After watching the episode it really wasn't as bad as others made it seem to be. The content was good as always, but the animation of the second half of the episode was bad. At least we got some character development for Araragi this episode, he really learned a valuable lesson.
I think the problem is that every week we get high quality episode from Shaft, that when a pretty bad episode comes out it feels really dissapointing. The episode itself was not bad, but compared to the previous episodes it really was lacking.
Well looking forward to Hanekawa's arc it should be interesting. One more thing bring Senjougahara back I miss her.
I dun really know how to express how it makes me feel, so that's all I'm gonna say about it. I didn't even like Nadeko last episode though. o_O
I don't partake in episode-rating in the first place, but yeah I don't really mind the missing animation. I knew what was up based on gg's release comments, and basically am just looking forward to the DVD releases. Seriously though, I am kinda surprised at the expressed rage/frustration. ? Shaft hasn't done anything deceptive here, and it'd be plain ridiculous to claim this was the result of laziness. It's pretty obvious they just screwed up in budgeting and/or planning, but hey that's alright, they'll fix it all up to their usual stunning quality not too long from now, right? This is just typical Shaft, and isn't the reason most of us are here because the actual content is worth it? Why get all worked up over it? Seriously.
Anyway, onto actual episode commentary. First, I agree that the idea that the guy who cursed Nadeko 'deserves' to have the snake sent back to him is ridiculous. Second, if I got it right, Koyomi says that the reason he isn't able to properly handle oddities like Oshino is because he's part oddity himself (10% vampire), right? And Oshino also says that Koyomi can become a normal human (presumably then able to exorcise oddities) simply by abandoning Shinobu. Thus the question that's been raised here for me, although all this talk about Koyomi 'growing up' and accepting he can't help everybody is very interesting, is the idea that Koyomi actually could gain the ability to help everybody if he would abandon Shinobu. It's basically a question of 'greater good' vs. 'lesser good' in terms of Koyomi's motivations. Neither option seems particularly progressive in terms of character growth, but this is logically the conflict I am interpreting Araragi to be facing, so I am just wondering whether this is actually what the show means to be communicating.
These are what I've read from another forum. They're the insider info from 2ch. Well, you can believe it or take it as a grain of salt. I also don't know how accurate it is but still...
- Episode which was aired on TOKYO MX had dozen of cuts.
- Many still images which were longer than usual could be considered as missing scenes.
- Don't expect too much from episode 11.
- Episode 10 was sent to broadcast channel not many hours before airing.
- Many parts which were considered as "Shaft effect" will be fixed.
- Please support DVD/Blu-ray... <_<
As I've already said, if it will be fixed in DVD/Blu-ray then I think it's no big deal. Fans will surly support them.
In other words, be patient, and critique the anime on its own merits (or lack of it, as was mainly the case in this episode) rather than in comparison with its literary source.
First of all, I deleted the post not because I think you made a point but because I want to avoid an unnecesary argument.
It seems that you agree that this episode is poorly made. OK. At least I found one thing that both of us can agree upon. Let me start from that point. While I was told that I repeatedly ignored etiquette, it's since last episode, I mean, starting the Nadeko arc, that I started to post actively in the episode discussion thread. It's not coincidental. Before the Nadeko arc, I just enjoyed reading other's opinions. Probably thanks to the lack of quality in this arc, however, it's changed. Watching the anime and reading posts are no fun anymore.
Now you talk about "critique the anime". One of unique characteristics of Japanese animations is that most of them, if not all, have original source such as manga, novel, game, etc. So the anime critique inevitably entail a comparison with its original source. As far as I understand, it's been like that in Japanese animation critique. OK, you may prefer to make a critique without referring to the original source, but I am afraid to say that it's just personal preference that others don't have to follow. Furthermore, I believe it's somewhat inevitable to talk about the original source especially when the anime goes horribly wrong. I may write a critique after the series ends. But as plot development needs a build-up process, critique needs it as well. So we need to be patient.
