(L) Nisekoi (Komi Naoshi - Double Arts)

[tntsgoboom]

Originally Posted by larethian

I agree with Dorsai here. While you can form uninformed impressions based on other people's comments, you can't really form accurate and informed opinions, subjective as they may be, without first hand experience. Incidentally, I'm one of those who don't like this harem adding plot device

I totally agree with you. If you read what I said before I literally said "It just comes down to whether you decide to confirm that original opinion 100%" Hence why I also said I would and am currently reading the whole thing LOL.

[Irenicus]

Originally Posted by tntsgoboom

I'm not trolling. I came here to ask a question and was immediately attacked. Read all the comments before you say shit like that.

I have. I was actually mostly confused by the posts in this last page, went back to check what's up and...yeah, it's you, brah.

But let me put on my serious cap for a second.

See, what you're doing is complaining about a manga that you didn't read. Now, that in itself isn't particularly special, though generally speaking people tend to accompany that with some excusable mitigating factors. Your mistakes are:

1) Admitting that you've never read Nisekoi.

2) Complaining about Nisekoi in a thread about the work, where the fans who actually have read the thing, we assume, congregate.

3) Tried to deflect when people challenged your opinion by saying that you are entitled to your opinion. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, more or less. However, you are not entitled to have it go unchallenged. Among the greatest "I lost this internet argument" flags you could draw.

4) [For pros only] Not embellishing your complaint; for example, by contextualizing it in terms of general dislike of the genre, or even issues with the greater cultural landscape. This is the path of professional cultural critics. That new Nymphomaniac movie every critic seem to suddenly adore? I have an opinion on it, a strong, convincing negative opinion, and I can express it very eloquently with condemnations of indulgence, dishonesty, and the failure of the postmodern artist. I never watched it, of course.

It isn't a mistake to have an opinion on things you don't really have a "right" to have an opinion on. The human brain is the greatest shortcut machine ever, and so people do that all the time for good or ill ("prejudice"). I do that all the time myself; I know when I'll hate a work of entertainment and never to touch it, ever. I know because I formed impressions from people's opinions -- a not always straightforward "review" process, either; positive reactions can be interpreted negatively -- from first impressions, from past experience, and so on. What I don't do is go around poking people saying I think their kink is LOLfail without, at least, the bravado of pretending I am completely justified to feel so.

Given the obvious annoyance your position will provoke, I naturally assumed you were fishing for negative reactions, even if unconsciously or unintentionally. If you were actually looking for assent and praise to affirm your opinion, this is the wrong place to do so.

/serious cap off

[tntsgoboom]

Originally Posted by SigUp

You were only attacked after you said this


You can't really complain when you've been the one that started to throw around expletives.

Hmm it seems to be that were either having a core misunderstanding of that comment. Or a few people took that WAYYY out of proportion. My immediate and honest thought when I read that, "nothing much has happened in two years" was, "damn, this shit (shit being the manga, not that it is shit (-_-)) is crazy". So TO ME the fact that nothing much has happened in the manga in two years, according to others AGAIN to me was crazy.

That is not me bashing the manga, that is not me bashing anyone else. It was simply an immediate first though that came to my head. Followed by me posting that thought. Followed by a whole lot of none sense that came from me having one simple question about the manga. Because for some reason some individuals have an issue with a person asking a question receiving an answer and then forming an opinion( if you can even call it that, more of a comment out of DISBELIEF) on the matter based on that answer.

[tntsgoboom]

Originally Posted by Irenicus

I have. I was actually mostly confused by the posts in this last page, went back to check what's up and...yeah, it's you, brah.

But let me put on my serious cap for a second.

See, what you're doing is complaining about a manga that you didn't read. Now, that in itself isn't particularly special, though generally speaking people tend to accompany that with some excusable mitigating factors. Your mistakes are:

1) Admitting that you've never read Nisekoi.

2) Complaining about Nisekoi in a thread about the work, where the fans who actually have read the thing, we assume, congregate.

