[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

Okay, I see your point now. But I still don't see how it continued unless you count Kanon's rescuing of Battler a part of the game, but everything else pretty much made it seem like it officially ended. Oh well, I'll see if I can check back on it.

Spoiler for Cut due to size:

That and all the reasoning that followed and that ended with Erika's death... sort of.

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

You have to remember that Beatrice wasn't GM in EP5 Lambda was, and she wasn't defending any side really, though she pretty much enjoyed Erika's Natsuhi- Culprit Theory. In EP6 Beatrice wasn't a GM either, she just remembered the Truth about herself and the game.

I know Beato wasn't the GM in Ep 5.
The problem is there were 2 Beato. One was catathonic Beato (which should have been Meta Beato). The other was Piece Beato who took part to the trial. Who was moving Piece Beato? Meta Catathonic Beato? Lambda? Or Piece Beato had a will of her own?

In Ep 3 Ronove seemed to know Beato's plot for the game. It's possible that, in Ep 6 although Battler was the GM he told Beato his plans. Also, since she sort of moved Kanon she did some GM although minimal...

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

Ehhh... Not really. In EP6, Battler notices a secret passage after solving the Epitaph with Erika. In EP7, Beatrice stumbles upon it after solving the Epitaph as well. EP3 hints at that same passageway when Eva solves the Epitaph. And in EP4, the adults who survived the First Twilight were in a series of passageways that weren't shown before. So, she broke Knox's third.

They all knew there was gold hidden somewhere. It hinted to a secret place that you of course should reach through a secret door or a secret passage.
Also it was implied Kinzo has ways to reach Beatrice in Kuwadorian that were unknown to the siblings and his wife.
If secret doors are hinted Dlanor says it's okay with Knox.

".........In other words, hidden doors would always work just fine as the standard trick for closed rooms."
"This does not refer to hidden doors with hints or FORESHADOWING. ...It refers only to doors that even the detective cannot find because, of course, they are HIDDEN."

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

She breaks Van Dine's 17th if what is said in EP8 hold true for all of the first four games.

Do you refer to the part about Beato feeling guilty?

17. A professional criminal must never be shouldered with the guilt of a crime in a detective story. Crimes by housebreakers and bandits are the province of the police departments — not of authors and brilliant amateur detectives. A really fascinating crime is one committed by a pillar of a church, or a spinster noted for her charities.

I don't really know how to take that scene as I'm tempted to think it's all a fantasy... or that part of it is true but that the scene is presented in a very subjective view. The fact that it would break Van Dine 17 for me is merely an extra proof there are lies in that scene.
However that part is still up to debate as while I tend to think to discard most of it as fantasy some others think the scene portray the truth...

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

You better not...

Please stop being angry for something I didn't. I wasn't talking of Knox not being useful in novels but in real life where there are no rules a criminal would follow.

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

Beatrice never told him in the first place, she barely left a hint. In fact, she kept referring to the game as a debate of reasoning, her theory against his, rarely ever leaving a hint that it was a mystery.

The problem with Umineko is that more often than not we've to work only with tiny hints. It works for us but for Battler as well.
According to Beato he should have caught up it... though note that the hint was likely purposely a minor one because he wasn't supposed to catch it otherwise he would have started fighting Beato much better.

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

Here's the thing about Poker, or any game really, if you've never played Poker, you won't recognize it. However, if you did play Poker, you would be able to recognize it. Battler has read alot of mysteries, so if he didn't pick up the hint that it was a mystery, then the game, to him, was obviously something different, and it was. It didn't matter whether she was being clear or not, she had left the clues, right? So Battler should've naturally picked up on them.

Well, Umineko's situation to me remember more a couple of tv shows we had here.

In one basically the point was to make a huge, often scary joke to important people, actors, announcers, sport players, politicians.

In order to do so they would ask to some of their friends to act according to a script and cause the person who was pranked to end up in a weird or scary situation. Once they even had a person believing aliens were to catch him. Another found a real tiger on his car parking.
Nearly no one suspected it was a joke even the ones who got pranked TWICE.

The other show had always the same person dress up, each time as a different person, and go prank important people, who often KNEW him but again they wouldn't recognize him.