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf
Here's when I request kindly — again — for novel readers to keep their foreknowledge to themselves, or to discusss all they want to their hearts' content in the relevant thread. Frankly, as far as I can tell, you're the only one who still seems to repeatedly ignore this simple etiquette. The other novel readers have been quite considerate thus far. Learn by their example, please. Your points are interesting, of course, but 1) If the day ever comes when I'd want to read the novels myself, I rather you don't spoil them for me; 2) There's nothing more annoying than having someone coming in repeatedly to say how to show doesn't match the novel, and so on and so on.
I was said that I ignored simple "etiquette" "repeatedly". Hm, I don't mind being a rude person if necessary, but it's first time for me to hear that it was 'etiquette'. Let me make it clear that I am not talking about a spoiler policy. I agree that a spoiler for future events should be prohibited. But is a comparison between already-aired-animation and original novel counted in the same category? It's quite new to me. I had thought otherwise, because people would ask about the novel in relation to the aired episode. Also, the thread guideline does not mention anything like that. Anyway, I was not an active poster up until recently. So if I missed something, could someone enlighten me? If there is a rule regarding this matter, of course I will follow it. Before it's settled I will not post in this thread.
By the way, isn't it too absurd to say that it's annoying because "when I'd want to read the novels myself, I rather you don't spoil them for me"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf
Yes. I get the same feeling too, and I didn't have to read the novel to get to the same conclusion. As a few other posters had already observed, Bakemonogatari plays on themes that are familiar to adolescents, ideas that are actually quite familiar to anyone who has watched enough "coming-of-age" anime. These themes have been building up for some time now, at least as far back as Ep3, as fish eric observed, if not earlier.
Here, I do not know what you are talking about. Did I say that I am the first person who said Bakemonogatari is about adolescents? Did I say that you have to read a novel to get the conclusion, either? I wish I got a wrong impression. It will not be very pleasant to be accused of what I did not do. Who is talking about etiquette?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf
As for poor Nadeko-chan, yes, it's a bit of a pity that she's been sidelined by growing plot developments. She is cute, but as a character, she doesn't quite have the same depth as all of the other girls presented thus far. So, in a sense, she seems to be no more than a plot device. She is there to put Araragi in a position where he is forced, at last, to confront his own weaknesses head on.
I think it's the very example why we sometimes need to refer to original source. Actually I had intended to write about that. However.
Spoiler for why the Nadeko arc is worrying:
Right. Nadeko is a plot device in a sense. But I don't think that she was introduced to lead Araragi's development. Actually, when I read the Nadeko chapter, I thought by myself that "Yep, this is the reason why I liked (and suspected at the same time) Bakemonogatari!" - Of course, I don't think everybody will think the same way.
But that point was gone or at least blurred in the anime. It would have been clearer if relevant part of Oshino's dialogue had been included in the anime. It's just one or two lines. By removing a few lines, however, the focus of the arc has shifted to Araragi as can be found in your comments.
In fact, this type of trick started in episode 9. I don't think it's an issue of changing featuring order you mentioned. Instead, I believe it's because the animators want to lead the series to a certain conclusion, so they started a build-up for it from episode 9. Of course, the animators can change whatever they want. But I will be deeply upset if Bakemonogatari ends up as another cliche like this: a loser obtains super-natural power somehow, makes friends, gets hot girl(s), realizes his destiny, and then what?
In my very humble opinion (which are usually wrong ), the two discernible opinion expressed in the poll are correct. Nobody here is wrong for liking the episode, nor for disliking it. The poll gives us an imagery about the mindset of the fans who have been following this show thus far and the kind of things they have come to expect from this show.
I was attracted to this series because of the visualization in episode 1. I was attached to the story after episode 2. Episode 3 pretty much solidified the notion that I'll follow this series even though I knew very well Shaft won't be able to keep up with the visual as the series progresses deeper into the story. I definitely like the story, but the visualization is very important aspect for me to like this show. I'm one of the fans who voted low in the poll because I could not engage into the story due to the poor overall animated work. No way am I saying the story told in this episode was poor. It was very good, in fact, as usual. It's just that I'm attracted to this show and the story it's trying to tell because of the visual.
