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Lenneth4 · 2012-10-20, 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azuma Denton

So actually they are the descendants from scientist that wanna preserve the knowledge of the old civilization? And as the precaution measure to prevent the PK-wielders going berserk is:
- having a sexual relationship
- puts a restriction in human genes so that liver will stop working if getting to agigated

Hmm kinda interesting...
Will need to rewatch it because kinda lost in the middle of the explanation.

yeah
it was a bit complicated

deadite · 2012-10-20, 14:43

looks like Satoru and Saki will have their little sex scene from the PV in the next ep.

Dr. Casey · 2012-10-20, 14:52

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You have my sympathies.

No need to condescend, he explained what he meant in his next post.

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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

One of the reasons it worked for me is that SSY actually found a way to take the obligatory extraneous expository speech and make it fit perfectly with the plot. That's no small feat.

I'm actually pretty confused as to how the fact that so much history is told rather than shown is considered a bad thing by so many. Aside from the fact that "Show, don't tell" is just a good rule of thumb rather than an absolute, unbreakable rule (The rule isn't meant to say "You can never tell the viewer anything no matter what the context of the scene, ever!"), and that there's nothing wrong with the scene or the viewing experience itself unless you just feel like bringing up the fact that the scene goes against some rule that college professors tell you, and that the basic essence of the scene centers around the kids being 'told' so many disturbing, worldview-altering things in one fell swoop and in that sense would be much less effective if it adhered to so-called 'proper' storytelling technique... aside from all that, how exactly are you supposed to 'show' something that transpired centuries and centuries ago? I don't see how you convey milennia-old history through any other means than telling.

Kazu-kun · 2012-10-20, 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadite

looks like Satoru and Saki will have their little sex scene from the PV in the next ep.

The PV doesn't show any sex, just Satoru touching some skin. We don't know how far things will go from there so let's not get carried away.

Triple_R · 2012-10-20, 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malkuth

So did the inquisitors and witch-hunters

... Why are you equating him with inquisitors and witch-hunters?

Those Queerats certainly seemed to be posing a serious threat. And as for lying to the kids, well, like I said, they weren't handling that new info well.

Given what PKers did to humanity and civilization in this world, don't you think that they should be handled with extreme care?

I'm certainly not defending everything this society is doing, but after several hundreds of years of horrors visited upon humanity by PKers, I can understand wanting to be very careful when it comes to the education and raising of young PKers.

orion · 2012-10-20, 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadite

looks like Satoru and Saki will have their little sex scene from the PV in the next ep.

It also doesn't look like she was happy with the situation so I hope that the out of context scene has a good resolution.

Dr. Casey · 2012-10-20, 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

... Why are you equating him with inquisitors and witch-hunters?

Those Queerats certainly seemed to be posing a serious threat. And as for lying to the kids, well, like I said, they weren't handling that new info well.

Given what PKers did to humanity and civilization in this world, don't you think that they should be handled with extreme care?

Hell yeah, this is just like Madoka again with Triple debating about the morality of shaded-in-gray characters. Those were some good times, especially considering that Shinsekai Yori is probably the type of story that will remain firmly rooted in shades of gray, wheras a certain white rabbit turned out to be... well...

Maybe you and Kaijo can recreate your Defense Attorney team, this time in defense of the PK society's government?

Grey · 2012-10-20, 15:05

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Originally Posted by Malkuth

Also it is a shame that the anime took a family-friendly approach and skipped some material in favor of apes. I guess now those five pages of hot yuri action make a lot more sense to mature readers

It was skipped? Curses!

Malkuth · 2012-10-20, 15:07

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Originally Posted by Triple_R

... Why are you equating him with inquisitors and witch-hunters?

I am not... they just have in a common the belief that they can massacre their peers in the name of some vague idea... they are not the only ones of course, human history has unfortunately countless examples.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Those Queerats certainly seemed to be posing a serious threat. And as for lying to the kids, well, like I said, they weren't handling that new info well.

Or the kids were raised in a way that they could never handle the truth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Given what PKers did to humanity and civilization in this world, don't you think that they should be handled with extreme care?

You are forgetting a very important detail... these kids are not human, but PKers. From their perspective they have handle the situation with extreme care.

