Aquarion EVOL - generic discussion thread

[hyl]

Originally Posted by Adigard

Not to derail this any further (if that's even possible), but can we maybe define this whole "main" character thing?

Typically stories that have either a singular 'main character' the story stays with throughout, or it swaps between multiple 'characters'.

Saying a story can have many main characters is like saying a story can have multiple protagonists. It's sort of meaningless to the origins of the word. Saying a story can have a main character who is not the protagonist when the two words mean pretty much the same thing is equally odd.

I will agree stores can have multiple characters and spend time looking out at the world from each of their viewpoints... but each character isn't really the main character, per se. They're just characters at that point. I agree the main character does not have to be the hero... he can be a narrator or sidekick type role.

Minor nitpick, sorry.

Let's take something like a group as an example. Can you pick 1 single main character if you look at a sentai serie like Kaizoku Sentai Gokaiger? I have my doubts, because in a way the whole group is pretty much just as important indivually. Of course, there are episodes in which one get mre focus than the others but those function to add more development

[DragoonKain3]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Not really - at least to me it didn't seem like they did it to spite shippers (which would be my definition of "trolling").

See, the problem lies with 'intention'. Considering none of us are Kawamori or even the staff who decided MF's course, we can never be too sure whether they intended to or not, apart from the knowledge that the ending was planned (premeditated if you will) all along.

So what are we left with if you take out 'intention'? The audience's response to the event. And going by the final impressions thread and especially the final episode thread of MF, I'd say a good number felt 'trolled'. Heck a good number specifically used that term.

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

That why you won't get the usual shipping rage that plagues these types of shows. So that should something happen you'll be pleasantly surprised rather than expecting it and end up being very annoyed. Considering how this thread is going if Kagura doesn't end up with Mikono there's going to be a lot of rage...

I personally would like to see YOUR reaction if indeed Kagura ends up with Mikono, considering you seem so deadset against the couple. XD

Having been a HARDCORE shipper for well over a decade (You think shipping wars nowadays are bad? They've got nothing on the Asuka vs Rei debate back when NGE was in its prime), the best way to avoid shipping rage is to keep an OPEN MIND about ALL the possibilities. It's those people who in their minds closed off possibilities that rage the most, when one of the 'closed possibilities' happened in the show/book/movie they are watching.

I personally don't mind either way Mikono goes to, apart from a slight leaning to Kagura simply because of the Romeo/Juliet kinda feel. Kinda like Macross, when I didn't really mind Ranka or Sheryl (my OTP in that anime was Klan/Michel), though I leaned more towards Ranka if only because of a slight Romeo/Juliet feel due to her being... you know.

All of this goes without saying that there exists one special exception of course. If one couple is revealed to have known each other when they were kids, then my shipping tendencies HEAVILY shifts into their favour. Kinda like Macross F... not that it's gonna happen in this show (there's a small hope but unlikely).

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

I said it's highly unlikely he'll become the main character, which it is. He'll probably turn sides or at least join the good guys in some respect and become the most important character outside of Amata it's just very unlikely he'll become equal to or greater than Amata in importance. Looking at what happens in the vast, vast, vast majority of anime I'd be right.

Why am I being demonised for this point of view when really you all know this is the most likely outcome. Come on.

I think you're being 'demonised' because you think it's highly unlikely that Kagura will become a 'main character' because...

Point 1) You're basing this on the 'single protagonist' viewpoint, when many books/shows/movies can have multiple protagonists

Point 2) You're basing Kagura's unlikeliness to be a main character based on the 'vast majority of anime', when you should be basing it on the original Aquarion

Point 3) You're closing off Kagura's potential to be as equal in importance to story as Amata, when the groundwork is there for Kagura to be the 'other half' of Amata.


Now this is your arguement...

Premise A) Kagura will most likely not be a main character

Premise B) Mikono is the main heroine of the series

Premise C) The main heroine will most likely end up with a main character

Conclusion - Kagura will most likely not end up with Mikono

Considering Premise A is unsound (because of the points 1, 2, and 3 I explained above) and thus makes your arguement fall apart, that is where people have a beef with you.


