Shakugan no Shana II - Episode 16 Discussion / Poll

[jin07]

I equated it because:

shallow: lacking in depth and when used as a derogative term equates to superficial (among other things). I think we agree on that.

Superficial: presenting only an appearance without substance or significance (Merriam-Webster)


Underdeveloped: not adequately developed

For developed I couldn't really find anything specially about characters in fiction (kept getting it in relation to countries). But when I think of a developed character I think of someone with substance.

Although now that I look at it a little closer I probably committed the Fallacy of Equivocation by mistake. I usually don't vet stuff I post on anime forums beyond trying to find spelling errors.

Thanks for pointing out the Yoshida starting to like Yuuji thing. I forgot about that since I saw that episode a couple years ago. Still I don't think I'll continue this since it has turned less into a debate about a fictional character and more about attacking me.

[Tokkan]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Really Kazumi is just an unnecessary obstacle, just from the opening you can tell she's gonna be that stupid retard that gets kidnapped because she insist in being in a world she doesn't belong in causing an unnecessary battle being leverage for the bad guys...

I don't think she's going to be kidnapped, much in the same way we never saw Shana fight Sydonay or Sydonay ever use his staff to fight, even though those show up in OPs.

[cryx]

I guess a major event / plot turn presents an opportunity for a character to make a choice, a chance to make a turning point and a decision, and this pretty much resonates around the viewers too, with the much stronger and decisive opinions on Yoshida Kazumi. There are those who see this as a chance for her to exit the scene, and others who see that she will become stronger. Regardless of the outcome, isn't it nice that the overall plot has finally progressed out of the "day-by-day" school life, and finally have some anticipation as to what will come next? I think we should all take this in a healthy fashion and not take the discussion too personally. We all develop feelings towards the characters, but let's not overstep and force opinions onto others.

I agree that Kazumi's (I guess it would be impolite to address strangers by their first name, but I think we can safely refer to the characters as our "friends") character has not been fully developed in the story, and she seems so close and yet so far. We roughly know her personality, that she is polite and shy, and passionate and persistent when it comes to emotional matters. She also seems like the kind that is organised, loves the simple little things of life, and one who wants to lead a simple, peaceful, and maybe idealised romantic life. However, we hardly see her everyday life. We do not know her hobbies and life outside of school (Yuji and Yukari visit the CD store after school, Hayato plays the arcade, has cram school), and there are no opportunities for her to show the different sides of her life (she's good at cooking, but we don't see that except just the bentos that she prepares). We hardly see her normal life outside school, except for weirdly-timed sequences like the midnight dog walk.

Yet, she has been given a relatively big role in the story, being an important part as a catalyst and motivation for the development of Yuji's and Shana's relationship, and at the same time, having her own feelings deeply examined in several episodes. There would be no denying that any discussion on emotions of love would be incomplete without jealousy, and one would not exist without the other, for jealousy turns love into something that needs to be protected and makes it precious. Besides, the development of feelings through human interaction, the understanding of love through jealousy, can also be contrasted with the Tomogara's definition of love, which is twisted and unfounded, and has no basis of understanding. (This is just my opinion, I guess this could lead to a discussion from The Matrix, on whether non-humans can truly understand love and human emotions from their literal meaning.)

It would be hard to make a decision if all we know is Kazumi's feelings for Yuji, and yet we know so little of her in person. Perhaps... that is how Yuji feels too?

It would be unfair to say the Kazumi does not play an important role in the plot. However, it would seem that her role is unbalanced, and it is this awkardness is causing much of the polar arguments.

[minhtam1638]

You know what I think? I think Kazumi needs her own episode. It should settle the arguments you guys have been ranting on and on about for hours...

[ZODDGUTS]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

I mentioned this before, but I think that seeing Shana and Yuji discovering what its like to be in a real relationship and at the same time deal with the dangers of their super natural lives. For once I would like to see that, rather than a beaten to death Love Triangle.

That's what I would like to that sort of relationship between Yuji and Shana to get into but instead were getting a old tired out love triangle going between Shan, Yuji and Yoshida for two seasons now. This is why I want Yoshida to finally go away (not to die per say) as long she's there this whole love triangle will still be going, I have a bad feeling if there's a 3rd season there still be doing the whole love triangle plot. It doesn't exactly help her character that pretty much she's shown it's mostly her whining about wishing to get closer to Yuji another thing I feel that's really gotten old and tired out she's been doing this since season one.

