Code Geass (Generic discussion thread)

[azul120]

Speaking of Miss Genki, how about the three UFN heads?

Edit: And to touch back on yesterday's conversation, what Cornelia had been doing was Lawful Evil.

[azul120]

Though at the very least Lelouch was making the kind of world Nunnally wanted, even if it wasn't in the way she would have liked. What Cornelia was doing was antithetical to what Euphie wanted.

Anyways, what did you think of the three figureheads of the UFN?

[eaglei3]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

What Britannia did was their own downfall, actually. You venture into the Lion's den, don't expect to have all of your limbs when you come out, if not at all.

Very easy to get to this position when your leader doesn't care about your people or the ones you are attacking.

[Knightrunner]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

Did I mention how Moe Kaguya was already? Yeah, I thought so.

Cornelia is 'lawful evil' indeed, if you have to put it on a scale. But her actions were justified to an extent, and I agree that terrorists have no place in society, they are born from desperation and hatred. What Britannia did was their own downfall, actually. You venture into the Lion's den, don't expect to have all of your limbs when you come out, if not at all.

A better way of expressing Cornelia is "She did it to put Britannia in it's right place, making a safer place of Euphemia in the process" Just like how Lelouch "Is making a world for Nunnally, without conflict or needless suffering"

Ironically, theyw ere both digging very deep graves. Thats all I have to say at the moment.

Cornelia is evil. Not only does she discriminate on the numbers but she repeated the getto massecre to lead Zero out.

[Nogitsune]

Yes, terrorists are criminals, usually very ruthless criminals.
But creating them yourselves and then trampling them in the name of justice doesn't work, and that's what Britannia was doing - minus maybe the justice thing. Most people can only take so much before they snap, and Cornelia especially was all for beating the very notion of resistance out of the nations she conquered, even when Schneizel - whom she respected quite a bit - told her it was too much.

And, most of all, she happily killed innocents when she re-created the situation in Shinjuku. If she had evacuated children, the elderly and people who weren't doing anything wrong in general, they would have shown it on screen, since it would have been quite the surprising display of mercy.
But that's not what she did. She created a second Shinjuku, and Clovis was not petting cute little puppies there.
She also heavily discriminated against Suzaku, and said that such discrimination was simply part of Britannia's national policy, which she happily went along with.

Cornelia has her good points, and I like her as a character, but she's far from being a "good person".

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by Knightrunner

Cornelia is evil. Not only does she discriminate on the numbers but she repeated the getto massecre to lead Zero out.

She descriminates the numbers because that is the national policy of the Empire, not because she actually believed in that.

If she was truely evil and prejudiced she would've never confided in, accepted and officially knighted Suzaku.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Yes, terrorists are criminals, usually very ruthless criminals.
But creating them yourselves and then trampling them in the name of justice doesn't work, and that's what Britannia was doing - minus maybe the justice thing. Most people can only take so much before they snap, and Cornelia especially was all for beating the very notion of resistance out of the nations she conquered, even when Schneizel - whom she respected quite a bit - told her it was too much.

And, most of all, she happily killed innocents when she re-created the situation in Shinjuku. If she had evacuated children, the elderly and people who weren't doing anything wrong in general, they would have shown it on screen, since it would have been quite the surprising display of mercy.
But that's not what she did. She created a second Shinjuku, and Clovis was not petting cute little puppies there.
She also heavily discriminated against Suzaku, and said that such discrimination was simply part of Britannia's national policy, which she happily went along with.

Cornelia has her good points, and I like her as a character, but she's far from being a "good person".

Sigh

these conquered people had their chance at resistance, and they lost. FFS, how hard is it to understand that any further resistance would be futile? All they're doing is killing more of their own people and making Britannia crack down harder on them.

You can sit here and blame Cornelia for all the "innocents" that died in Saitama, and ignore all the other facts, like 1) over HALF the people there were aiding the terrorists b) the terrorists chose to hide behind civilians.

Why not make their base a cave or something away from innocent civilians? Oh wait, cuz that what cowards like them do. Killing women and children might be evil, but when there's a precedent for female suicide bombers and using babies and what not you just can't take any chance.

Please do look up some of the tactics employed by "resistance" fighters and you'll see how disgusting those are.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

She descriminates the numbers because that is the national policy of the Empire, not because she actually believed in that.

If she was truely evil and prejudiced she would've never confided in, accepted and officially knighted Suzaku.

There are people who have strong prejudices and yet make exceptions without conceding the point. It's called hypocrisy.
Cornelia thought Britannia was totally awesome. That's enough for me.

these conquered people had their chance at resistance, and they lost. FFS, how hard is it to understand that any further resistance would be futile? All they're doing is killing more of their own people and making Britannia crack down harder on them.