Battler is in a crazy situation and he's obviously not thinking straight.
Especially in the first Episode he lived everything as if it was happening for real and in the second episode although he and piece Battler are divided he's still taking the dead of his relatives as if the murders were real.

Let's pretend the first game was the TRUTH or that he believed so. The second game had obviously to be a play so what harm can it do to accuse someone since that's not how things must have gone? But no, he broke down at the idea of suspecting someone as if that was his REALITY.

If a friend of yours were to tell you a murder story using as main cast your family and friends would you take it seriously? Or would you tackle the mistery as a mere tale and at the end you would have fun thinking that person X, whom you're sure wouldn't hurt a soul, was a evil murderer in a fictionary story?

It's just a story, not the truth. Battler however is in a mindset in which he can't recognize it, so it's no surprise he fails at the game.
He's pretty emotional though and likely, from his perspective, Beato is killing Bambi's mom in front of him over and over. And he cries over it as if it was the first time.

Originally Posted by Renall

Well then they're written into a story to be incredibly stupid. Also they're aware of Shkanon, but not that Shkanon is also Beatrice? That doesn't bother them in any way?

If I'm not wrong in EP 2 Kirye sees Beato but don't recognize her for Shannon.
I've really no problem with the siblings failing to recognize Beato from Shannon... it's when it comes to no one at least noticing that Shannon and Kanon have the same face although they're no siblings I think things are poorly written.

Originally Posted by Renall

It's just really bad writing on Meta-Beatrice's part. I mean it sort of sums up as akin to:

Can this be called as an overuse of authorial manipulation? I'm not sure though because I fail at properly call this sort of things with their English names.

Though the point is: if Beato's plan is just a story that's supposed to stay as such maybe she can work into it an explanation for which George won't wander around or anyway keep George from doing it... if she planned to put it in action and really stage it... Well, she planned it rather poorly...

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That reminds me... if only a few selected adults are accomplices then how the hell I can explain the fact that everyone recognizes Kanon? The best way I could get around this problem is by saying that the only one who is fooled is Battler, it wouldn't be that unreasonable then. He wouldn't go out and think that they are the same person even if he noticed similarities between them.

But Natsuhi and Krauss?!

Time ago I made a theory in which I suggested Kanon was created with Natsuhi and Krauss' support to fool the siblings and the other servants when Kinzo died.

Basically the idea was that Shannon and Kanon would both be Kinzo's servant so one of them would nearly always be around him or be able to tell 'I was with him doing his bidding when you couldn't find him' and things like this.

This would give the illusion that Kinzo was still alive because between Shannon and Kanon you can have someone who can always testify he 'was with Kinzo' when Kinzo was nowhere to be found.

The plan however backfired when we reach 1986 but still... all the adults had seen Kanon in 1985 and knew him and, since Jessica doesn't know Kinzo is dead and Shannon is playing two roles, she can still fall for Kanon and at the same time root for George and Shannon's romance.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Clair in EP7 said that she entrusted everything to fate, Ryuukishi in the interview said that she wanted to be stopped. At least this behavior is consistent.

Well, I guess she's the embodiement of fate's twisted sense of humour...
If I think Battler even thanked Jessica when she stopped him from touching her breasts...

I agree that sometimes Agatha Christie did some things that well... I found hard to swallow... expecially a certain suicide... but on a general line I found her characters had better motivations and generally, unless the victim was a monster, she generally didn't ask us to feel sympathy for the assassin, though the assassin can be charming, especially in minor stories.

Though she liked to break stereotypes... as having multiple murders or subjective narration or detectives who were the killers or a 'servant' who was a murderer.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

As for Rosa, I suppose she either didn't realize that Shannon was really dead (I hope that's this one) or she didn't know Shannon was Beatrice (please no...). She did scream at Battler not to touch Shannon. I think it's possible that this was Ryuukishi's way to tell us that Rosa didn't want Battler to touch Shannon because else he'd find out she isn't really dead. "Our Confessions" mentions a similar situation I think.

The problem is Battler got a good eyefull of how Shannon was dead and it's strange Rosa didn't see it as well (though it's possible he was covering her vision).

We've been discussing prior to this about how it was possible to realistically fake some deaths... though some might work others would require a really good make up and a professional working at it.

Though it's true maybe the accomplices believed the death to be fake merely because the other option was too horrible so they unconsciously rejected all the signs that screamed 'this guy is dead you idiot, the body isn't a fake one, it's not a trick, it's a corpse!'

