling stories & characters which is something that the current US comics can only dream of having. All that manga industry needed to overtake the US comic industry was good translation & good distribution (which now it has, and we can see the result).

Meanwhile, DC & Marvel are still busy rebooting & reinventing their superheroes & "people in costumes"-comics to the point where they're stuck & ruined in the eyes of their fans and not being good enough to attract new readers. They pretty much sabotaged themselves and gave manga the market on a silver platter.

[AnimeFan188]

Superstar Batman Comics Writers Flee To Substack

"Two of the biggest names in comics have made high profile deals with Substack,
joining journalists and critics betting on the nascent newsletter industry.

Writers involved in this new push into the comics industry include critically
acclaimed talent like Molly Knox Ostertag, Saladin Ahmed, Scott Snyder, and James
Tynion IV. Tynion wrote in his first newsletter post that he declined an exclusive
contract with DC to work on Batman in favor of signing with Substack."


"It is certainly true that the economics of comic book writing are dire, and one of
the central reasons why superstar creators are decamping to Substack is the
opportunity not just to own but to exploit their own work Yesterday, theGuardian
reported that many of the creators handling the most popular characters in comics
—whose stories and characters underwrite billion-dollar Hollywood franchises—are
not seeing the economic returns on that work from Marvel or DC, the two biggest
comic book companies in America. Sources told the Guardian that often the most
that these writers will see from Marvel if their work is used as the basis for further
derivative works like movies and television shows is a check for $5,000 and an
invite to the premiere."

See:

https://www.vice.com/en/article/5db4...ee-to-substack