Now the audience who are finding this episode good, they are not wrong in anyway. Instead of the visual, they have conentrated on the story the episode told. From my perspective, that is very admirable. Fans like me voted low in the poll because the eye-candy was lacking. Fans who voted high did so because they have enjoyed the content. Those fans stayed focused. Me, I did not.
That said, however, am I wrong to vote low? I don't think I am. It reflected my emotion according to the episode I had access to in the present. Are those fans wrong for liking the episode for the story and voting accordingly? Absolutely not. Vexx, good ol' Vexx, already pointed out that once the visual-candy is fixed and then a first time viewer who watched the correct version of this episode comes to take a look at this poll, he/she will be confused at all these low votes.
Let's all get along because we are alllllll correct.
P.S. By the lack of visual eye-candy in the episode, I didn't include the OP. As far as me concerned, my liking/disliking of an episode never reflected on how good/bad the OP/ED sequence was. Am I better than you? Yes...?
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Kudara nai na! Sig by TheEroKing.
Calling on all Naruto fans, One Piece fans, and Shounen-fans in general... I got two words for you: One-Punch Man!
Executive member of the ASS. Ready to flee at the first sign of trouble.
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
@hei, I understand your quandary... but the moderator's have established protocol as "no novel/manga/source spoilers in the anime threads" *especially* when it pertains to future events (see Spoiler policy). They say such things can be discussed in the manga/novel threads or in subforum threads specifically designed for "experienced viewers" or "spoilers a-ok" threads:
I just noted that there isn't such a thread in this subforum (like there is for Haruhi).... probably we ought to request one for those who specifically want to compare the anime adaptation with its source material.
Back on topic, as for the scoring.... I think I've decided to average my rating of the storyline (9) and the visual (1) with some weights for a rounded rating of 7. The visual REALLY sucked. The story content/dialog stands well enough on its own and I'm not comparing it to any source material... just as a standalone effort of storytelling.
Honestly, Shinbo&team should stop being fluffed and praised for what is more and more appearing to be terrible budget/schedule skills that require such "artistic slide shows" to compensate in the series they take on.
Guys, the thread has been cleaned, but now please back on the actual Bakemonogatari episode 10 discussion. 70 off topic posts have been deleted (to my joy who spent 1/2 an hour on them), next time could you please try to restrain a little bit? Adding offtopicness to offtopicness only deters people who'd like to discuss the real content.
After watching the episode it really wasn't as bad as others made it seem to be. The content was good as always, but the animation of the second half of the episode was bad. At least we got some character development for Araragi this episode, he really learned a valuable lesson.
I think the problem is that every week we get high quality episode from Shaft, that when a pretty bad episode comes out it feels really dissapointing. The episode itself was not bad, but compared to the previous episodes it really was lacking.
Well looking forward to Hanekawa's arc it should be interesting. One more thing bring Senjougahara back I miss her.
True, compared to the other episodes, it does seem like something is a bit off (specially the one with the snake fightscene). That, and the fact that the Nadeko arc seemed short (a bit biased considering that she's one of my favorite characters).
They screwed up the second half very badly. The story was very emotional and Arararagi (oops I stuttered) screwing up and his guilt at the end was very good, unfortunately Shaft not doing their job properly detracted away from this scene and thus royally pissing me off. I would have rather they delayed this episode for a week so we get a final product then this half-assed animation. I pray to god it doesn't get worse for 11.
Araragi: I want to save everyone that I can (especially hot young girls), it sucks that I can't
Meme: I'm not gonna wipe your a*s forever
Kanbaru: Don't sacrifice yourself for a guy (a guy is not a hot chick)...
Nadeshiko: Koyomi-oniichan ♥
That's pretty much the entire episode.
All the key moments here are Araragi/Meme and Araragi/Kanbaru. Meme pretty much telling him to grow up and stop playing superhero and Kanbaru... well basically saying the same thing.
Nadeshiko is pretty much, by far, the least developed in BM. From what was shown, she is purely a victim of circumstance and nothing more. Her role seems to be only used to further Araragi's development and the Araragi/Kanbaru dynamic. Her character is pretty much a typical cookie cutter little sister onii-chan role, that's it.