3) Tried to deflect when people challenged your opinion by saying that you are entitled to your opinion. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, more or less. However, you are not entitled to have it go unchallenged. Among the greatest "I lost this internet argument" flags you could draw.

4) [For pros only] Not embellishing your complaint; for example, by contextualizing it in terms of general dislike of the genre, or even issues with the greater cultural landscape. This is the path of professional cultural critics. That new Nymphomaniac movie every critic seem to suddenly adore? I have an opinion on it, a strong, convincing negative opinion, and I can express it very eloquently with condemnations of indulgence, dishonesty, and the failure of the postmodern artist. I never watched it, of course.

It isn't a mistake to have an opinion on things you don't really have a "right" to have an opinion on. The human brain is the greatest shortcut machine ever, and so people do that all the time for good or ill ("prejudice"). I do that all the time myself; I know when I'll hate a work of entertainment and never to touch it, ever. I know because I formed impressions from people's opinions -- a not always straightforward "review" process, either; positive reactions can be interpreted negatively -- from first impressions, from past experience, and so on. What I don't do is go around poking people saying I think their kink is LOLfail without, at least, the bravado of pretending I am completely justified to feel so.

Given the obvious annoyance your position will provoke, I naturally assumed you were fishing for negative reactions, even if unconsciously or unintentionally. If you were actually looking for assent and praise to affirm your opinion, this is the wrong place to do so.

/serious cap off

I am going to actually take the time to reply to this

First let me take out the back of my right hand

See what your doing is trying to chime in on some posts that you had nothing to do with. "Now, that in itself isn't particularly special, though generally speaking people tend to accompany that with some excusable mitigating factors." >.> See what I did there. Also did you know that an opinion if we want to be technical does not necessarily have to be based on fact or knowledge.

First read the above post. Now let's make a list of your mistakes shall we. Since you come off as a douche =)

1. Picking and choosing pieces of this thread instead of fulling reading everything(that's how you come across).

2. Misinterpreting what I originally said. Let me elaborate. Saying this is crazy. Here I am not complaining, nor am I bashing the manga. It was simply the impression I got from the comments. It had nothing to do with anyone here nor directly the manga.

3. Saying I was deflecting. I have no idea where you got that from. Honestly now I think your an idiot. I went out of my way to answer the questions that were posed to me(ex. Why bother reading it then?) I also took the time to explain myself in all area's. Thirdly don't forget that I was the one that was attacked not the other way around. It all started with this comment, directed towards me," You seem to be quick to form an opinion based on what a few people write. Nicely done good sir, you're the epitome of the internet masses." Also I said I was entitled to my opinion, yes. Someone questioned my opinion and after I explained myself, I finished with saying that I am entitled to that. Again you pick and choose. Sad.

4. I openly stated "you seem to enjoy this series which is great", I am not bashing anyone for liking the series -__-. Again I think your an idiot. (See here I'm actually bashing you since I've had enough of ya XD

5. You seem to have missed the part where I said I am currently reading the whole series. "Hey, let's just pick and choose not address the issue as a whole." Is that how you deal with all things you confront? Pick and choose?

6. [For pros only] Man this list keeps going??? Quoting this piece, "Given the obvious annoyance your position will provoke". How in the world does anyone find a statement such as, "this shit is crazy LOL" to be an annoyance. I am not bashing the manga. It was the IDEA that two years have gone by and nothing much has happened that was crazy to me. I'm not saying the manga is bad people. Jesus.

7. I'm going to be informal here Get your SHIT together. Because honestly, you come across as though your pants are on too tight. Oh nah, he did not say that to this jimmy.

Do everyone here a favor and don't reply to this. I simply came here to ask a question received an answer, couldn't believe the answer and said it on a post. This whole thing can be equated to this, your speaking to a friend. He tell's you something you can't believe and you say, "YOUR SHITTING ME". Your not bashing your friend there, your not bashing what he said. You just COULDN'T BELIEVE WHAT YOU HEARD.