Not that I'm trying to change your viewpoint right now (I know I won't be able to), but just clearing the confusion as to why you think you're being 'demonised' (which I don't think you are being subjected to either).

[Casshern]

I don't like Kagura because he calls Mikono a wench.

Anyway, gonna miss Shrade if he dies. Not only did I like his pompous, over the top character, but he also gave me endless laughs with the way he spoke, reminding me of the riverside literature girl in nichibros.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Casshern

I don't like Kagura because he calls Mikono a wench.

Yeah, I wish he'd tone that down. Yes, yes, I know he probably has a heart of gold and all that, as characters like him tend to, but gah, that "kuso onna" is seriously grating.

Shrade can't die, he just made it to the ED. And who's going to fuel Sazanka's fantasies if he's dead? Don't die, Shrade~

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

See, the problem lies with 'intention'. Considering none of us are Kawamori or even the staff who decided MF's course, we can never be too sure whether they intended to or not, apart from the knowledge that the ending was planned (premeditated if you will) all along.

So what are we left with if you take out 'intention'? The audience's response to the event. And going by the final impressions thread and especially the final episode thread of MF, I'd say a good number felt 'trolled'. Heck a good number specifically used that term.

I dunno, to me it makes sense that they planned it all along. I mean, the triangle was the main theme of the show, if they resolve it in the end of the series then many people won't be as interested in the movies because they already know how it ends - also, the loser "team" would feel alienated. Hence, open ending for the series, resolution in the movies. (I'm pretty sure that they planned the movies from the start, if Frontier did well enough... and it was obvious from the first couple of episodes that it would do well enough.) Of course I can't say for certain that there was no-one on the staff who went "the shippers will have kittens trololol" but I'd like to think there was a more reasonable explanation behind it... ^^;;

(And to make this even more off-topic, re: trolling... I dunno, lately it seems people use "trolling" when they mean "the story doesn't go the way I hoped/thought it would." To me trolling would be Kawamori pushing say, AltoxRanka and randomly pulling an AltoxSheryl in the very last minute. Or if he had the two girls ditch Alto and hook up with each other in the last episode. I would've liked that, though. 8D Something like "I wanted to see a resolution and I didn't get one" is IMO not trolling.)

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

See, the problem lies with 'intention'. Considering none of us are Kawamori or even the staff who decided MF's course, we can never be too sure whether they intended to or not, apart from the knowledge that the ending was planned (premeditated if you will) all along.

So what are we left with if you take out 'intention'? The audience's response to the event. And going by the final impressions thread and especially the final episode thread of MF, I'd say a good number felt 'trolled'. Heck a good number specifically used that term.




I personally would like to see YOUR reaction if indeed Kagura ends up with Mikono, considering you seem so deadset against the couple. XD

Having been a HARDCORE shipper for well over a decade (You think shipping wars nowadays are bad? They've got nothing on the Asuka vs Rei debate back when NGE was in its prime), the best way to avoid shipping rage is to keep an OPEN MIND about ALL the possibilities. It's those people who in their minds closed off possibilities that rage the most, when one of the 'closed possibilities' happened in the show/book/movie they are watching.

I personally don't mind either way Mikono goes to, apart from a slight leaning to Kagura simply because of the Romeo/Juliet kinda feel. Kinda like Macross, when I didn't really mind Ranka or Sheryl (my OTP in that anime was Klan/Michel), though I leaned more towards Ranka if only because of a slight Romeo/Juliet feel due to her being... you know.

All of this goes without saying that there exists one special exception of course. If one couple is revealed to have known each other when they were kids, then my shipping tendencies HEAVILY shifts into their favour. Kinda like Macross F... not that it's gonna happen in this show (there's a small hope but unlikely).




I think you're being 'demonised' because you think it's highly unlikely that Kagura will become a 'main character' because...

Point 1) You're basing this on the 'single protagonist' viewpoint, when many books/shows/movies can have multiple protagonists

Point 2) You're basing Kagura's unlikeliness to be a main character based on the 'vast majority of anime', when you should be basing it on the original Aquarion

Point 3) You're closing off Kagura's potential to be as equal in importance to story as Amata, when the groundwork is there for Kagura to be the 'other half' of Amata.