Finally, I'll still put it out there, because it is a big part of this episode... the animation. Pretty OP, nothing else. Clearly an unfinished episode and everyone knows it. Pretty devastating and yet people are avoiding saying anything negative because of the 800-pound gorilla in the room. Anime tells a story through animation, the seiyuu are great, the sound producers try their hardest... but no amount of work is going to make up for clearly visible lack of animation... especially an action sequence. BM's broadcast future really isn't looking to bright right now and that makes me a little sad. And that's my opinion.
Finally, I'll still put it out there, because it is a big part of this episode... the animation. Pretty OP, nothing else. Clearly an unfinished episode and everyone knows it. Pretty devastating and yet people are avoiding saying anything negative because of the 800-pound gorilla in the room. Anime tells a story through animation, the seiyuu are great, the sound producers try their hardest... but no amount of work is going to make up for clearly visible lack of animation...
I agree with this!
What I don't agree with is when fans are unable to accept a different outlook. The level of enjoyment is not the same for everyone, so why make it sound like I'm agitated just because the episode I hated comes to resonate with someone else's fancy. I didn't like the episode, nor did you. But do we need to make it personal because others did like the episode? We stated our opinion. Now it's time for us (bitter people - you, me, etc.. ) to move on.
Let's comeback to this thread when a correct version surfaces so we can compare and whine to our heart's content. Pinky swear, okay? I also got my tissues ready in case the animated content shares the same fate for episode 11 as well. Oh, I'll bawl like there is no tomorrow.
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Kudara nai na! Sig by TheEroKing.
Calling on all Naruto fans, One Piece fans, and Shounen-fans in general... I got two words for you: One-Punch Man!
Executive member of the ASS. Ready to flee at the first sign of trouble.
For what is worth it, the whole episode felt pretty rushed to me. Don't know if there was enough novel material to make a third episode, but two seemed a little to few as far as I am concerned.
I think I've decided to average my rating of the storyline (9) and the visual (1) with some weights for a rounded rating of 7. The visual REALLY sucked. The story content/dialog stands well enough on its own and I'm not comparing it to any source material... just as a standalone effort of storytelling.
I caught your edit. Originally you wrote storyline (7) and visual (3)
That aside I quoted this because more or less I followed the same reasoning. An average between the story and the quality. But my rates are way lower, it would be a 6 for the story and a 2 for the visuals. Average 4, +1 because of the OP (I'm with monir when he says an OP-ED shouldn't modify one's perception of an episode, but here's sort of different, this op like the others just plays once and it played in this episode. Plus, it clearly took 75-80% of their animation budget, seeing the rest). Hence it's a 5.
I'm disappointed by this arc, in general. I was already fairly unhappy after the previous episode (which I voted "only" 7), because the weight on Nadeko's story was too little. I'm even more disappointed now that the arc is over, the whole felt rushed, proper explanations were not given but more like hinted at, the background story was shown but it still was shallow. My reasoning was fairly simple, this anime is great when it comes to characterization, and when it comes to let us emphasize with the protagonists.
- Hitagi Crab: did they succeed in portraying Senjougahara's pains, so that we could feel it? --> yes
- Mayoi Snail: did they manage to carry us the pain of the poor Hachikuji, so that we could feel it? --> yes
- Suruga Monkey: did they deliver Kanbaru's feelings of rage, jealousy, frustration , so that we could feel it? --> yes
- Nadeko Snake: did they convey the difficulties of Sengoku's growth, her loneliness, so that we could feel it? --> hell no
No, despite Nadeko being probably my favourite character, these episodes didn't deliver, her story was just barely made clear, but it's an unfair treatment if I think to the previous girls (protagonist - 3 episodes - 3 episodes), hence I can't really discount it, if anything because I don't understand. Even in the case they put a wonderful re-editing for the dvd version, I wouldn't give this episode more than a 6.
What I don't agree with is when fans are unable to accept a different outlook. The level of enjoyment is not the same for everyone, so why make it sound like I'm agitated just because the episode I hated comes to resonate with someone else's fancy.