As a side note, I laughed so hard when you wrote "I lost this internet argument flags you could draw." You realize what people (and yourself) are arguing with me over is my opinion (however small the opinion was, it was barely one to begin with, Frankly it was more of a comment). No one can win this type of argument. You cannot win an argument with me over the opinion/comment that I solely had. I never asked your opinion on the manga.

** You seem to have this idea that I have some strong view point. That I think this manga is bad or that I'm right and your all wrong. Not at all I just couldn't believe what I heard and I had a comment following my disbelief of the answer I received.

Does that clear things up for you Mr. Pick and Choose? Oh, wait I forgot I said not to reply to this.

/Hand put back down

[Kakurin]

Originally Posted by tntsgoboom

That is not me bashing the manga, that is not me bashing anyone else.

Let me explain, independent of what your intentions were. The four letter s word is a derogatory value judgement. Likewise the word crazy also bears a negative connotation. As such it is not surprising that people see your post as "bashing" or offensive. If you wanted to avoid coming across as complaining or bashing you simply could have chosen a neutral expression and we wouldn't be discussing this matter at all.

[tntsgoboom]

Originally Posted by SigUp

Let me explain, independent of what your intentions were. The four letter s word is a derogatory value judgement. Likewise the word crazy also bears a negative connotation. As such it is not surprising that people see your post as "bashing" or offensive. If you wanted to avoid coming across as complaining or bashing you simply could have chosen a neutral expression and we wouldn't be discussing this matter at all.

That is a good point. I should have taken into account the not everyone on here would actually understand that what was said is not actually bashing. It is all context. Just because something may usually be used in a derogatory manner, does not mean that in every instance it is derogatory? Would you agree? (Though again I should have considered what you said previously). I find being formal boring to be honest hence my preference for being informal. I am used to referring to things with terms that you may find derogatory. This is probably because I don't hold much value on the word itself("curse words" hah). I find that people take things too seriously.

If you happen to see me around here and I use the word shit in place of an object/thing etc bare in mind that it does not actually mean that thing is shit. I just chose that word, it has no significant meaning behind it. I also won't be conforming to any sort of standard word choice. It's all semantics.



Let's just get back to what this sub-forum is actually meant for.

[nosaer]

Ruri's grandpa arc was the best one since chitoge's mom came home for christmas...still there is no actual plot progression and I'll probably go back to skipping BS chapters again soon. I guess onodera's sister at the festival/aquarium was ok too...But I don't see what this being in jump has to do with anything. it has nothing in common with naruto other than the fact that its in jump. Naruto is actually still interesting, and things actually happen to progress the story regularly. In this manga, we are treated to bs slice of life type of random events that get put on repeat every week.

[SkoolRumble4Ya]

You are comparing two completely different genre. It's a harem why are you expecting plot to be moving forward. Besides Naruto is boring.

[Ginko08]

Originally Posted by ultimate_noob

Come on, dude. This manga is on JUMP. Look at Naruto, Gintama, Kuroko's Basket, One Piece plots.

I'm fine with what you're saying about Naruto, Kuroko and One Piece, I'm not fond of them, but don't insult Gintama by comparing it to Nisekoi. Gintama is a masterpiece of Comedy, there is not always an overarching plot, but even the episodic stuff is already on a different level than what Nisekoi offers.
Also, the serious arcs never take too long, every episode progresses the plot a lot, and usually those arcs are already finished after a few chapters/ episodes.

Originally Posted by SkoolRumble4Ya

You are comparing two completely different genre. It's a harem why are you expecting plot to be moving forward. Besides Naruto is boring.

Because being a harem is no excuse for the lack of proper plot. There are some genuinely good harems out there, which maybe aren't dark or all to serious, but at least don't waste the reader's time week after week.
As to Naruto, it was kinda good at first, but went downhill in the later arcs.

Oh, and before anyone asks, yes, I've read Nisekoi. I liked the first 40 or so chapters, but since then I gradually lost interest in it. I'm only reading it for the occasional meaningful chapter and because I hope that the author might actually stop milking this series and go back to his roots.