Now this is your arguement...

Premise A) Kagura will most likely not be a main character

Premise B) Mikono is the main heroine of the series

Premise C) The main heroine will most likely end up with a main character

Conclusion - Kagura will most likely not end up with Mikono

Considering Premise A is unsound (because of the points 1, 2, and 3 I explained above) and thus makes your arguement fall apart, that is where people have a beef with you.


Not that I'm trying to change your viewpoint right now (I know I won't be able to), but just clearing the confusion as to why you think you're being 'demonised' (which I don't think you are being subjected to either).

The words What? come to mind. You don't even have a logical complete arguement and yet your saying mine falls apart. It's not even proven that Kagura IS another protagonist, that's entirely in your head and has yet to be proven (maybe he is maybe he's not but it's certainly not proven). So how about before you state someone else's arguement has fallen apart get some facts.

COLD HARD FACTS. You can't say my arguemnt is wrong or falls apart much like I can't say yours is wrong even though I believe it's very unlikely, since there's very little data to work with (and a lot of bias on your end). We deal in probabilites so unless you can bring force logical fallacies in my arguement BASED ON THE SHOW, you deal in probabilities and leave it at that.

These crazy kids dealing in absolutes to base or discredit some else's arguements when their isn't none. I am dissapoint.

[DragoonKain3]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

The words What? come to mind. You don't even have a logical complete arguement and yet your saying mine falls apart. It's not even proven that Kagura IS another protagonist, that's entirely in your head and has yet to be proven (maybe he is maybe he's not but it's certainly not proven). So how about before you state someone else's arguement has fallen apart get some facts.

All I'm saying is that as much as I can't prove Kagura is yet to be another protagonist, is that you also can't prove Kagura can NOT be another protagonist somewhere down the road.

COLD HARD FACTS. You can't say my arguemnt is wrong or falls apart much like I can't say yours is wrong even though I believe it's very unlikely, since there's very little data to work with (and a lot of bias on your end). We deal in probabilites so unless you can bring force logical fallacies in my arguement BASED ON THE SHOW, you deal in probabilities and leave it at that.

I dunno about you, but I'm equally open to the possibility that Kagura may or may not become a main character.

All I'm saying is the premise you have in "Kagura is likely not going to be a main character" is unsound when there is equal possibility for him to turn/not turn into one based on what I said before in points 1, 2, and 3. And since you can't say with certainty one way or another that Kagura will or will not become a MC, you also can't say with certainty one way or another that Kagura will or will not have a likely chance to end up with Mikono.

These crazy kids dealing in absolutes, to base or discredit some else's arguements when their isn't none. I am dissapoint.

At the very least, I don't resort to Ad Hominem (crazy kid) or Strawman (never did I say I deal in absolutes, when I'm equally as open to Kagura being a MC or not).

[kuromitsu]

Guys, guys! I have an idea!

Why not wait and see whether Kagura becomes a protagonist or not instead of having a completely pointless argument about it?


I know it's unorthodox but I think it might just work.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Guys, guys! I have an idea!

Why not wait and see whether Kagura becomes a protagonist or not instead of having a completely pointless argument about it?


I know it's unorthodox but I think it might just work.

Too late for that, once a shipping war starts it's almost impossible to stop with reason

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

All I'm saying is that as much as I can't prove Kagura is yet to be another protagonist, is that you also can't prove Kagura can NOT be another protagonist somewhere down the road.



I dunno about you, but I'm equally open to the possibility that Kagura may or may not become a main character.

All I'm saying is the premise you have in "Kagura is likely not going to be a main character" is unsound when there is equal possibility for him to turn/not turn into one based on what I said before in points 1, 2, and 3. And since you can't say with certainty one way or another that Kagura will or will not become a MC, you also can't say with certainty one way or another that Kagura will or will not have a likely chance to end up with Mikono.



At the very least, I don't resort to Ad Hominem (crazy kid) or Strawman (never did I say I deal in absolutes, when I'm equally as open to Kagura being a MC or not).

