[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[BrianlAFl]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Spoiler for higurashi:

1) Okonogi was a business partner of Hideyoshi, and Hideyoshi is an Ushiromiya only because he married Eva. There is no hint of any connection with Kinzo or the four siblings.

2) George says he's been working under Okonogi in the past. Which means at least 2-3 years before the event of the game. That means that around 1983 Okonogi was already an important manager. If he retired from being a mercenary that must have happened before 1983 which means there's a major difference in the natural timeline of Higurashi

Spoiler for Higurashi and Umineko:

Ah, must have missed that part about Hideyoshi. If I remember correctly, Miyo was on the case of Higurashi for at least 4 years. (Because of the cases of the murders that happened every year) I think that leaves enough time for him to get retired and join Hideyoshi's company.

Edit:

Spoiler for Extra:

OR! Here's a mind twister, what if Ushiromiya (or should i say Hideyoshi?) was one of those business partners who were the ones who made the corps?

Man this just has too much open space to move that I cant really make any concrete assumptions.

[Ithekro]

Well...Hideyoshi still needs a backstory.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Spoiler for higurashi:

1) Okonogi was a business partner of Hideyoshi, and Hideyoshi is an Ushiromiya only because he married Eva. There is no hint of any connection with Kinzo or the four siblings.

2) George says he's been working under Okonogi in the past. Which means at least 2-3 years before the event of the game. That means that around 1983 Okonogi was already an important manager. If he retired from being a mercenary that must have happened before 1983 which means there's a major difference in the natural timeline of Higurashi

Also, Okonogi probably has connections with Rudolf as well, since Kasumi mentions that they were in business too when she is introduced. Kyrie being a Sumadera, Okonogi was probably involved in Rudolf's company too through her.

[Yukkureimu]

Originally Posted by Chadauw

Spoiler for Condensation:

Kinda re-reading the visuals novels (currently into EP2), and they are some scenes that I find really strange...

1.
Genji and Nanjo wondering if Kinzo is well during a chess match (EP1 before the second twilight), when they are alone in the kitchen (with Kumasawa). I suppose those two know about Kinzo's death, I wonder why they brought up this subject while there is no one to fool.

2.
Jessica acting very strange before Battler takes a nap at the beginning of EP2. She's getting all worked up about "being the main character of your own life", and is really upset by Battler saying that it's not his turn yet... Hey, he just wants to take a nap. Plus she's refraining old memories? WTF? Could this have something to do with the sin?

3.
There is so many times when Kanon is weird in EP2 that I can't understand why I didn't realize it the first time I read it. He walks without making a sound, he suddenly appears out of nowhere, he talks with Shannon without anyone around noticing him, and disappears in an instant a second after... He seems like some kind of conscience or imaginary friend to Shannon. But still, I can't believe he does not actually exist because of the Jessica/Kanon backstory and every other times when he appears as a real character in front of Battler and the others.

Humpf.

For the first point, you have to realize that the omnipotent narrator is anything but reliable. You can trust that the details are getting are accurate, but you have to realize that things that occur outside of Battler's sober perception probably aren't occurring the way the narrator makes you think they're occurring.

For the second point, it seems to me to just be a metaphor to let Battler know that it's not his turn to move yet.

Shkannon could be a valid theory, or it could be a red herring. My bet's on red herring, but it could go either way, although shkannon would feel like a cop-out.

[Chadauw]

Jan-Poo, Yukkureimu >

1.
Well, I would be pretty stupid if I didn't know about the lying narrator at this point ^^'. The problem is that there is no "clue" that this could be a fake scene (magic, butterflies, people that shouldn't be here or be alive...), so the chances for this scene to be false are pretty low, or it would be kind of cheating... Or the talk is in fact a clue that the scene is false and that the persons supposed to be in this room are in fact doing something else (killing Eva and Hideyoshi)?

2.
Battler is not the problem here. The problem is Jessica, who gets angry for seemingly nothing and tries not to remember "old memories".

3.
Yes, I was aware of the Shkanon theory, but I didn't realize that there was so many odd things.

I'm doubting that Shannon really loves George these days... She said she kept working for the Ushiromiya family in order to get a "certain amount of money" in EP1, right?