My point was that Cornelia deliberately crushes the people she conquers, be they soldiers or children. Schneizel would not have a problem with her strategy if it was doing more good than harm.

You can sit here and blame Cornelia for all the "innocents" that died in Saitama, and ignore all the other facts, like 1) over HALF the people there were aiding the terrorists

Yes, so let's go ahead and kill the other half, too!
I'm not ignoring anything. I just don't believe in punishing people for the crimes of others.

b) the terrorists chose to hide behind civilians.

So that makes it all right too kill those civilians?
I really don't think so.

Why not make their base a cave or something away from innocent civilians? Oh wait, cuz that what cowards like them do. Killing women and children might be evil, but when there's a precedent for female suicide bombers and using babies and what not you just can't take any chance.

Yeah, guilty until proven innocent. That's how I want the world to work.

Please do look up some of the tactics employed by "resistance" fighters and you'll see how disgusting those are.

I don't care how disgusting those terrosists were. It doesn't change the fact that Cornelia's methods disgust me no less, and that Cornelia did what she did there for revenge more than anything else. She never once spoke about saving innocent lives.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

She descriminates the numbers because that is the national policy of the Empire, not because she actually believed in that.

But she did believe in it.

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

If she was truely evil and prejudiced she would've never confided in, accepted and officially knighted Suzaku.

She refused to deploy him in combat, ordered him to undertake excessively cruel tasks "officially" to confirm his loyalty (though the afformentioned reason makes these seem to be almost purely acts of sadism), becomes angered when Euphemia chooses him as her knight, agrees to send him on a one man suicide mission into Kyushu, and only "accepts" Suzaku after:
A) Euphemia is DEAD
B) Cornelia herself failed to avenge her
C) One of her closest subordinates tries to kill her for no reason
D) She learns that Lelouch is Zero
E) The Area she is in charge of is on the verge of falling out of Britannia's control, which would in turn cause a domino effect of the other Areas attempting rebellion as well, thus destroying her country.

Can anyone here say "Duress?"

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

these conquered people had their chance at resistance, and they lost. FFS, how hard is it to understand that any further resistance would be futile? All they're doing is killing more of their own people and making Britannia crack down harder on them.

...So once you win, you're right and your opposition is morally wrong?

[azul120]

Besides, how is a one-sided civilian purge any less cowardly than behind the back tactics used as an only resort?

[Revolutionist]

Cornelia's tactics may have been bit heavy handed, but you have to realize that she's on the side of the law. You can argue the legality and morality of that all you want, it still doesn't change the fact that Japan instigated a war with Britannia, lost said war, and is now a colony. Cornelia's job entails establishing order since Clovis was unable to do so, and keeping it.

These resistance fighters are nothing more than criminals hiding behind civilians and using them as human shields with the pretext of freeing their country. They do this with no regard for human life whatsoever. To them the ends justify the means.

You can keep repeating that terrorists were forced to be terrorists by Britannia, and that their cowardly tactics are a last resort, but you won't change my mind, sorry. That's the same argument people use to rationalize crime, "Oh they grew up in a bad neighborhood, went to a bad school etc, so it's not really their fault they're criminals."

No, just no. There is ALWAYS a choice.

They could always work within the system and try to change it. Granted, it was heavily stacked against them, but in reality all it would've taken was a change in Emperor, which was more likely than a couple of terrorists overthrowing the govt.
Simply replacing Charles who didn't give a crap about anything but Ragnarok with Schneizel would've been a big improvement.

It was never about right or wrong, or justice, it was an issue of pride and idiocy. Britannia could've let the Japanese run Area 11 and people would still be unhappy because it is a commonwealth, and not an independent nation. That is just plain stupid IMO.

Speaking of commonwealth, the 13 American colonies rebelled against Britain and formed an independent nation. However, 200 years after are we really that different from the colonies that to this day remain loyal to the British crown like Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc? The commonwealth nations obviously didn't get to where they are today instantly, it took time, but that's how peaceful change works, it takes time.

Going back to Emperor Schneizel, if we disregard his obvious character derailment at the end of R2 (I mean seriously, guy goes from "doesn't it sadden you to see those people killing each other" to "Ima nuke EVERYBODY LOLZ"), he would've made changes to the way things are with respect to Areas and numbers. After all, Cornelia herself admits he'd make a perfect king under the right circumstances.

[darkdarkdark]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Cornelia's tactics may have been bit heavy handed, but you have to realize that she's on the side of the law. You can argue the legality and morality of that all you want, it still doesn't change the fact that Japan instigated a war with Britannia, lost said war, and is now a colony. Cornelia's job entails establishing order since Clovis was unable to do so, and keeping it.