Some shit about my arguement failling apart due to your points... yeah no...., (it really didn't)

Anyway at least we're on the same here, I'll believe what i want and base the probablilty on my interpretation on shit and you believe whatever you want but lets not go around saying the other persons arguement falls to pieces based on unproven shit. mmkay.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Guys, guys! I have an idea!

Why not wait and see whether Kagura becomes a protagonist or not instead of having a completely pointless argument about it?


I know it's unorthodox but I think it might just work.

I've been saying this all along, I simply believe it's unlikely because I rarely see it happen. So shoot me

[Adigard]

Originally Posted by hyl

Let's take something like a group as an example. Can you pick 1 single main character if you look at a sentai series like Kaizoku Sentai Gokaiger? I have my doubts, because in a way the whole group is pretty much just as important individually. Of course, there are episodes in which one get more focus than the others but those function to add more development

I'm... not certain if you're agreeing or disagreeing here, honestly ^^

But like I said, it's more of a minor nitpick than anything else. Certainly not worth derailing things even further. There are plenty of shows without a singular main character, because they have multiple characters who share focus... but by definition there should only be a single main character, or multiple characters.

If you have more than one protagonist... he's no longer the chief actor, he's just another character.

[Zaresh]

I honestly think that it would be a lot better if we all avoid shipping and character wars, guys. It's not fun at all, and I think sometimes people just forgets that this story is written by someone else, so it is not going to be like they wish it to be.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by Adigard

There are plenty of shows without a singular main character, because they have multiple characters who share focus... but by definition there should only be a single main character, or multiple characters.

If you have more than one protagonist... he's no longer the chief actor, he's just another character.

I think much of the discussion here orbits around the idea that Kagura could become a protagonist, changing the dynamic of the show from having a central protagonist around whom the story revolves, to have multiple central characters (multiple protagonists) around whom the story will focus. Therein the show will lose having a centralized *main* character, but will have multiple characters of import through whom the story is driven and told. From there, Kagura and Amata may share equal screen time and importance. Some of us are merely hypothesizing the possibility and arguing that groundwork has been laid out, but not that it is necessarily an inevitable truth. We're not Okada/Kawamori, after all.

Originally Posted by Zaresh

I honestly think that it would be a lot better if we all avoid shipping and character wars, guys. It's not fun at all, and I think sometimes people just forget that this story is written by someone else, so it is not going to be like they wish it to be.

Frankly, I'm not sure how shipping and/or character wars have come into this. The entire discussion started between myself and tyson on the direction of Kagura's character in this story, where, at some point, I said that he has all the makings of a protagonist (odds against him, chasing the girl, screen time, implied importance to plot (and is very similar to the OS's main character)) and could, with proper writing direction, get face-lifted to the role of a protagonist along side Amata (or opposed, two protagonists need not be on the same side).

None of us ever talked about the certainty of the event, mearly its possibility and how it fit as an explanation for why his character has been structured the way it has: He's not unlikeable, he's constantly losing, and so on. You can go back to the original few posts between myself and tyson for the discussion.

[Zaresh]

I said that because some pages ago it was nearly a shipping war. And when we argue about who fits to be the protagonist in EVOL, sometimes we are mixing this shipping wishes on the discussion. I'm not talking about someone in particular, just reminding that shipping and character wars aren't funny. And when arguing about characters, it's easy to cross that line.

Long story short: I said that just in case it happens. I'm sorry if I offended someone.

[kuromitsu]

I agree with Zaresh.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by Zaresh

Long story short: I said that just in case it happens. I'm sorry if I offended someone.

Its not really a matter of offense, I was just clarifying that the heart of the discussion had nary a thing to do with shipping and/or character wars.

[OceanBlue]

For some reason, I feel like you guys are interchangeably switching around the definitions of a viewpoint character, a protagonist, and a main character. They aren't all the same thing.

[Adigard]

Originally Posted by OceanBlue

For some reason, I feel like you guys are interchangeably switching around the definitions of a viewpoint character, a protagonist, and a main character. They aren't all the same thing.

Thank god someone finally agrees with me ^_^

sorta... because technically isn't the definition of protagonist the chief actor, or main character?