[Waven]

^
This thread and the fact that Nisekoi is still running (in WSJ) make me think there is quite a number of people actually enjoying all the non-progression chapters. I also can't help but believe this satisfaction with the series is indeed based on experience with the genre, which properly adjusts one's expectations.


If you really think this series is truly wasting your time you should've stopped reading long time ago. I'm frequently astonished at how certain mangas seem to cause Stockholm syndrome in some people.

[tntsgoboom]

Originally Posted by Waven

^
This thread and the fact that Nisekoi is still running (in WSJ) make me think there is quite a number of people actually enjoying all the non-progression chapters. I also can't help but believe this satisfaction with the series is indeed based on experience with the genre, which properly adjusts one's expectations.


If you really think this series is truly wasting your time you should've stopped reading long time ago. I'm frequently astonished at how certain mangas seem to cause Stockholm syndrome in some people.

I'm currently reading the series and I believe it to be alright. In response to you saying "I'm frequently astonished at how certain mangas seem to cause Stockholm syndrome in some people". Personally even if I start a series and I don't enjoy it. I still finish it. I never drop it. You've got to finish what you start.

[Ginko08]

Originally Posted by Waven

^
This thread and the fact that Nisekoi is still running (in WSJ) make me think there is quite a number of people actually enjoying all the non-progression chapters. I also can't help but believe this satisfaction with the series is indeed based on experience with the genre, which properly adjusts one's expectations.


If you really think this series is truly wasting your time you should've stopped reading long time ago. I'm frequently astonished at how certain mangas seem to cause Stockholm syndrome in some people.

I don't know about others, but as stated I rarely enjoy a chapter of this anymore, once every 10 chapters maybe. Satisfaction is not based on experience with the genre, only on tastes. I've read and watched many Romcoms, and while I liked a bunch of them, Nisekoi just doesn't cut it anymore.
Oh, stop with that already. How am I supposed to know whether I like a series or not without reading it? Many mangas I didn't like at first ended up being good, and I still have hopes for this one. Besides, I don't want to be the guy who doesn't know what he's talking about, without reading it my opinion would be invalid.
Besides, I never dropped anything, never, and I don't plan to. Once I've started something, I need to know how it ends, interpret it however you want for all I care.
One of the later arcs which I enjoyed would be the amnesia one, which started out incredibly cliche, but revealed more information on the pendant and the story, and featured a lot of cute Chitoge moments as well.

[Dorsai]

Some good harems which dont waste readers time? Write me name of at least one with 100+ chapters who focus on story and relationship development only... Just one is enough... That genre not work this way, because if they would focus on romance only and move only stright forward all harems would end after like 10 chapters... I dont understand why even people bother to read this kind of manga when they clearly dont like how harems works....

And ofc author extend manga, because its more money for him, he is doing it for living... But thanx to it in this "fillers" chapters a lot of characters develop greatly... Shuu, Ruri, Haru, Tachibana, Paula, Tsugumi, they all developed in last few arcs and we got chance to know them better... If sb like harem manga where only main guy and one or two girls got development and rest of cast are 2d static archetypes then good for him... But i like when in story like this few good chapters which seems to be about nothing important, sudenly give life to one of characters and make me believe that its not just mix of typical manga tropes, but living human...

[ImperialFlameGod8190]

Originally Posted by Dorsai

Some good harems which dont waste readers time? Write me name of at least one with 100+ chapters who focus on story and relationship development only... Just one is enough... That genre not work this way, because if they would focus on romance only and move only stright forward all harems would end after like 10 chapters... I dont understand why even people bother to read this kind of manga when they clearly dont like how harems works....