These resistance fighters are nothing more than criminals hiding behind civilians and using them as human shields with the pretext of freeing their country. They do this with no regard for human life whatsoever. To them the ends justify the means.

You can keep repeating that terrorists were forced to be terrorists by Britannia, and that their cowardly tactics are a last resort, but you won't change my mind, sorry. That's the same argument people use to rationalize crime, "Oh they grew up in a bad neighborhood, went to a bad school etc, so it's not really their fault they're criminals."

No, just no. There is ALWAYS a choice.

They could always work within the system and try to change it. Granted, it was heavily stacked against them, but in reality all it would've taken was a change in Emperor, which was more likely than a couple of terrorists overthrowing the govt.
Simply replacing Charles who didn't give a crap about anything but Ragnarok with Schneizel would've been a big improvement.

It was never about right or wrong, or justice, it was an issue of pride and idiocy. Britannia could've let the Japanese run Area 11 and people would still be unhappy because it is a commonwealth, and not an independent nation. That is just plain stupid IMO.

Speaking of commonwealth, the 13 American colonies rebelled against Britain and formed an independent nation. However, 200 years after are we really that different from the colonies that to this day remain loyal to the British crown like Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc? The commonwealth nations obviously didn't get to where they are today instantly, it took time, but that's how peaceful change works, it takes time.

Going back to Emperor Schneizel, if we disregard his obvious character derailment at the end of R2 (I mean seriously, guy goes from "doesn't it sadden you to see those people killing each other" to "Ima nuke EVERYBODY LOLZ"), he would've made changes to the way things are with respect to Areas and numbers.

Don't know why there is still talk about Cornelia's "unjust actions." It's the GODDAMN MILITARY! FFS, what do you think they do? THEY KILL PEOPLE.Scheizel killed tons more people than Cornelia by dropping said NUKE on a city.

After all, Cornelia herself admits he'd make a perfect king under the right circumstances.

Well of course if there were the "right circumstances", he would make a good king. Many people would be great kings under the "right circumstances?"

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by darkdarkdark

Don't know why there is still talk about Cornelia's "unjust actions." It's the GODDAMN MILITARY! FFS, what do you think they do? THEY KILL PEOPLE.Scheizel killed tons more people than Cornelia by dropping said NUKE on a city.

massacring an entire settlement filled with unarmed man women and children counts as acceptable behavior for an army ?
in what country ?

[darkdarkdark]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

massacring an entire settlement filled with unarmed man women and children counts as acceptable behavior for an army ?
in what country ?

Apparently in Brittania, where everyone in the military is in DGAF mode.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by darkdarkdark

Apparently in Brittania, where everyone in the military is in DGAF mode.

the fact that britannia is portrayed as almost cartoonishly evil doesn't excuse their actions

[darkdarkdark]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

the fact that britannia is portrayed as almost cartoonishly evil doesn't excuse their actions

Not even cartoonishly evil. They are evil. It's to be expected when the royalty is full of crazy bastards. And no, it doesn't excuse their actions.

[azul120]

If you were grading on that kind of a curve, then perhaps Schneizel would be that A++. Otherwise he's more like a C. He would make a great Amoral Attorney type, and not just in the Ace Attorney games, lol.

And I know you said not to argue anymore, but:

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

You can argue the legality and morality of that all you want, it still doesn't change the fact that Japan instigated a war with Britannia, lost said war, and is now a colony.

Britannia instigated that war, not Japan.

Nothing wrong with objectivity, is there?

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Cornelia's tactics may have been bit heavy handed, but you have to realize that she's on the side of the law. You can argue the legality and morality of that all you want, it still doesn't change the fact that Japan instigated a war with Britannia, lost said war, and is now a colony. Cornelia's job entails establishing order since Clovis was unable to do so, and keeping it.

So the law is right by simple virtue of it being the law?

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Going back to Emperor Schneizel, if we disregard his obvious character derailment at the end of R2 (I mean seriously, guy goes from "doesn't it sadden you to see those people killing each other" to "Ima nuke EVERYBODY LOLZ"), he would've made changes to the way things are with respect to Areas and numbers. After all, Cornelia herself admits he'd make a perfect king under the right circumstances.

Schneizel's introduction was him nearly frying a loyal subordinate and sibling on a whim, after sending a missle volley at them first, then ordering that same subordinate into a suicide mission as a distraction.

From the start he was the one funding the Camelot project, and later making use of Clovis' Code-R research in the Seigfreid. He also ordered the abduction and experimentation on Jeremiah, turning him into a cyborg after declaring him dead. Take note that, injured as he was, Jeremiah made it down from a mountainous combat zone quickly enough to be infront of the scientist's evacuation path. The guy wasn't anywhere near lethal damage, so "but they saved his life" doesn't cut it. If you'll note, he was also manipulating Nina by making references and comparissons to Euphemia to control her.