I'd prefer viewpoint character / protagonist or main character / and hero.

[Zaresh]

Originally Posted by Vena

Its not really a matter of offense, I was just clarifying that the heart of the discussion had nary a thing to do with shipping and/or character wars.

Oh, Ok then .

In another note, I'm wondering why we still don't have a subforum for Aquarion. I never understand how this subforum thing works. It's because we are not enough users yet?

[LoveMeKags]

Spoiler for a pointless and useless conversation with Shinji:

Originally Posted by Shinji103

I'm talking about the movies. I thought that was obvious for the very reason you yourself stated; how is the TYV series ending not trolling the shippers?

I was just clarifying, geez, don't get your panties in a bunch.

Relationship-wise, Kawamori didn't troll us. I would definitely agree that Zero's ending was......less than satisfying (among other words I could use), but the triangle, at least, was resolved.

That's why I said "no comment." Because there is nothing to be said.

And when did Millia's skills as a pilot ever actually effect the series?

Oh yes, so she didn't save their lives twice in Macross and Macross 7. She also had no significant role in the final battle of 7. You've officially lost some people's eye by saying that. She was good at her job. She decided to leave it for various purposes. We could argue the question of why Max left his position if he was such a good pilot.

Um, wow, have you even bothered to read my posts?

Yes, I have. Very boring though.

Let me highlight the point that I'm really making and not the one you think I am : female pilots in mecha anime, good or bad, are 95% of the time treated as pointless.

That's because most of those females are good at hand-to-hand combat. Take Silvia for example there. They didn't say you have to be a good pilot to pilot during certain situations, especially war, they just say you have to be able to. And it's not like men have exactly been good at piloting. Actually, quite a few of them are rather bad at it, especially newbies who don't know what the hell they're doing. But you have to ask yourself: if you just stereotype that to female pilots, doesn't that kinda make the whole argument sexist?

Point out how many Gundam series-es have a significant female pilot who actually influences the plot with her piloting skills or can stand up to the main antagonist in combat.

I don't watch Gundam. The only ones I ever saw were Wing and Seed. I wasn't too big a fan of it. I'm just not joshing for extremely long series with pointless storylines and whatnot. Macross has less series than Gundam... and some are better than Gundam.

You have massively misunderstood the entire point I was trying to make.

No, I assure you that I did not. You basically said 90% of female pilots are bad. Well, the 90% of female pilots usually have no training. They also had no talent and were drafted to play those roles because the writers wanted them there. The fact is that men are also the same way. I could bring up the tons of pilots in Macross alone that were horrible pilots - and were MEN. You're actually stereotyping females to say they're bad pilots, which is actually sexist.

You know a better way to state your point is to point out how females and males have similar points of bad piloting, like I mentioned above with fresh male pilots being horrible at first.

If you'd read my first post where I clearly point out Haman Khan's awesomeness on the previous page and Zessica's great skillset at the top of this very page, you would have realized that before ever typing out what you did.

I skimmed through that. I didn't notice, I guess. Then again, everyone was talking back and forth, so I was trying to keep up with whose name was which.

I never once said all female pilots suck. Please actually read and understand what people are saying before you call them out on it.

You said "most." And sadly, disregarding the ones you actually liked, that means you think the others "suck."

Mecha combat-wise, he shafted her badly. Hence my point; if you're a female, you're either not siginifcant in battles with the big boys or you're relegated to being a sub-pilot.
And if the story setup itself made it impossible for Sylvia to take part in the final battle, then that just proves Kawamori had already decided on making her the damsel in distress and removing her from the Vector Luna seat well before.

Except she had good hand-to-hand combat skills which also made her very handy. But given the fact Toma had other plans, he trapped her. That's not shafting her but using her as bait for Apollo. If you haven't noticed, Kawamori loves to use that type of storyline. He did not shaft her, she became the key point of interest. By taking her out of the piloting gear, she began a point of interest. I say that brings her up a role.