And ofc author extend manga, because its more money for him, he is doing it for living... But thanx to it in this "fillers" chapters a lot of characters develop greatly... Shuu, Ruri, Haru, Tachibana, Paula, Tsugumi, they all developed in last few arcs and we got chance to know them better... If sb like harem manga where only main guy and one or two girls got development and rest of cast are 2d static archetypes then good for him... But i like when in story like this few good chapters which seems to be about nothing important, sudenly give life to one of characters and make me believe that its not just mix of typical manga tropes, but living human...

Id agree with the filler chapters argument except for two problems.
1. Most of the characters you mentioned haven't changed since their introduction
Shuu- Has been a troll the entire time and I would argue that the whole thing with the teacher wasn't much of a development IMO.
Ruri- Much the same she's been onodera's right hand women the whole time and that hasn't changed because even during the fake bf thing the whole time she was thinking about dera.
Haru- The problem with haru is that she really doesn't have a defined role. First she was lil sis who wanted to protect her one-chan now she's just lost in the harem.
Paula- Doesn't really do anything other than cameo with haru and besides her desire to gain approval from tsugumi she hasn't done anything really.
Tsugumi- After she was revealed as a she there isn't much to her. She likes Raku because he treats her like a girl and doesn't want to mess with the relationship she believes chitoge and raku has.
Marika- Raku crazy girl who just seems to care for raku and be blind in that pursuit.
2. The only development for the most part is based on the fact u actually learn they have lives outside of trolling raku (shuu) Trying to give onodera a push in the back (Ruri). Paula (trying to gain tsugumi's approval by various actions)

[Ginko08]

Originally Posted by Dorsai

Some good harems which dont waste readers time? Write me name of at least one with 100+ chapters who focus on story and relationship development only... Just one is enough... That genre not work this way, because if they would focus on romance only and move only stright forward all harems would end after like 10 chapters... I dont understand why even people bother to read this kind of manga when they clearly dont like how harems works....

And ofc author extend manga, because its more money for him, he is doing it for living... But thanx to it in this "fillers" chapters a lot of characters develop greatly... Shuu, Ruri, Haru, Tachibana, Paula, Tsugumi, they all developed in last few arcs and we got chance to know them better... If sb like harem manga where only main guy and one or two girls got development and rest of cast are 2d static archetypes then good for him... But i like when in story like this few good chapters which seems to be about nothing important, sudenly give life to one of characters and make me believe that its not just mix of typical manga tropes, but living human...

Sora no Otoshimono doesn't have 100 chapters, but it achieved something by having plot and developed relationships despite being a harem.
The best example would be TWGOK, which has well ver 260 chapters and is still good, at both romance and plot.
Or the novel High School DxD, or Oda Nobuna no Yabou, hell, To Love Ru had more meaningful chapters than this.
And if you claim those invalid because supernatural, then I can tell you one more romcom novel: Yahari Ore no Seishun, a series in which character interactions are everything. And they are amazing, to say the least.
No, they wouldn't end after 10 chapters, as long as developments stay subtle or the author can think of a good plotline, it can easily go on for more than 100 chapters.
Props for you assuming that I don't like harem, I'm not a lover of them, but I can like them as well, as long as they at least try to achieve something.
And that is an excuse for the lack of plot? Really now? I am aware that he needs his money, but if all he delivers are filler chapters, then I have every right to bash him for it. He could also earn his money while writing a good story, but he seemingly chose the easy way, where he doesn't actually put effort into his work.
Soo, the characters in Nisekoi are not archetypes? Lol.
I didn't notice much of the 'developments', to me they seem as static as always, but oh well.
Now, if you disagree with anything I said, good for you. I'm not saying everyone should hate Nisekoi, all I did was explain why I myself don't like Nisekoi, and why I am still reading it despite that. I won't stop you from liking the plot and the characters. I just don't get why the most frequent answer to criticism ends up being "don't like, don't read", a braindead internet slang.