Triple_R · 2012-10-20, 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

Hell yeah, this is just like Madoka again with Triple debating about the morality of shaded-in-gray characters. Those were some good times, especially considering that Shinsekai Yori is probably the type of story that will remain firmly rooted in shades of gray, wheras a certain white rabbit turned out to be... well...

Maybe you and Kaijo can recreate your Defense Attorney team, this time in defense of the PK society's government?

Well, all I know, is that after Mr. "The First 100 People That Stop Clapping For Me Will Get Burned to Death... ~Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!~", I'd be kind of worried about young PKers going out of control too.

And that's not even getting into the illustrious career of the very first PKer...

Don't get me wrong, I'm supporting our main protagonists too, but if any situation ever called for a tightly controlled learning and living environment... This world could really use a Charles Xavier...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malkuth

You are forgetting a very important detail... these kids are not human, but PKers. From their perspective they have handle the situation with extreme care.

I should make clear here that my current speculation is that the society of this world was (at least initially) designed to ensure that nobody like "Emperor Delight" could ever rise again.

Where I'm a bit divided is that I'm not sure if this is a society for PKers ran by PKers, or if it's a society for PKers ran (mostly) by normal humans. I was leaning towards the latter before, but given that the monk himself was clearly a PKer and one who's job it is to enforce the rules of this society, it does seem like at least some of the people calling the shots in this society are PKers themselves.

Kazu-kun · 2012-10-20, 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

I'm actually pretty confused as to how the fact that so much history is told rather than shown is considered a bad thing by so many. Aside from the fact that "Show, don't tell" is just a good rule of thumb rather than an absolute, unbreakable rule.

It's neither an absolute rule nor just a rule of thumb. It's device to naturalize the exposition. It's not the only one though.

Why does the infodumping in this episode work so well? As Guardian Enzo said, it's because it fits with the plot, but more specifically because it feels that it was meant more for the kids than for us the audience. We had already guessed most of what was told thanks to all the foreshadowing, so for us it was mostly a confirmation. For the kids, on the other hand, learning all that stuff was a life-changing event.

Now if your infodumping is just an easy way to tell the audience about the plot, your storytelling is failing big time.

Triple_R · 2012-10-20, 15:30

"Show, don't tell" is mainly applied for things that are intended to have emotional impact.

A classic example - Don't just have characters talk about how corrupt and evil a villainous character is, but rather show that character being corrupt and evil.

Episode 2 showing us a small snippet of Emperor Delight in all his glory adds a lot of emotional oomph! to the info that this episode delivers. That Episode 2 scene brings to life the words that the library creature was saying in this episode, and so it makes Episode 4 more intense as well.

But some other pieces of information, such as humanity breaking down into four distinct groups throughout Japan, is something that can be presented in a straightforward "tell" way because it's just something that's good to know, and not something that the audience is necessarily meant to have strong feelings about.

Apart from all of that, Kazu-kun pretty much nails why the exposition works very well in this episode.

SQA · 2012-10-20, 15:31

PKers that understood the history might take it upon themselves to prevent a repeat of the disaster, if they're in a stable situation now. But they're using the "keep them stupid" approach for the mass of PKers, which treats them slightly above livestock. This isn't a world where "human rights" concepts carry much weight. It's a very devolved world, socially speaking.

Though with much of the way their Village is run, I'd gather that they're managing the creation of "useful" PKers. Which suggests more towards at least some non-PKer involvement. The PKers want to survive, but they also don't want to repeat what has happened before. Rough spot to be in, really.

Kaoru Chujo · 2012-10-20, 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by SQA

PKers that understood the history might take it upon themselves to prevent a repeat of the disaster, if they're in a stable situation now. But they're using the "keep them stupid" approach for the mass of PKers, which treats them slightly above livestock. This isn't a world where "human rights" concepts carry much weight. It's a very devolved world, socially speaking....

And a world that might look something like our own future, if nanotechnology ends up allowing smart otaku to create weapons of mass destruction in a garage. And that is a distinct possibility, I believe. If it got to that, I think the terrorism scare of the last ten years would look like a children's picnic, and we'd have a lot of jackboots and public security men breaking down doors and carting the weird away.

AzureWrath · 2012-10-20, 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malkuth

Or the kids were raised in a way that they could never handle the truth.