[Deathscyther]

Well, no matter what anyone says, I liked the episode quite a bit^^
I gave it a 8 out of 10

It was a good cooldown episode after such a packed action episode last week. We learn more about Yuji's situation and get to see how everyone is reacting to the latest developments. I like how Yuji is finally going to begin his training with Blutsauger. It's a bit late, but who cares. Now we can see Yuji kick some ass

And I don't mind the Kazumi scenes at all. I don't like her character very much, but that's because she hasn't done much in the series. She's there for the romantic part of the story, but when it comes to action, she's useless. But I do realize and understand why she's in the situation she is now. She likes Yuji and she knows that she's close to him, but at the same time she's far away, because they live in 'different worlds'

Just like Shana, Kazumi wants to be with Yuji no matter what and she's willing to do everything to walk into that other world. But she's no flame haze or guze no tomogara. She's just a human who can't do anything but watch. She hates this and gets emotional about it, especially because she can see that Shana and Yuji are getting closer in that world. She reacts like I would react if I were to be in the same situation. It's only human.

I agree that we need to learn a bit more about her character though. She's a bit underdevelopped. I agree with that. She has to put some spicy situations in the love triangle. We need some action in that department as well. But don't get me wrong, I'm a Yuji x Shana fan all the way:P

[cryx]

Originally Posted by minhtam2448

You know what I think? I think Kazumi needs her own episode. It should settle the arguments you guys have been ranting on and on about for hours...

Guess she's getting more attention than she needs, eh? Even Hayato, with his own episode, doesn't get this much discussion...

Spoiler for Possible spoiler, but may be just wrong info:

& the wiki entry still isn't edited, regarding Hayato being a torch.

Seems like he really doesn't matter much anymore...

[teachopvutru]

Originally Posted by minhtam2448

You know what I think? I think Kazumi needs her own episode. It should settle the arguments you guys have been ranting on and on about for hours...

And this thread should become the Yoshida Kazumi Character Discussion Thread instead. (and last episode thread becomes Sakai Yuji Character Discussion Thread)

I'm ready for a Shana one.

[Owaranai Destiny]

Originally Posted by cryx

Guess she's getting more attention than she needs, eh? Even Hayato, with his own episode, doesn't get this much discussion...

Spoiler for Not out yet in the anime!:

& the wiki entry still isn't edited, regarding Hayato being a torch. Seems like he really doesn't matter much anymore...

You might want to put that in a spoiler tag, actually, since I'm pretty sure there are people out there who don't know about Ike.

@ jin07: I must have given you that impression. Sorry, I don't attack people. I attack their arguments.

For Kazumi to give up, I'm getting the feeling that only Yuuji can actually manage to do that. Once he rejects her completely, that should end everything in the love triangle.

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by Owaranai Destiny

You might want to put that in a spoiler tag, actually, since I'm pretty sure there are people out there who don't know about Ike.

@ jin07: I must have given you that impression. Sorry, I don't attack people. I attack their arguments.

For Kazumi to give up, I'm getting the feeling that only Yuuji can actually manage to do that. Once he rejects her completely, that should end everything in the love triangle.

It's not a spoiler as it's not true

[cryx]

Originally Posted by Sterling01

It's not a spoiler as it's not true

Yup, I thought it wasn't true... think it's mentioned from the novels discussion thread. But guess I could've been more careful though, since it is something undiscussed before here.

[HayashiTakara]

Kazumi should become a torch be happy for a week that she finally got to be apart of the super natural world, then disappear forever. thats a happy ending if I ever saw one.

[Tokkan]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Kazumi should become a torch be happy for a week that she finally got to be apart of the super natural world, then disappear forever. thats a happy ending if I ever saw one.

Yeah? Well how about... NO!!

I don't really agree that that's a happy ending.

[Solace]

Kazumi is the kind of character that you don't want around because she gets in the way of screen time for the main characters. She's certainly important to the story, but she's not popular because it feels like she doesn't fit in - with the supernatural world, with Yuji and Shana's relationship, none of it really. It's easily understandable why she's in the story and it's easy to see why she'd be unpopular, but she has a roll to play and that's all there is to it. At least she's more pivotal than the crap we had to put up with for half the second season involving Konoe.

I don't know what happens in the novels but it seems like there are only two roads to go in the Shana universe - you either become supernatural, or you fade out of the story. What I believe is that her new trinket is the most pivotal element of the story so far, because it's setting up a tragic element.

Personally I don't know what I would do in her position. Such a terrible choice to give someone. Sometimes I ponder if it's just a test by Pheles.

[Sinestra]

Wow i knew people thought Yoshida was annoying but damn a lot of people are actually wishing for her death. I dont think i would want to see her die plus god knows what it would do to Yuuji i think he would lose it. So far none of his close friends have died he has not prepared himself for that possibility yet.

[Aquifina]

I finally got around to seeing the subs, and I will only make this comment.