Originally Posted by ImperialFlameGod8190

Id agree with the filler chapters argument except for two problems.
1. Most of the characters you mentioned haven't changed since their introduction
Shuu- Has been a troll the entire time and I would argue that the whole thing with the teacher wasn't much of a development IMO.
Ruri- Much the same she's been onodera's right hand women the whole time and that hasn't changed because even during the fake bf thing the whole time she was thinking about dera.
Haru- The problem with haru is that she really doesn't have a defined role. First she was lil sis who wanted to protect her one-chan now she's just lost in the harem.
Paula- Doesn't really do anything other than cameo with haru and besides her desire to gain approval from tsugumi she hasn't done anything really.
Tsugumi- After she was revealed as a she there isn't much to her. She likes Raku because he treats her like a girl and doesn't want to mess with the relationship she believes chitoge and raku has.
Marika- Raku crazy girl who just seems to care for raku and be blind in that pursuit.
2. The only development for the most part is based on the fact u actually learn they have lives outside of trolling raku (shuu) Trying to give onodera a push in the back (Ruri). Paula (trying to gain tsugumi's approval by various actions)

At least Shuu was sorta likeable at first, by now his attitude is bothering me...
As to the other characters, Marika must be one of the only characters I still somewhat appreciate, Tsugumi became shitty as well after ending up in Raku's harem, and the other three never had anything relevant to contribute to begin with. I still don't know why Haru even exists.

[ImperialFlameGod8190]

Originally Posted by Ginko08

Sora no Otoshimono doesn't have 100 chapters, but it achieved something by having plot and developed relationships despite being a harem.

At least Shuu was sorta likeable at first, by now his attitude is bothering me...
As to the other characters, Marika must be one of the only characters I still somewhat appreciate, Tsugumi became shitty as well after ending up in Raku's harem, and the other three never had anything relevant to contribute to begin with. I still don't know why Haru even exists.

I would disagree with SnO because of the fact that much like this one most of the girls don't develop they just change the relationship with the MC. TWGOK is actually 100 times worse because its just a crappy gal game. The fact is most of development in TWGOK happens during the captures and its not really even development. You wanna talk about tropes Nisekoi is bad but TWGOK is worse its practically a cliché after cliché to be frank although it was a nice twist Chihiro actually liking keima is not surprising.

Shuu is pretty much a troll and that's it there's not much good about him otherwise.
You agree with me about the others and lets face it Haru is just like pretty much all the harem girls in this show with the exception of Marika. They like the MC but they wont do anything to really increase the relationship or separate themselves from the others girls.
I've always called this TLR light but that's something that they both share the story is in a relationship stall pretty much until they write a twist that eliminates one or two girls or the MC has the stones to confess to his true love. In the case of nisekoi its that key which must be used somehow in TLR's case its doing something to convince Rito to agree to the harem plan.

[Ginko08]

Originally Posted by ImperialFlameGod8190

I would disagree with SnO because of the fact that much like this one most of the girls don't develop they just change the relationship with the MC. TWGOK is actually 100 times worse because its just a crappy gal game. The fact is most of development in TWGOK happens during the captures and its not really even development. You wanna talk about tropes Nisekoi is bad but TWGOK is worse its practically a cliché after cliché to be frank although it was a nice twist Chihiro actually liking keima is not surprising.

Shuu is pretty much a troll and that's it there's not much good about him otherwise.
You agree with me about the others and lets face it Haru is just like pretty much all the harem girls in this show with the exception of Marika. They like the MC but they wont do anything to really increase the relationship or separate themselves from the others girls.
I've always called this TLR light but that's something that they both share the story is in a relationship stall pretty much until they write a twist that eliminates one or two girls or the MC has the stones to confess to his true love. In the case of nisekoi its that key which must be used somehow in TLR's case its doing something to convince Rito to agree to the harem plan.