[bigemperor]

They are also unaware that the five people in the study were actually killed. Beato explains that it's easier to control them this way under the current circumstances, although it's a case-by-case thing. They currently believe that they're just going to play dead for a while.

Piece-Beatrice convinces Kumasawa to lie face down so she can check whether it looks more realistic. Then, she takes a cord out of her bag and throttles Kumasawa with it. She apologizes to the corpse, explaining that the location for this twilight is the ankle, and leaving Kumasawa to die just from that would make her suffer unnecessarily.
Piece-Beatrice takes takes out a rifle and shoots the corpse's ankle with it. Unlike the movies, the gunshot is only about as loud as popping a cork from a wine bottle. She then digs out the bullet with a pair of forceps and puts it in her bag, which already contains several other bloodstained bullets.

so yasu is a ultra serial killer and mad guy? this destroy the theories that yasu DON'T kill

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by bigemperor

They are also unaware that the five people in the study were actually killed. Beato explains that it's easier to control them this way under the current circumstances, although it's a case-by-case thing. They currently believe that they're just going to play dead for a while.

Piece-Beatrice convinces Kumasawa to lie face down so she can check whether it looks more realistic. Then, she takes a cord out of her bag and throttles Kumasawa with it. She apologizes to the corpse, explaining that the location for this twilight is the ankle, and leaving Kumasawa to die just from that would make her suffer unnecessarily.
Piece-Beatrice takes takes out a rifle and shoots the corpse's ankle with it. Unlike the movies, the gunshot is only about as loud as popping a cork from a wine bottle. She then digs out the bullet with a pair of forceps and puts it in her bag, which already contains several other bloodstained bullets.

so yasu is a ultra serial killer and mad guy? this destroy the theories that yasu DON'T kill

If this is the plot for a story... no, it doesn't. If this is a plan for something she wanted to do, well, yes, she planned to kill people. If she did or not in Rokkenjima Prime is up to speculation.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Time ago I made a theory in which I suggested Kanon was created with Natsuhi and Krauss' support to fool the siblings and the other servants when Kinzo died.

There's a few theories that might work IF Kanon only appeared after Kinzo's death and not one year before.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

There's a few theories that might work IF Kanon only appeared after Kinzo's death and not one year before.

If I don't remember wrong it was EP 7 which said that Yasu created Kanon 1 (or was it 2?) years before Kinzo's death. However it's possible Kanon didn't have a body yet and gained one only after Kinzo's death (when Yasu would either use Kanon with Natsuhi's approbation or be powerful enough to use Kanon and request for Genji to cover up the hiring of a boy that doesn't exist).
Also, other family members might have been tricked into thinking Kanon worked there PRIOR to Kinzo's death but incidentally, they didn't meet him.

"Oh, the last year he wasn't Kinzo's private servant yet and he wasn't on his working turn and he wasn't expert enough so there was...(insert random servant name here) but this year he'll be the one on service."

The one who will be the hardest to trick would be Jessica (Gohda was hired after Kanon) because she should have noticed Kanon and could have questioned the other maid servants about it:
"Hey, that boy who's working here by a year... how come I never saw him?"
"He's working here by 2 days as far as I know, milady..."
"But he and mom and Shannon said he was here by a year...@_@"

... however it's possible that:
a) Kanon was 'hired' while a lot of servants were replaced (in EP 7 there seem to be a moment in which all the maids apart from Shannon leaves)
b) as Natsuhi, Krauss, Genji, Kumasawa, Shannon and Kanon would be the first Jessica would question she wouldn't really come up with a sentence like the one I tossed in with another random servant who could have noticed Kanon wasn't working there by more than 1 year.

Again we'll be trusting the roulette of fate.

I'll agree it's hazardous but to me is more logic than a house built over a mountain of explosive and with a self destructing mechanism in.
I really wish for this one to be fantasy and that the island exploded in another manner.

[Kylon99]

By the way, about the accomplice (or what I used to call the Key of the Epitaph (EDIT: Augggghhhh!)) figuring things out in the end; you can see this in EP2 and EP3. Natsuhi fails to figure it out until the very, very, very end, probably, when she read that last letter. But she's ditzy like that and we all love her for it.