Regardless, if you want to believe he shafted her and not see that he had another purpose for her in mind, that's your own opinion.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

How is that trolling? I mean yes, shippers didn't like it, but as someone who wasn't invested in either of the possible ships (I was much more interested in the relationship between Sheryl and Ranka) and who is not a fan of love triangles, I loved the "open" end, I thought it was a genius solution. Everyone is happy, no-one is bound by a canon solution and we're free to imagine who ends up with whom and how, etc. So the only time I felt there was any "trolling" going on it was when it turned out that it was just a hook so more people would go see the movies. Er, sorry, movies? What movies? I know of no Macross F movies. Ahem.

Well, I am talking about those that were unhappy about it. I was quite pleased. I still love my OTP in the series. AR forever! But their movie scenes weren't that bad. I still hate the movies for the sudden "must do everything in AS" because the character roles were changed so all the plot fell on Sheryl. So even if you did or did not watch the movies - which I'm sure you did just for seeing more of your ship - I still feel the series was a better watch just for the sake of the characters relationships.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Guys, guys! I have an idea!

Why not wait and see whether Kagura becomes a protagonist or not instead of having a completely pointless argument about it?


I know it's unorthodox but I think it might just work.

You know, I agree with this.

He's in the OP, so he is an important character, but there's no guarantee he's a main character yet. Though I think he is the main rival to Amata by the reaction I get from the OP.

[Shinji103]

@LoveMeKags - Protip: if you have something against pointless conversations, you can try reading what people post so you have more than half the picture.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

I was just clarifying, geez, don't get your panties in a bunch.

You didn't sound like it.

Oh yes, so she didn't save their lives twice in Macross and Macross 7. She also had no significant role in the final battle of 7. You've officially lost some people's eye by saying that. She was good at her job. She decided to leave it for various purposes. We could argue the question of why Max left his position if he was such a good pilot.

Wow, you still really need to read better. Any pilot on the battlefield saves lives; all the little grunts that get shot down, the mechanic guys, etc. But you never see Millia taking on Gavil or Gigil, much less taking them down, regardless of how good she is. Because the stereotype in mecha anime is that mecha battles are ze boyz' thing, which is why Mikono will most likely never be a steamrolling pilot, as is the point of my original post, which you obviously still haven't read. You really need to start paying attention to what people type.

Yes, I have. Very boring though.

Okay, now I'm just tempted to not bother since at this point you're obviously just trolling. >.> But I'll just finish this.

That's because most of those females are good at hand-to-hand combat. Take Silvia for example there. They didn't say you have to be a good pilot to pilot during certain situations, especially war, they just say you have to be able to. And it's not like men have exactly been good at piloting. Actually, quite a few of them are rather bad at it, especially newbies who don't know what the hell they're doing. But you have to ask yourself: if you just stereotype that to female pilots, doesn't that kinda make the whole argument sexist?

Wut? What does being good at hand-to-hand or not have to do with female pilots being shafted as inferior or lesser than the male pilots?
And sexist? You really haven't been listening; THAT'S MY WHOLE POINT. IF YOU'RE FEMALE, YOU'RE INSIGNIFICANT AS A PILOT IN A MECHA ANIME REGARDLESS OF SKILL. WHICH IS WHY MIKONO WILL MOST LIKELY NEVER BE A SHOWSTOPPING PILOT. OF COURSE IT'S SEXIST.
One of the few mecha anime with a female lead pilot ever recognized as a good series was Gunbuster. Most every other female mecha lead title was quickly forgotten.

I don't watch Gundam. The only ones I ever saw were Wing and Seed. I wasn't too big a fan of it. I'm just not joshing for extremely long series with pointless storylines and whatnot. Macross has less series than Gundam... and some are better than Gundam.

Aaaaand you have just largely invalidated your own opinion on my point. >.> Because if you did watch Gundam, you'd see where I'm coming from.

No, I assure you that I did not. You basically said 90% of female pilots are bad. Well, the 90% of female pilots usually have no training. They also had no talent and were drafted to play those roles because the writers wanted them there. The fact is that men are also the same way. I could bring up the tons of pilots in Macross alone that were horrible pilots - and were MEN. You're actually stereotyping females to say they're bad pilots, which is actually sexist.