As well it was made clear that he was gunning for the throne back in season one, he happily agreed with Suzaku's plan to kill the Emperor, i.e, his own father, smiled when Suzaku fired the FLEIJA over Tokyo, nuked all of Pendragon when just hitting the palace in the center would have accomplished his goals, and in his own words stated that world peace was worth at least 300 million lives.

Schneizel was established as interested in developing superior weapons from the start of the series and his conquering the world through FLEIJA was the obvious extension of that. It was poorly written, but logical for his character. As the author of Megiddo put it: While Lelouch and Charles were men who wore the mask of the tyrant, Schneizel was a tyrant who wore the mask of a human.

[darkdarkdark]

Originally Posted by azul120

Britannia instigated that war, not Japan.

Nothing wrong with objectivity, is there?

Wtf.. seriously what was that other person watching.. Yes, Britannia invaded Japan.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by darkdarkdark

Wtf.. seriously what was that other person watching.. Yes, Britannia invaded Japan.

I think what he means is that Japan used very aggressive negotiating policies and pited other nations against each other in bidding wars for sakuradite to jack up the price and gain favors. As well they participated in trade blockades along with the EU and CF to refuse trading with Britannia in order to force negotiations (referred to as the Oriental Incident) which prompted Britannia to invade.

However, other countries being pricks doesn't justify forced occupation.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Cornelia's tactics may have been bit heavy handed, but you have to realize that she's on the side of the law. You can argue the legality and morality of that all you want, it still doesn't change the fact that Japan instigated a war with Britannia, lost said war, and is now a colony. Cornelia's job entails establishing order since Clovis was unable to do so, and keeping it.

If you were to argue that from a realistic perspective, there's also such a thing as war crimes, which Cornelia would be guilty of in spades. Just because Britannia has no such concept doesn't make what she's doing ok.

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

These resistance fighters are nothing more than criminals hiding behind civilians and using them as human shields with the pretext of freeing their country. They do this with no regard for human life whatsoever. To them the ends justify the means.

As it does for everybody, including Suzaku who tries the "work within the system" route. Also, you're overgeneralizing. Kallen's cell ducked into the underground tunnels to get away and was forced to take refuge in the city, then Clovis started massacring everyone. They weren't using the civilians as shields.

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

You can keep repeating that terrorists were forced to be terrorists by Britannia, and that their cowardly tactics are a last resort, but you won't change my mind, sorry. That's the same argument people use to rationalize crime, "Oh they grew up in a bad neighborhood, went to a bad school etc, so it's not really their fault they're criminals."

The difference between crime and revolutionary warfare is a big one. One's for a minority, the other's for an entire country that is quite obviously oppressed by its conquerors. You act as if they should be okay with the slavery and senseless slaughter of their own people.

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

They could always work within the system and try to change it. Granted, it was heavily stacked against them, but in reality all it would've taken was a change in Emperor, which was more likely than a couple of terrorists overthrowing the govt.
Simply replacing Charles who didn't give a crap about anything but Ragnarok with Schneizel would've been a big improvement.

Which would never have happened, and the "wait and see" attitude is just as likely to produce a new leader who is even worse. Odysseus was first in line, and probably would have been a puppet to people all too willing to maintain the status quo.

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

It was never about right or wrong, or justice, it was an issue of pride and idiocy. Britannia could've let the Japanese run Area 11 and people would still be unhappy because it is a commonwealth, and not an independent nation. That is just plain stupid IMO.

They would not have resulted to such extreme methods if Britannia was actually a decent country, or at least not as many would have.

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Speaking of commonwealth, the 13 American colonies rebelled against Britain and formed an independent nation. However, 200 years after are we really that different from the colonies that to this day remain loyal to the British crown like Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc? The commonwealth nations obviously didn't get to where they are today instantly, it took time, but that's how peaceful change works, it takes time.

Which is of course ignoring the factors for the rebellion, namely a crapton of taxation with no input from the colonies. It also helped that the colonies also bordered the east coast and were hit hard by taxes on exports and imports.

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Going back to Emperor Schneizel, if we disregard his obvious character derailment at the end of R2 (I mean seriously, guy goes from "doesn't it sadden you to see those people killing each other" to "Ima nuke EVERYBODY LOLZ"), he would've made changes to the way things are with respect to Areas and numbers. After all, Cornelia herself admits he'd make a perfect king under the right circumstances.

He had Nina picked up at the start of R2, so he was planning something like that from the beginning. Anyway, Schneizel was always the scare people into submission type. Unlike Cornelia, he at least knew when to stop. The only difference between them is publicity.