Where was all this support during Haruhi this year? I guess the masses are catered to while the minority gets stomped? What I'm not cool with, is a single voice being stamped out because it doesn't agree with the majority. If the masses thinks it's bad, it's okay to flame... no one cares. If the masses thinks it's good, by heavens it's a sin to say anything negative. I guess it's really is fun to run around with pitchforks and torches, judging by how often it's been done in the past it must be a blast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monir
Now it's time for us (bitter people - you, me, etc.. ) to move on.
Let's comeback to this thread when a correct version surfaces so we can compare and whine to our heart's content
How are we gonna move on next week, if the same thing happens? But I'm gonna go ahead and guess that if it happens again next week... things will change. The 800-pound gorilla is always a factor though.
One of the main reasons that made people mad at Haruhi because they think that they were trolled by greedy company. It is different for this case. Since it's clear that Shaft also didn't want this to happen. And they are willing to fix it in another broadcast channel and DVD/Blu-ray.
Like someone said Nadeko was more like a fanservice character. She was presented merely as one of the component to develop Araragi's character. I don't denial that she was absurdly cute though. I actually prefer to see Araragi and Kanbaru in this arc. With the lack of Senjougahara, I'd say Kanbaru was the one who made this arc very enjoyable as usual.
Where was all this support during Haruhi this year? I guess the masses are catered to while the minority gets stomped? What I'm not cool with, is a single voice being stamped out because it doesn't agree with the majority. If the masses thinks it's bad, it's okay to flame... no one cares. If the masses thinks it's good, by heavens it's a sin to say anything negative. I guess it's really is fun to run around with pitchforks and torches, judging by how often it's been done in the past it must be a blast.
Saying anything negative toward the content is fine. Saying anything negative about a fan because of a particular take which differs from ones own point of view is not fine. To be blunt, that what you were vying to do. And no, you are not the only one here who found this episode bad as evident from the poll. It just happens the way you were wording your criticism toward the content sounded like that you have problem with not only the content, but also with anyone else who found the content of this episode enjoyable.
To be a bit off-topic also, there is a huge difference between what took place with E8 and what has taken place in this episode of BM. E8 was intentional, a publicity stunt of sort, well planned by the very people who are overseeing the Haruhi production. This episode of BM, on the other hand, is most likely the victim of not having enough time to work on. I don't think Shaft ran out of money or anything. They just didn't have enough time and manpower to meet the deadline. This is not done by design. We (moderators) also dealt with posts equally efficiently in the Haruhi forum that would rather express dissatisfaction at fans for liking a repeat episode instead of directing their dissatisfaction at the E8 farce.
Quote:
How are we gonna move on next week, if the same thing happens? But I'm gonna go ahead and guess that if it happens again next week... things will change. The 800-pound gorilla is always a factor though.
I don't think the same thing will happen next week. There are more than one group works on a series. Shaft is no different. They can also concentrate on working the episode content rather than trying to create a new visual effect for a new OP in the next. We might have a problem at the resolution episode for the next arc, but that's about 5 episode away. They can get started now. So, I think this show has seen it's worst. We'll see. As far as what we will do if things remain the same with the animation for next episode as well......? posts that attack posters rather than the content of an episode will disappear in magical fashion. Business as usual.
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Kudara nai na! Sig by TheEroKing.
Calling on all Naruto fans, One Piece fans, and Shounen-fans in general... I got two words for you: One-Punch Man!
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Saying anything negative toward the content is fine. Saying anything negative about a fan because of a particular take which differs from ones own point of view is not fine.
Really?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lummie
How people are able to rate this episode a 10 or a 9 is still a mystery to me........
That post is still up.
And yet, I post the following:
"How does anyone rate this episode above a 7 (7 being very generous imo)? Seriously, it was a long picture drama with an intro... that's it. It's like you turning in an incomplete assignment... you should be thrilled if the prof. showed you some mercy and gave you a C."
I get attacked after that, so I respond. Then mods start jumping down my throat?
This episode was sh*t. I don't care about the fixes to come... I can't rate that which doesn't exist. Right now, this episode is sh*t.