Yes, I assure you you did miss my point. Of course men are the same way as women, just look at Kamille in Zeta. (but you don't watch Gundam, so again you illustrate that you're not in the best position to criticize this) He started off with zero real training, but by the halfway mark he's taking on enemy aces. The female pilots, not so much, save Haman Khan. Hell, Emma Sheen was a formally trained pilot and a Lieutenant before the series even started. Again, you are totally missing my point.

You know a better way to state your point is to point out how females and males have similar points of bad piloting, like I mentioned above with fresh male pilots being horrible at first.

.........anybody who watches mecha anime knows this already...........teenage kid with little to no pilot training and no combat experience hopping into mech and becoming ace pilot is pretty much CLICHE now. And if you don't watch mecha anime..............well, then you're not really in a good position to be commenting on mecha anime.

You said "most." And sadly, disregarding the ones you actually liked, that means you think the others "suck."

Well I'll concede to that. Because, unfortunately, it's true. In all of Zeta Gundam (again; it's a really good example), Haman was the only one who could really hold her own. All the other girls were just.....there. (and there were a lot of female pilots in Zeta) Fa Yuiry, in fact, is pretty much legendary in Gundam as the worst pilot of all time, though I somewhat disagree, because she still did survive the series unlike most of her colleagues on all sides.
If you want another example, Nena Trinity in Gundam 00 was probably the worst pilot in the whole series, who was treated as a mere stepping stone all the way until the end. Louise Harvey was incredibly unimpressive and just served to provide character conflict for her boyfriend Saji, and Soma Peries was a great pilot who actually did good stuff in season 1, but faded into insignificance in season 2. (a fact which her fans are very unhappy about)
If you look at a lot of mecha series-es, you'll see that the females are portrayed as either bad pilots, or they don't accomplish anything significant to the plot or story as actual pilots. As per my whole point, this is because mecha anime is considering a man's thing, and females are, to be blunt, inferior. Yes, it's sexist, absolutely. I don't see why female pilots can't kick mecha ass alongside the best men, like Haman Khan did. (I could name a lot of other skilled female pilots from a bunch of series, but Haman is one of the few universally recognized) And she's a popular character too.

Except she had good hand-to-hand combat skills which also made her very handy. But given the fact Toma had other plans, he trapped her. That's not shafting her but using her as bait for Apollo. If you haven't noticed, Kawamori loves to use that type of storyline. He did not shaft her, she became the key point of interest. By taking her out of the piloting gear, she began a point of interest. I say that brings her up a role.

Again, mecha action-wise she was totally shafted. You can come up with a lot of good reasons for why a lot of female characters were captured and turned into the damsel in distress, but that's still what they were turned into: the damsel in distress. This is one cliche that I would love to see shattered.
What would have been wrong with making Sylvia a key point of interest more similar to Apollo, as in a character who helps to win the fight instead of getting captured?
Just because Kawamori likes to use that type of storyline doesn't make it less cliche, and it definitely doesn't mean I have to like it. >.>

Since you don't watch Gundam I doubt you play the Super Robot Wars games (especially since they're JP games and only playable if you can play JP DVD games on your PS2), but SRW has tons of awesome females main/support characters, a major exception to the rule. (and very dang welcome) These females aren't used as simple tools for forwarding the final arc for the guys to take over. Then there's the awesomeness that are Soukou no Strain and Jinki, and of course Gunbuster. (though the Jinki anime wasn't nearly as good as the manga, because they had too much material to stuff into 12 episodes) You don't see girls being damsels in distress in those either.
But alas, as is my point again, if you're female in a mecha anime, 90%+ of the time you're not doing anything other than looking good at best. Which is why we'll most likely never see Mikono going into a steamrolling rampage of devastation against the Abductors to avenge Amata, as much as I'd like to see it and as awesome as it would be. Plus, as you pointed out as well, Kawamori likes to use the damsel in distress figure, so it's probaby even worse for Mikono.

Regardless, if you want to believe he shafted her and not see that he had another purpose for her in mind, that's your own opinion.

Similar to what I said above, you can have a character carry a big role in a mecha anime without shafting them out of mecha combat focus. But the rule of mecha anime is that mecha is a man's game, so....