Rosa seems to have figured it out also nearer to the end without help from the letter, as she intentionally dumps Battler and goes off with Maria. Eva seems to have figured it out even earlier, although this could be in conjunction with her solving the epitaph. Kyrie in EP4, I'm unsure of still.

What surprised me is how Yasu thinks how easily each 'family' will protect 'their own' rather than thinking of the entire group of people as one family. Although now that I think about it, I'm not too surprised at this as I've seen rich families act like this sometimes. I think in Rokkenjima Prime things may be different though.


Oh by the way, about George wandering around, even though this particular scenario doesn't have him successfully finding Shannon, I think we can take EP3 as a scenario where he *does* find Shannon and she's not truly dead yet. In that case Shannon is forced to shoot him, it seems. In EP2, if George won't 'let go' of Shannon, it seems she's forced to shoot him and anyone else as soon as there's a chance.

So I think that's the answer to that question.


Oh, and the interesting thing is that there's a sawed off shotgun and a handgun in play it seems.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

It's just random speculation, but what if they do not realize that Beatrice is Shannon?? Like, they meet Yasu in a really convincing Beatrice costume and believe her to be a 19th person.

EDIT: Sorry for the double post... 8)

Oh, by the way, I find it interesting that in this manuscript and Dlanor's intro that there's no mention of "Yasu." The primary actors are Beatrice (Piece or Meta), Shannon or Kanon.

If you ask "Yasu" where her "Yasu" name came from, I bet she wouldn't actually acknowledge that name at all. I still believe it's something that was meant to have been made up from Bernkastel. i.e. "Yasu's" actions and motives are always divided amongst Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice and nothing is truly "Yasu's."

In addition, Yasu is clearly a copy of the "Hanin ha yasu" meme and this is why Ryukishi was bragging about creating a culprit that you couldn't copy and paste. (Because if you kept saying 犯人はヤス for Umineko, people would think you were joking with the meme when Episode 7 came out.)

So maybe we ascribe too much to the entity of "Yasu" sometimes. Maybe we can think of any actions her body takes as being subdivided into Shannon, Kanon or Beato only and she never takes an action as "Yasu"?



By the way, I've been thinking that "Yasu" suffered some kind of damage to her brain that caused her to disassociate from her ego. As in she lost the ability to feel *who* she is and instead her creative impulses allowed her to come up with these false personas as a way of representing herself in an attempt to compensate. I could find no mention of such a disease on the internet, although I suspect it would involve damage to the periaqueductal gray area of the brain stem. (The part we now know provides consciousness and interconnectivity to the cerebral cortex; was watching a TED video on this a few weeks ago. Usually damage to this part just renders people unconscious/coma.)

Anyone have any comments?

EDIT: Murphy's Law; Once you post a question asking for answers, you find the answer on the internet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderl...ality_disorder

Yasu does sound like she has some mild form of this particular disorder. The thing is Ryukishi never mentioned any details regarding this outside of the story and in the story, the idea of being dropped doesn't necessarily include brain damage. If he did have this in mind, I'm sure he would've mentioned it, like he did with Tooya's condition (in the story.)

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Yasu is more likely to have this personality disorder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissoci...ntity_disorder

Even the development theory in that link seems to fit what happened to her in the stories.

[Kylon99]

Well the main thing is, is there a form of DID where the different identities are *not* compartmentalized? It's usually been said that DID ends up with different personalities (and not personas) who cannot access the memories of other personalities.

Beatrice, Shannon and Kanon seem to be able to access each other's memories in order to execute the master plan. 8)

EDIT: I suspect, ultimately, we can find something similar to Yasu's situation in the many different types of Disassociative disorders...

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

Oh by the way, about George wandering around, even though this particular scenario doesn't have him successfully finding Shannon, I think we can take EP3 as a scenario where he *does* find Shannon and she's not truly dead yet. In that case Shannon is forced to shoot him, it seems. In EP2, if George won't 'let go' of Shannon, it seems she's forced to shoot him and anyone else as soon as there's a chance.

So I think that's the answer to that question.

If she notices George seeing her. Spotting Kanon or Beatrice or whoever strangling Kumasawa could certainly dull his desire to catch up with her. Banquet is a good example of disposing of George when he goes looking for someone, but at that point it would've been much easier to do because the dirty work of the FT had long already been done. It's even arguable that George was lured out in that situation, meaning it was probably intentional that she wanted to kill him off.