[BrianlAFl]

Originally Posted by Chadauw

I'm doubting that Shannon really loves George these days... She said she kept working for the Ushiromiya family in order to get a "certain amount of money" in EP1, right?

I think she said that most servants at the Ushiromiya family stayed until they made a certain amount of money and then left, not that she was staying for that objective. If I recall correctly, she said she stayed for Kanons sake, though I'm not sure why he is staying.

[Jan-Poo]

You know I never noticed this, but she indeed somehow says so... but it is kinda contradictory

George: "......Err, ......um, you've already been working here about ten years, was it? You must have saved up a lot of money by now, right?"

Shannon: "I wonder... It's not like there's anything in particular I'd like to buy... I think about a few million yen, which isn't enough to live off of for the rest of my life..."

George: "Have you continued working to try and meet some target sum?"

Shannon: ".........Y, ...yes, that's right. ......I have nowhere to go outside of this mansion. ......I have been getting along well with Milady and the other servants' children, too... ......I am sometimes scolded by Madam, but, ......caring for the rose garden and cleaning the mansion is fun..."

She first says that she doesn't have anything in particular to buy, and then when George asks her if she's trying to get a larger sum she says yes. And after that she adds other reasons.

Imho... she's just trying to find an excuse to cover the real reason.

[Marion]

Remember guys, Shannon is only 16. Legal Age in Japan in the 80's was 20. Even if she DID leave where would she go? She couldn't use the money she made to buy up her own residence. Plus Kinzo gives her free food, free lodgings and all that stuff. Of course she has to work for the family, but I doubt it's that bad. Plus she's pretty friendly with Jessica and this way she can see George during the conference and other times still.

[Jan-Poo]

However it seems that she is the only fukuin servant that have been there for more than 3 years. Also it is hinted that she was under the care of an older servant, which explains why she was in that house when she was only 10 years old.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

However it seems that she is the only fukuin servant that have been there for more than 3 years. Also it is hinted that she was under the care of an older servant, which explains why she was in that house when she was only 10 years old.

Wait did she start working for the family at 6 and been there for 10 years?

[BrianlAFl]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

However it seems that she is the only fukuin servant that have been there for more than 3 years. Also it is hinted that she was under the care of an older servant, which explains why she was in that house when she was only 10 years old.

That is, of course, not counting Genji right? He's been there for probably as long as Kinzo.

Though, I never noticed her saying that either. I had thoroughly assumed it was simply her stuttering or something that made her say yes. Maybe she is hiding something.

[Chadauw]

Exactly. And that's part of why I'm pretty suspicious of her.

She seems to be trying to get money, was there six years ago. I always thought that there is something with the Fukuin house and the servant names... Plus, I don't know why, sometimes I find that her love for George is not really sincere.

On another note, how much George would do for her? And how persuasive could he be in order to make the family acknowledge her as his fiancée?

Edit :

That is, of course, not counting Genji right? He's been there for probably as long as Kinzo.

But Genji is an exception. He isn't from the Fukuin House.

Though, I never noticed her saying that either. I had thoroughly assumed it was simply her stuttering or something that made her say yes. Maybe she is hiding something.

Yeah, it's something that really hit me when I re-read EP1... I totally forgot about it.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Marion

Wait did she start working for the family at 6 and been there for 10 years?

My fault, it was a mistake. You are right she was six. However I wonder if she was really "working" there, or just be there because of her foster parent. There's been mention of other servants who had children on Rokkenjima.

Originally Posted by BrianlAFl

That is, of course, not counting Genji right? He's been there for probably as long as Kinzo.

Genji is not a Fukuin child. Kumasawa has also been working for at least 30 years.

Originally Posted by Chadauw

On another note, how much George would do for her? And how persuasive could he be in order to make the family acknowledge her as his fiancée?

If you trust Ep4, he could do everything.

[Kitsu]

If you trust Ep4, he could do everything.

He also said that in Ep 2

[Jan-Poo]

Shannon: "I am sorry George, I can't accept your ring...