I was attracted to this series because of the visualization in episode 1. I was attached to the story after episode 2. Episode 3 pretty much solidified the notion that I'll follow this series even though I knew very well Shaft won't be able to keep up with the visual as the series progresses deeper into the story. I definitely like the story, but the visualization is very important aspect for me to like this show. I'm one of the fans who voted low in the poll because I could not engage into the story due to the poor overall animated work. No way am I saying the story told in this episode was poor. It was very good, in fact, as usual. It's just that I'm attracted to this show and the story it's trying to tell because of the visual.
That said, however, am I wrong to vote low? I don't think I am. It reflected my emotion according to the episode I had access to in the present. Are those fans wrong for liking the episode for the story and voting accordingly? Absolutely not. Vexx, good ol' Vexx, already pointed out that once the visual-candy is fixed and then a first time viewer who watched the correct version of this episode comes to take a look at this poll, he/she will be confused at all these low votes.
I also was originally attracted to this series because of the visuals. I really have loved the minimalist/artsy backgrounds. Also the way they draw the mouths and cheeks of the female characters makes them look really cute. But I think Ep 4 takes the cake. The way they used the graphics to represent the situation in the story was too cool.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pellissier
Guys, the thread has been cleaned, but now please back on the actual Bakemonogatari episode 10 discussion. 70 off topic posts have been deleted (to my joy who spent 1/2 an hour on them), next time could you please try to restrain a little bit? Adding offtopicness to offtopicness only deters people who'd like to discuss the real content.
Ah Ha! So that is what happened. One night I was reading on page 9 and went to bed but left my browser open. Today I refreshed the page and all of a sudden posts were different and the last post I read was now a page back. I had just woken up and was totally like "wahhh?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pellissier
I'm disappointed by this arc, in general. I was already fairly unhappy after the previous episode (which I voted "only" 7), because the weight on Nadeko's story was too little. I'm even more disappointed now that the arc is over, the whole felt rushed, proper explanations were not given but more like hinted at, the background story was shown but it still was shallow. My reasoning was fairly simple, this anime is great when it comes to characterization, and when it comes to let us emphasize with the protagonists....
...No, despite Nadeko being probably my favourite character, these episodes didn't deliver, her story was just barely made clear, but it's an unfair treatment if I think to the previous girls (protagonist - 3 episodes - 3 episodes), hence I can't really discount it, if anything because I don't understand. Even in the case they put a wonderful re-editing for the dvd version, I wouldn't give this episode more than a 6.
Were you a novel reader? I wonder if the novel spent more time on Nadeko's story. Like myself and others have said this arc was really about Araragi not Nadeko.
Honestly they didn't give her enough interaction so I don't feel attached to her character at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ac195
Really?
That post is still up.
And yet, I post the following:
"How does anyone rate this episode above a 7 (7 being very generous imo)? Seriously, it was a long picture drama with an intro... that's it. It's like you turning in an incomplete assignment... you should be thrilled if the prof. showed you some mercy and gave you a C."
I get attacked after that, so I respond. Then mods start jumping down my throat?
This episode was sh*t. I don't care about the fixes to come... I can't rate that which doesn't exist. Right now, this episode is sh*t.
Well I could have rated it higher than a 7. To be honest I actually like Visual Novels which are, just in case you don't know already, still pictures accompanied by either text or spoken lines. So for me to have to watch a few 10 second still frames didn't bother me at all.
Still, just because some people lack the capacity to follow the story without every scene animated doesn't mean the rest of us suffer from that same incapacity.
Hell, alot of us read books and they are only words with no sound or animations or even, sometimes, pictures. However they are still enjoyable. Try to think of this episode as part anime; part visual novel. Honestly I don't care if they don't ever fix it. Its not nearly as bad as some are making it out to be.
Before it's settled I will not post in this thread.
Moderator
), the two discernible opinion expressed in the poll are correct. Nobody here is wrong for liking the episode, nor for disliking it. The poll gives us an imagery about the mindset of the fans who have been following this show thus far and the kind of things they have come to expect from this show. 
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