Unfortunately that scene only makes it more likely to believe George simply wouldn't give up on it. Surely he'd at least go to the mansion first and look around rather than walk back to the guesthouse.

[Jan-Poo]

Yasu does sound like she has some mild form of this particular disorder.

Hmmm... I don't really see that... borderline personality disorder is primarily characterized by quite noticeable impulsive behavior and recurrent episodes of self-harm or threat of self-harm, which is usually done to gather attention.

That's basically your stereotypical emo.

In addition this disorder doesn't explain Yasu's delusional behavior nor her multiple personalities or her living in her own world.

I think Yasu bends definitely more towards the psychosis spectrum rather than being in between psychosis and neurosis as in the case of Borderline personality disorder.

Also where's the constant shift between hyperidealization and devalorization of others?


The lack of mention of the name "Yasu" might be because our confession is basically Beatrice's legacy. She always hated that name, and anyway I think Beatrice/Yasu are basically the same person. No I mean not like Shannon and Kanon, but the same personality.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Renall

Unfortunately that scene only makes it more likely to believe George simply wouldn't give up on it. Surely he'd at least go to the mansion first and look around rather than walk back to the guesthouse.

Which scene? You mean EP3 or the Confessions scenario?

But yeah, I'd just assume that he would search the mansion or guesthouse but not something like that Chapel. Unless someone told him they found her body there. He'd for sure would want to break in there if that was the case. But I would agree with Beato in Confessions, that his search would not include some other places due to weather, like the forest.


In addition, thinking to EP4 now, there surely was some kind of confrontation between George and Shannon before she shot him with probably the sawed off shotgun. I bet Shannon told George what was going on and he agreed to go off with Shannon and forsake the rest of his family to death, before she killed him. (And that would have proved that they would have been able to achieve their love. And thus the scenario was over. This is as per Ryukishi says in his interviews... )

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Hmmm... I don't really see that... borderline personality disorder is primarily characterized by quite noticeable impulsive behavior and recurrent episodes of self-harm or threat of self-harm, which is usually done to gather attention.
...
In addition this disorder doesn't explain Yasu's delusional behavior nor her multiple personalities or her living in her own world.

I think Yasu bends definitely more towards the psychosis spectrum rather than being in between psychosis and neurosis as in the case of Borderline personality disorder.

Also where's the constant shift between hyperidealization and devalorization of others?

Yeah, that's why I said some kind of mild form of it. Yes, suicide, but no to constant self-harm. Yes, some impulsive behaviors such as collaborating with Maria to trick people, but nothing to the point of disorder where people are hurt. Etc...

The hyperidealization and devalorization of others seems to me to be in her portrayals of the rest of the Ushiromiya family. Although not really to such extremes as the article describes, the stories seem to be say things like, "Rosa's the greatest mom in the world" who "slaps and mistreats Maria all the time." Eva and Natsuhi also have their own opposite characterizations too. Kinzo (not EP8, of course) also has his 'Great Genius' and 'Cruel Old Man' portrayals as well. But I can't decide if this is just the concept of realizing that people are both good and bad instead.

Anyways, I'm thinking it's possible to fit her into *some* kind of disassociative disorders. What I saw in the article was: "as well as a disturbance in the individual's sense of self. In extreme cases, this disturbance in the sense of self can lead to periods of dissociation." So I guess there may be other disorders that share this point, but I don't know enough of the field to find all the different kinds of disorders.

[ErenselTheJester]

Here are answers for EP2

Spoiler for My Answers to EP2:

EP2- Rosa and Kyrie sees Beatrice:

Spoiler for Spoiler:

Yasu had dressed up as Beatrice to start prepping up for the fake murders and presented herself to Rosa and Kyrie to startle everyone. A change in tactics obviously. Maybe instead of using a direct approach like in the first game, Yasu wanted to startle some suspicion in them so that when she talks them later about her plan, they would be a little bit more convinced.

EP2- The First Twilight:

Spoiler for Spoiler:

The adults had faked their deaths, disguising it with very vivid corpses and gold ingots. Beatrice had disappeared as well, making her a scapegoat for the murders.