They must be able to handle the truth. The adults have been shown to take part in the culling of their community. Sooner or later these children must be exposed to this history and how their society works.

At the very least, they are expected to be able to cope with offing the less desirable members of their community.

Blonto · 2012-10-20, 16:17

While I found it interesting, I did think the whole exposition thing went on for a tad too long. Almost half the episode was characters standing and listening to this creature. Surely they could've made the whole thing a bit more diverse and find a way to visually represent some things.
But this much exposition was definitively necessary so I think they handled it pretty well. It wasn't boring since it was pretty epic in proportions.

Malkuth · 2012-10-20, 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzureWrath

They must be able to handle the truth. The adults have been shown to take part in the culling of their community. Sooner or later these children must be exposed to this history and how their society works.

At the very least, they are expected to be able to cope with offing the less desirable members of their community.

That is not the impression Saki's parents left me with

In any "closed" society that needs that much control of information (whether the reasons are justified or not) it is natural that the average member would be unable to handle the truth. There are countless contemporary and historical examples of societies crumbling under the pressure of freedom because they "conditioned" its members to handle a very limited world presented without any sort of uncertainties.

ars89 · 2012-10-20, 19:30

So the bakenzeumi are what the normal humans turned into. So i'm guessing the scientists are not in charge anymore since the library was burned by that priest.

Kirroha · 2012-10-20, 20:24

Woah, the first half of the episode was a lot of infodumping, but it was cool. Hmmm so we get a 2 year timeskip for the next episode? I suppose Rijin dies or something and the kids could never go home?

Kazu-kun · 2012-10-20, 20:33

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Originally Posted by Kirroha

Hmmm so we get a 2 year timeskip for the next episode?

I don't think so. The characters in the preview still look like their current designs.

2012-10-20, 15:30	Link #532
Triple_R Senior Member Author Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Newfoundland, Canada Age: 42	"Show, don't tell" is mainly applied for things that are intended to have emotional impact. A classic example - Don't just have characters talk about how corrupt and evil a villainous character is, but rather show that character being corrupt and evil. Episode 2 showing us a small snippet of Emperor Delight in all his glory adds a lot of emotional oomph! to the info that this episode delivers. That Episode 2 scene brings to life the words that the library creature was saying in this episode, and so it makes Episode 4 more intense as well. But some other pieces of information, such as humanity breaking down into four distinct groups throughout Japan, is something that can be presented in a straightforward "tell" way because it's just something that's good to know, and not something that the audience is necessarily meant to have strong feelings about. Apart from all of that, Kazu-kun pretty much nails why the exposition works very well in this episode. __________________

2012-10-20, 19:30	Link #538
ars89 One-Eyed Dragon Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: NJ, USA	So the bakenzeumi are what the normal humans turned into. So i'm guessing the scientists are not in charge anymore since the library was burned by that priest. __________________ My Anime List

2012-10-20, 20:24	Link #539
Kirroha Just... disturbed. Join Date: Dec 2009	Woah, the first half of the episode was a lot of infodumping, but it was cool. Hmmm so we get a 2 year timeskip for the next episode? I suppose Rijin dies or something and the kids could never go home? __________________ Play RE: Prince of Nigeria here!

2012-10-20, 14:43	Link #522
deadite Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2010	looks like Satoru and Saki will have their little sex scene from the PV in the next ep.

2012-10-20, 15:31	Link #533
SQA Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2012	PKers that understood the history might take it upon themselves to prevent a repeat of the disaster, if they're in a stable situation now. But they're using the "keep them stupid" approach for the mass of PKers, which treats them slightly above livestock. This isn't a world where "human rights" concepts carry much weight. It's a very devolved world, socially speaking. Though with much of the way their Village is run, I'd gather that they're managing the creation of "useful" PKers. Which suggests more towards at least some non-PKer involvement. The PKers want to survive, but they also don't want to repeat what has happened before. Rough spot to be in, really.

2012-10-20, 16:17	Link #536
Blonto Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Age: 31	While I found it interesting, I did think the whole exposition thing went on for a tad too long. Almost half the episode was characters standing and listening to this creature. Surely they could've made the whole thing a bit more diverse and find a way to visually represent some things. But this much exposition was definitively necessary so I think they handled it pretty well. It wasn't boring since it was pretty epic in proportions.