Hooray for Yuji snapping out of his recent funk, and asking for blutsauger! I don't necessarily blame him for his recent passivity (silver coming out of his chest must have been a shock), but it's nice to see the quietly assertive Sakai Yuji make a comeback, as opposed to the moping panicky guy we've seen the last couple of eps.

[holyman282]

Wow just watched this ep! What a turn of events! When i first saw the preview in ep 15 i thought Yoshida was finally going to be useful with a hougo of her own, but it turns out that the Hougo is to summon Pheles and it would kill her!

I guess that's one way to resolve the Yoshida/Shana/Yuji love triangle... Instead of hooking her up with Ike, you could just kill her off i guess lol..

I'm not sure why everyone hates Yoshida, but wanting her to die is a bit harsh don't you think? I really felt sorry for her this ep especially when you thought that once she disappears Shana and Yuji would be together.... That is sad....

Also really liked the new OP Yuji looks so cool with the Blautsauger!!!

[Irenicus]

Originally Posted by holyman282

I'm not sure why everyone hates Yoshida, but wanting her to die is a bit harsh don't you think?

Spoiler for Warning! Long rant follows:

It's the scriptwriters' fault. I liked her in the first season (she had a point to be there: being Yuji's bridge to the normal world pretty much; and the confession scene was touching -- moreover, her role in the slice-of-life episodes wasn't bad either). Starting the second season, I didn't mind her presence at all. It's just same-old same-old after all; nothing could go wrong, right?

...well, until the fillers.

There, first, with Shana (sorry Shana fans, I won't absolve the Flame Haze of this guilt either), she mopes around for God knows how long being bothered about a certain Hecate-lookalike getting dangerously close to a suddenly-promoted-to-harem-lead Sakai Yuji. Once? Okay, plot development is plot development. Let's see where this is going. Twice? Again? Thrice? Whatever. The [lalala-ing] goddam nth time? ENOUGH! ...or so I thought. What is the staff thinking, bashing the audience over and over with that?

Now, at least Shana was the main character. And admit it if Yuji's not going to be single then he's going to be with the titular character; the universe and my world view will fall apart otherwise. Her trials and tribulations and little angsty episodes are much more acceptable based on this assumption. What's an anime high school romance without idiotic angst? I came to accept this fact long ago...

Of course I was annoyed by then, but hating Yoshida? Nah. In fact I didn't like how so many of the show's fans were complaining so much back then either. I thought: "Gee, what a hard-to-please bunch. Can't they just keep quiet and watch?" Well, I was wrong. When the pair of jealous ladies reconciled and said "I won't lose" and did all the girl-bonding and stuff, I thought, "Sweet! Now we can get the real thing." Unfortunately, we didn't get the real thing, we got more of the same; moreover, instead of angst we got something worse: cheesy unconvincing forced friendship! Lame, lame, lame. I started to dislike Yoshida. In fact I started to lose faith in Shana, wasn't she supposed to be an action girl or something? And every time the "I won't lose" coupled with forced smiles thing came up I rolled my eyes in frustration. What incompetence among the scriptwriters; they can't even come up with something different to fill up time! At least put in that much effort!

The more this came up, the more the dislike was solidified. Yet even then I wasn't about to be a vocal detractor and started asking for Yoshida Kazumi's fictional death. No, it was episode 13 that sealed the deal. I believe I expressed my initial disappointment (now reversed by the rest of the arc) back then, even against the vast majority of the fans here on Suki who seemed to finally see the dawn after a long, dark night. While Pheles' apparent lack of weight back then was a factor, what really made me annoyed was how Yoshida Kazumi simply did not belong there. Everything was being smashed to pieces, Yuji caught up, Wilhelmina in shock, Ms. Carebear on a rampage, and Shana fighting for her life. And Kazumi? "I wish I was up there with Sakai-kun."

That's it. She's dead. I wouldn't have minded her out of place remark nearly as much were it not for the scriptwriters forcing her character to say the same bloody annoying things from the early episodes throughout the season. But since that's what happened, I now hate her. And I really can't stand the idiot big-busted blonde anymore.

If she's going to go and have a happy ending with Ike or whatever, I don't mind. If she's going to say A Farewell to Fuzetsu and leave the scene content, I don't mind either. But unless she gets out or stop spouting those lines again and again somehow I'll continue to demand her skull to make a drinking cup for the Tsar of the Bulgarians.

'is my 2 Thoreni.

[Skullator]

Ok so I only just started watching this ep now since I'm lazy.

But I will say I just watched the best OP artistically in years.

[OkamiNoKaze]

Kinda Harsh there Pheles, wow. the thing is, even if Kazumi were to use that, Yuji would still remember her , and depending on the circumstances of using it, would feel horrible.