EP2- The Second Twilight:

Spoiler for Spoiler:

Also a fake murder. Kanon had disappeared as well, making him a scapegoat for this murder.

EP2- The Fourth Twilight:

Spoiler for Spoiler:

Shannon had committed suicide.

EP2- The Fifth Twilight:

Spoiler for Spoiler:

George was killed by Shannon.

EP2- The Sixth Twilight:

Spoiler for Spoiler:

Gohda was killed by Shannon.

EP2- The Seventh Twilight:

Spoiler for Spoiler:

Nanjo was killed by another culprit.

EP2- The Eigth Twilight:

Spoiler for Spoiler:

Kumasawa was killed by another culprit.

EP2- The Ninth Twilight:

Spoiler for Spoiler:

Everyone is killed by the explosions.

EP2- The Third Twilight:

Spoiler for Spoiler:

Yasu had shown the Adults the Hidden Gold and revealed her story to them, making them accept her and her plan.

EP2- The Tenth Twilight (Just a summary):

Spoiler for Spoiler:

Howdunnit? The murders started off as a series of fakes, but they ended up real in the end.

Whodunnit? The Adults probably thought everything was a prank. Shannon was the cuprit for Twilights 4- 6. However, I can't figure out who killed Nanjo and Kumasawa neither who activated the bomb, though I assume its Yasu.

Whydunnit? Possibly as a halloween celebration for the Cousins to enjoy as well as to do something special for Battler's return. However, things ended up turning bad.

And here are my answers for EP4

Spoiler for My Answers to EP4:

EP4- Maria sees Kinzo:

Spoiler for Spoiler:

Maria was told by one of the adults to say that she had saw Kinzo. This indicates, again, another setup.

EP4- The First Twilight:

Spoiler for Spoiler:

There was no murder, Gohda and Kumasawa were acting.

EP4- The Second Twilight:

Spoiler for Spoiler:

Jessica and George faked their deaths.

EP4- The Fourth Twilight:

Spoiler for Spoiler:

Shannon was killed by the other culprit.

EP4- The Fifth Twilight:

Spoiler for Spoiler:

Kyrie was killed by the other culprit.

EP4- The Sixth Twilight:

Spoiler for Spoiler:

Nanjo was killed by the other culprit.

EP4- The Seventh Twilight:

Spoiler for Spoiler:

Krauss was killed by the other culprit.

EP4- The Eigth Twilight:

Spoiler for Spoiler:

Maria had faked hers.

EP2- The Ninth Twilight:

Spoiler for Spoiler:

The surivors are killed by the explosions.

EP2- The Third Twilight:

Spoiler for Spoiler:

Kumasawa and Gohda had faked their deaths.

EP2- The Tenth Twilight (Just a summary):

Spoiler for Spoiler:

Howdunnit? The murders started off as a series of fakes, but they ended up real in the end.

Whodunnit? The Adults probably thought everything was a prank. Shannon was the cuprit for Twilights 4- 6. However, I can't figure out who killed Nanjo and Kumasawa neither who activated the bomb, though I assume its Yasu.

Whydunnit? Possibly as a halloween celebration for the Cousins to enjoy as well as to do something special for Battler's return. However, things ended up turning bad.

And that's it, I don't have one for EP3 because I can't recall some moments.

So am I close or not?

[Kylon99]

Erensel, didn't you read all the spoilers from the Our Confessions booklet these last few pages? Or are you trying to avoid them still?

If you are, then ... um...

Spoiler for Do we need Umineko Confessions Solutions spoilers?:

From your list there, I would say in EP2, the clue as to who killed Kumasawa and Nanjo lie in the fact that they are killed out of order with George, Gouda and Shannon's group. In other words, Kumasawa and Nanjo were killed earlier, but given later twilights on purpose. So basically George, Gouda and Shannon, especially Shannon, was the last to die.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

Anyways, I'm thinking it's possible to fit her into *some* kind of disassociative disorders. What I saw in the article was: "as well as a disturbance in the individual's sense of self. In extreme cases, this disturbance in the sense of self can lead to periods of dissociation." So I guess there may be other disorders that share this point, but I don't know enough of the field to find all the different kinds of disorders.

