2009-12-18, 11:21 | Link #6961 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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and almost losing his life because of it several times you can argue about the last few months of his service in them (where he was actually the LEADER of the group), but you can take away everything he did beforehand simply because he made a stupid decision out of fear P.S not being honorable =/= deserving karmic retribution you actually have to kick (or possibly rape) a few dogs to earn that one
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2009-12-18, 12:40 | Link #6963 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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you need to remember that he is NOT all that wrong in that regard at least, he would have been entirely correct in season 1 and while Lelouch might have had something of a change of heart in season 2, does not cancel out the fact that everything he actually DID in season 2 makes him look even worse (leaving the OOBK in jail for a year, blackmailing villeta, massacring the geass cult) assuming he was RIGHT about lelouch, which if this was season 1, he WOULD be his actions are completely in line with what you'd expect protect the cause, japan, at any cost.
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2009-12-18, 13:05 | Link #6964 |
Spinning Lotus
Join Date: Jul 2008
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There's nothing wrong with blackmailing Villetta. She's the enemy, and complicit in keeping him trapped under a false persona. Now, Ohgi consorting with her is wrong, because he's a leader in the Black Knights and should know better. That's a disturbing lapse in competence that went completely unnoticed. Leaving the Black Knights in jail for a year was not Lelouch fault, directly anyway, and he did get them back out. The Geass Cult is the only unequivocally evil thing he did was the massacre, and even that could be justified.
Ohgi's actions were selfish. He screwed over the entire UFN, and the Black Knights themselves, just to stay with Villetta. Diethard even notes it. All Ohgi was doing was protecting Villetta. Japan might as well have been an afterthought.
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2009-12-18, 13:06 | Link #6965 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
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Except for the following:
Lelouch was a former Britannian prince who relinquished his right to the throne, and in the process was exiled from Japan along with Nunnally to be used as political pawns. Not to mention the OoBK in jail for a year wasn't entirely his fault, due to his mindwiped memories. And Villetta is the biggest anti-reason, not to mention one of Ohgi's points of hypocrisy, since she was a Britannian spy who he secretly went AWOL and nearly let himself be killed by. (Not to mention that he let his guard down during the Black Rebellion when she showed up looking none too pleased to see him.) And regarding the blackmailing, it was a countermove to the fact that she was the head of the OSI division to watch over him following the Black Rebellion. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. And yet Ohgi doesn't get called on any of it. |
2009-12-18, 13:24 | Link #6968 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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unfortunately, here is what OUGI knows Lelouch was an EXILED britannian prince who, consumed with his anger at his exile, highjacked the japanese liberation movement under the pretense of wanting to free japan, because that way he'll have LOTS of soldiers fighting for him he then proceeds to eliminated every other resistance group in order to make him the ONLY player in town, and the kills his own sister after making her massacre Japanese people in a bid to rally people to act he nevertheless ditched the entire operation in the middle of the battle for whatever reason, and waited until the time was right to start over he has a power that allows him to mind-control to do whatever he wants them to, and has in the past used this power on his enemies, allies, and even his own family whenever it suited him to do so and here is the key point as far as ougi knows, he is USING the OOBK for his own goals, and intends to later on dispose of them once they have outlived their usefulness, just like he did with the JLF he has no real reason to free japan, but is simply using the japanese people for his own bid for the throne and once, confronted with these accusations, he ADMITS them while laughing like a madman you need to remember that what WE the viewers know, is not the same as what the characters know and if what ougi knew was actually the TRUTH, then his actions are almost entirely justified in trying to get rid of him P.S a wartime leader and a peacetime leader or not the same thing often enough, someone who is great during times of war, is a bad choice to run a country during times of peace
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2009-12-18, 14:26 | Link #6969 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
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True enough. It would have helped if you made the distinction of it coming from Ohgi's POV in the first place.
While I agree that leading during wartime =/= leading during peacetime are different, Ohgi never seemed to be much of a leader to begin with. He's generally a figurehead for the common man. Going back to your past point about dishonorable =/= deserving karmic retribution, you never know what Gino may have been responsible outside of canon. At the very least, killing Senba outside of the direct rules of engagement won't do him any favors. |
2009-12-18, 14:35 | Link #6970 |
Spinning Lotus
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Generally, while a good military leader may not make a good peacetime leader, a poor military leader is no more likely to be good in the civilian sector than he is in a warzone.
Ohgi's POV is all fine and dandy, but it doesn't excuse the utter lack of due process Lelouch is shown. At the very least, for what he has done for good at least earns him the chance to give his side of the story. Their complete unwillingness to even let him talk turns what would have been a valid mutiny into a sorry excuse for a panicked overreaction.
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2009-12-18, 14:39 | Link #6971 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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well...
killing an enemy soldier on the battlefield is hardly grounds for karmic retribution by the same token, the mere fact that he has a flight enabled 8th gen mecha vs grounded enemies is alone enough to make it "unsporting" thats just how battle IS it doesn't score him any points in making him likable or honorable but it hardly counts as kick the dog (especially given that he also comments about how he dislikes this sort of thing after doing it) as for whatever he did off screen, well, its we dont know what he did offscreen so its hard to judge him i doubt he was much worse then suzaku would have been (and clearly nowhere near the likes of bradly) as for ougi, cant really say if he's good enough to be PM not when you consider that MOST PM's aren't suited for the task either few elected leaders are really suited for the post for which they were elected especially since in politics you wont get anywhere without being a prick of epic proportions (thats what politics are) who knows, he ougi might even be an IMPROVEMENT at least he got elected for doing things OTHER then being the biggest snake in the political pool Quote:
thats the whole point but its not completely off base (it would have been completely fitting in season 1)
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2009-12-18, 21:17 | Link #6972 |
Spinning Lotus
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Only from a certain point of view. He genuinely intended to give Japan its freedom, and like it or not everything he's done for them makes their reaction entirely unjustified. A man who has done so much in service of their cause at least deserves the benefit of the doubt. Ohgi was whipped and towing the line for Villetta.
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2009-12-19, 12:07 | Link #6973 | |
Zeonic
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2009-12-19, 12:11 | Link #6974 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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they didn't join forces with shnizel until Lelouch ATTACKED them in ep 22
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2009-12-20, 03:29 | Link #6977 | ||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Schneizel was an enemy commander who approached the BK with 5 seconds of sound-only recording of a voice that kind of sounded like a guy they know MIGHT if he ever took of his mask, and dressed up guesswork documents. Schneizel's case pretty much amounted to selling the BK a rock that keeps tigers away. Even if the rock actually worked, the way it was marketed still makes the BK idiots for buying it, and they are in a position where they cannot afford to be idiots. |
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2009-12-20, 03:40 | Link #6979 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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what the viewers know and what ougi knows is not the same
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