George: ...

.......
...........................
...............................
I'M GONNA KILL YOU ALL!!!!


Too bad George has almost always an alibi, else I'd find it plausible.

[Christen]

Originally Posted by June 1983

I don't think that would work ... surely the servants would notice that their master keys weren't working because they were fakes. Don't they use them in the course of the story before handing them over to Rosa?

That's what I was also thinking, so I'm trying to find a hole in there.

We're basically thinking about the Siestas and their connection with Maria. Assuming that the Siesta's arrows can go through any keyhole in the mansion, and almost never miss their target, we've though it could be a personification of someone that holds a master key and kill with a rifle.

Or maybe the Siestas, in relation to Maria's rabbit figurines, are actually keys or keyholders. Remember in Episode 3 where Eva was in control of the Siestas after killing Rosa and Maria a short while ago.

[sora1412]

Originally Posted by BrianlAFl

I have seen a couple of discussions about how Higurashi and Umineko relate to each other, and I believe I have found the answer. Though this theory may have come up already, I wouldn't know since this thread is TL;DR.

Spoiler for All of Higurashi and Umineko 1-4 spoilers.:

First clue that led me to this revelation would be the conversation that Bern and Lambda had in one of the Tea Parties involving how Bern usurped Lambdas rank in a battle they had before, which I believe is the battle that Rika and Miyo had during the events of Higurashi. The second clue would be a scene in a side story (i think) of Higurashi in which Bern stopped Miyo from going to her friends house and made her go back home - this side story aired in the final episode of the Higurashi anime - which would stop the Higurashi incident from even happening because Miyo would never have become a scientist in the first place. I may be remembering this scene wrong since I haven't watched Higurashi in a while, but it should be fundamentally correct.

I think that if Higurashi's incident was a game between Bern and Lambda that this seems likely. Meaning that during Umineko, the Higurashi incident NEVER HAPPENED. An idea that supports this is Okonogi, who, if Higurashi never happened, could have been hired by the Ushiromiya family quite easily.

I think this is therefore the connection between the two games.

Thoughts? Ideas? Improvements?

Impossible I say. Remember EP1? Battler read a novel called "Higurashi No Naku Koro Ni" which he uses as a basis to deny the witch(well, at least for a brief moment).

Originally Posted by Christen

That's what I was also thinking, so I'm trying to find a hole in there.

We're basically thinking about the Siestas and their connection with Maria. Assuming that the Siesta's arrows can go through any keyhole in the mansion, and almost never miss their target, we've though it could be a personification of someone that holds a master key and kill with a rifle.

Or maybe the Siestas, in relation to Maria's rabbit figurines, are actually keys or keyholders. Remember in Episode 3 where Eva was in control of the Siestas after killing Rosa and Maria a short while ago.

Sounds plausible cause Maria's rabbits has been repeated for a lot of times since they were first mentioned. Does that mean our culprit is intimately close to out suspect?

[hodil]

Watching the anime episode on the Siesta and their firing animation, i almost feel like they are actually sniper rifles. Oh come on, just look at that lock on animation.

And the golden thread could be identified as the beam of projected light from the sniper to light up dark corners.

[Vega Lyra]

Originally Posted by hodil

Watching the anime episode on the Siesta and their firing animation, i almost feel like they are actually sniper rifles. Oh come on, just look at that lock on animation.

And the golden thread could be identified as the beam of projected light from the sniper to light up dark corners.

Which makes me think...

Leading from the comment on a 'gold thread' mentioned by Kyrie to Battler,

Why was Battler told over the phone in EP4 that it was all done by magic? Were the people(Kyrie/Jessica) on the other end convinced that it was magic, or did they know something crucial? If the latter, why is the magical explanation better? Of course, if somebody was being threatened it could explain why. However, Jessica seemed to believe she would die after the phone call...did she know what was going on, or was she a believer?

And what was up with the piece of paper Battler was given? (Yourself, your love or everybody else.)

[Jan-Poo]

It was a cheap trick for Beatrice to know if Battler was already in love with someone.
Clever girl...