I don't really think Yasu has some dissociative disorder... I think she was:
a) someone with the habit of creating immaginary friends
b) requested to play the role of Shannon
c) forced to close in a corner her childishness and mischievous spirit as well as to keep hidden her negative feelings
d) create a new immaginary friend and then ended up with the chance to impersonate/give life to it.

a) creating immaginary friends is not so uncomon in childs. Consider Yasu is an orphan, affection starved, forced to work from childhood, bullied by some of her coworked and can't show openly her friendship with Jessica. She also seem to have lot of immagination.
By 1986 she's a little older for immaginary friends but she can have kept the habit to pretend she had an immaginary friend (like talking on her own as if she were talking with someone else). In short she knows there's not Beatrice but she still might be talking to herself pretend she's here.
There's adult people who talk with cars and pc... so she should have outgrow it but it's still believable if she hasn't.

b) Yasu started working as a child, a work that required her a specific behaviour. Likely she was required to keep that behaviour when she was going to school as well. In addition she couldn't live on her own with a loving family but was forced to live in the house of her master. She probably felt a costant pressure into behaving in a certain way that, apparently, didn't match with her true inner self.

c) When she 'parts from Beato' the first time it's after Beato made a prank and because Beato wanted to be a witch. Though Beato in the story left on her own since the body is Shannon/Yasu, it's more likely that's a nice story and that in truth Yasu decided to close away/keep hidden that part of herself that was a prankster and had childish dreams (Beato will continue to play pranks).
When she 'lost' Battler she was likely forced not to act as sad and glomy as she felt. I doubt she had the chance to close herself in her room and cry for a day. If she were to do it there would have been explanations to make and they would be unpleasant. So she had to keep it hidden ence again to push it to Beatrice. Same goes for her anger.

d) Since she was giving to Beato another role she probably pretended in her mind someone else would confort her, ence Kanon. I've already said how I think Kanon took a body.

Giving in to Beatrice, obeying to her for me means that Shannon is merely doing what she really wants and not playing a role in which she was forced from childhood.

Now a good question would be why not to grab the gold and escape/track Battler?

An answer might be fear. She was probably scared to face reality.

Now the problem is: In Rokkenjima Prime did she really try to stage the murders? Or they were all merely tales and Rokkenjima was destroyed due to an incident unrelated to her?

That's something only Ryukishi knows. However if they're only tales it's still not a sign of a dissociative disorder if she has more than one character representing her in the tale. She's just fullfilling some of her fantasies.

[Kylon99]

Well, my speculation is from an earlier post, where I was saying it seems like Yasu doesn't actually have a real identity, like in the same way that you and I have one. We can all create personas that we can pretend to be, but at the same time we all have actions and motives that come from our real selves.

For Yasu, it's like it's Beatrice, Shannon and Kanon that has all the actions and motives. I haven't actually seen anything that can be ascribed to a Yasu (or a fourth personality, basically.) Except for maybe her dislike of the Yasuda name, but I'm not sure any of the backstory in EP7 for Yasu is real, or can be believed. (See below for what I mean.)

So I was thinking if there was a particular disorder where you lose the sense of self. There seem to be some people describing this feeling as a part of suffering some other psychological disorders though, so I'm thinking it's plausible.



By the way, regarding why I don't believe in EP7's back story... I believe in it's theme, but not its details. I believe it was a correct idea, by Bernkastel, to think of one actual woman behind the three different personas, but I believe she made up some extra details that weren't really fact checked. Her excuse, of course was that, "Well, all the info was lost in a big explosion, so hey, I can make up anything I want to fill in the gaps."

In essence, this goes back to when I was talking about the Author Theory and why it wasn't useless, when I talked about the Historical Method Theory. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_method) Basically, when historians are presented with pieces of information, they can discover the existance of a primary source. For example, if there were two biographies of Caesar 500 years later on his conquering of the Gauls, then they reasonably assume that he existed and probably went to west Europe and fought the Gauls. But if they claim that Caesar killed 500,000 Gauls and only lost 90 men, they tend to not believe the specific of the claims. They say that, perhaps it was a decisive victory, but not so one-sided and was exaggerated by the biographer.

In the same way for EP7, I believe it's general themes are correct, but it (perhaps purposely for the sake of cruelty on the part of Bernkastel) gets the details wrong.

[UsagiTenpura]

My impression on "our confession" so far....

It's like the "making of" of Umineko. If that's the extent of the mystery story, I'm not even sure I'd call it a story period.
It sounds really like fantasy is the real story in mind, but she decided to make a fantasy story built atop of a mystery working, that works in a similar way as actors in a play would.

Interesting thing to me: No mention of Shkanontrice being based on disguise whatoever.
Another interesting thing: I dare hope that the fricking confirmation that Shkanontrice piece has no motives outside of meta, that whoever was trying to find a logic for Erika's behavior on the board that didn't count on meta will just give up doing so.


All in all this is pretty much, as far as I'm confirmed, a confirmation that Rokkenjima prime doesn't even exist.

Edit: A theory of sort. Shannon and Kanon both count as different human pieces because they are strickly speaking different humans. They are like characters in an MMOrpg only these two happens to only have a single player behind them, so he can't play both at the same time. In Shkanon's case it sorta sounds like "both are logged on" (until she disconnects one) but she can't really control both at once.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

Well, my speculation is from an earlier post, where I was saying it seems like Yasu doesn't actually have a real identity, like in the same way that you and I have one. We can all create personas that we can pretend to be, but at the same time we all have actions and motives that come from our real selves.

For Yasu, it's like it's Beatrice, Shannon and Kanon that has all the actions and motives. I haven't actually seen anything that can be ascribed to a Yasu (or a fourth personality, basically.) Except for maybe her dislike of the Yasuda name, but I'm not sure any of the backstory in EP7 for Yasu is real, or can be believed. (See below for what I mean.)

So I was thinking if there was a particular disorder where you lose the sense of self. There seem to be some people describing this feeling as a part of suffering some other psychological disorders though, so I'm thinking it's plausible.

Well, if Yasu really planned to kill and destroy everything she can't be mentally sane... though I've asked to a friend who studied psychology in university and Yasu's behaviour doesn't really fit a personality disorder.
So to me her personas are more like identities she gives to the part of herself.
Sort of like... well, usually is used for comic effect but have you ever seen those scenes in cartoon in which there's a guy with a guardian angel and a devil on his shoulders and he talks with them?
Though for a more 'realistic feeling' there was a novel of Stephen King in which a woman chained to a bed labelled each though that came to her mind as if they were quotes from different people when in fact they represent different parts of her personality (though she's in an insane situation).

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Interesting thing to me: No mention of Shkanontrice being based on disguise whatoever.
Another interesting thing: I dare hope that the fricking confirmation that Shkanontrice piece has no motives outside of meta, that whoever was trying to find a logic for Erika's behavior on the board that didn't count on meta will just give up doing so.


All in all this is pretty much, as far as I'm confirmed, a confirmation that Rokkenjima prime doesn't even exist.

Well, I haven't read it yet so maybe I'm mistaken but I've thought Rokkenjima Prime might exist as inspiration but not connected to the games.
In short there was really an Ushiromiya family and, due to a coincidence, something went wrong and nobody apart from Eva and possibly Yasu and Battler survived but that's all.
On Rokkenjima no epitaph murder took place nor any other type of killing.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

All in all this is pretty much, as far as I'm confirmed, a confirmation that Rokkenjima prime doesn't even exist.

How does that follow what preceded it, like, at all?

You're drawing a pretty vast conclusion from something that doesn't even really address that matter at all.

[UsagiTenpura]

I'm drawing conclusion on it not addressing it at all and implying just way too much meta (including that the whole thing is what Dlanor released after Meta-Beatrice's death).
I havent said that it confirmed it for everyone either. To me however it really did so.
I think at this point Rokkenjima Prime is a devil's proof.

However it's really time for us to take conclusion cause there won't be any more material. I look at the overall of everything and I am certain from it that "the coin" is a meta-story, and one side is the game's workings, a mystery, while the other is the game's narrative, a fantasy. So that really doesn't leave much place for a prime.

I believe Ange's story to be a story, a tale like any others, which could be considered a "prime" story I guess, but I don't see it as any more important to the overall story then any other arc's story. I think in that logic that our confession can pretty much sum up a lot of mysteries like the money sent to the relatives. Yet that there is connection between what happens "in the story" and "in Ange's world" only makes me assume even more that the later is not any more real then the others.

I should probably say it the other way around tho. It's not that Ange's story is not any more real then the others, it's that the others aren't any more fake then Ange's story.