The development of the girls in SnO was pretty weak at first, but even then they growed from interacting with Tomik, in the sense that they learned the meaning of a normal and happy life, while falling in love with him, they outgrew some of their old Angeloid habits. Especially in the end then did the girls grow, and try to sacrifice themselves in order to save the world. Given, it is cliché , but the execution was heartwarming, especially the scene where Astraea interacted with Chaos in order to not let her be alone, she basically wanted to share everyhing she had learned from Tomoki with her.
That's where we differ then. I see TWGOK as one of the best harem series, as the MC is actually refreshing, you may call him a nerd or whatever, but you can' deny the fact that he is vastly different to normal harem leads.
Yes, the relationship between Keima and a girl is mostly nullified after the corresponding capture, not always though. However, that is the entire point of it, Keima doesn't see any point in building himself a harem, all he wants is to stop the madness going on and return to his gaming.
I don't see how the captures are 'cliché after cliché ', the girls don't fall in love with Keima out of the blue, he always has a plan prepared for each girl, and captures her by selecting the best route. As to the girls themselves, they do develop quite nicely, in a short amount of time.
Shiori, who gained confidence to speak, Kanon, who got her motivation back, Chihiro, a seemingly normal girl which turned out to have more depth to her than expected, Kusonoki who accepted her girly side, her reunion with her sister etc.
All of those developments were caused by Keima, but don't have anything to do with their love relationships themselves, they remain intact even after the captures.
So no, TWGOK is far less cliché than Nisekoi, and one of the better harems out there. I see it as a slightly better version of DaL, which is in many regards similar to it.
Regarding the characters, yes, I was adding to your point, I mostly share your opinion about them. Problem with Haru is, she doesn't even have a point in the story. The others have at least an excuse for being there.
To Love Ru darkness at least has a proper main girl, Momo trying to fulfill the harem plan is far more enjoyable than most of the chapters of Nisekoi. Not saying TLR is good, imo it is average.

[Starshipw]

Originally Posted by Dorsai

Some good harems which dont waste readers time? Write me name of at least one with 100+ chapters who focus on story and relationship development only... Just one is enough... That genre not work this way, because if they would focus on romance only and move only stright forward all harems would end after like 10 chapters... I dont understand why even people bother to read this kind of manga when they clearly dont like how harems works....

Umi no Misaki - All three girls make progress in a natural way. The rivalry is stated up front and even rules are set down for equal time with the MC. The first girl is the favorite, but not by so much as to discourage fans of the others. There are mysteries so that the reader cannot be sure if it is a romcom or a tragedy. Even when the obligatory filler idol rival is introduced it moves both the plot and relationships along. The only weak spot is that after the climax it ends rather abruptly without completely answering all the leftover questions.

[Ginko08]

Originally Posted by Starshipw

Umi no Misaki - All three girls make progress in a natural way. The rivalry is stated up front and even rules are set down for equal time with the MC. The first girl is the favorite, but not by so much as to discourage fans of the others. There are mysteries so that the reader cannot be sure if it is a romcom or a tragedy. Even when the obligatory filler idol rival is introduced it moves both the plot and relationships along. The only weak spot is that after the climax it ends rather abruptly without completely answering all the leftover questions.

Hmm, this one sounds rather interesting, thanks for mentioning it. Might check it out sometime.

[ImperialFlameGod8190]

Originally Posted by Ginko08

The development of the girls in SnO was pretty weak at first, but even then they growed from interacting with Tomik, in the sense that they learned the meaning of a normal and happy life, while falling in love with him, they outgrew some of their old Angeloid habits. Especially in the end then did the girls grow, and try to sacrifice themselves in order to save the world. Given, it is cliché , but the execution was heartwarming, especially the scene where Astraea interacted with Chaos in order to not let her be alone, she basically wanted to share everyhing she had learned from Tomoki with her.
That's where we differ then. I see TWGOK as one of the best harem series, as the MC is actually refreshing, you may call him a nerd or whatever, but you can' deny the fact that he is vastly different to normal harem leads.
Yes, the relationship between Keima and a girl is mostly nullified after the corresponding capture, not always though. However, that is the entire point of it, Keima doesn't see any point in building himself a harem, all he wants is to stop the madness going on and return to his gaming.
I don't see how the captures are 'cliché after cliché ', the girls don't fall in love with Keima out of the blue, he always has a plan prepared for each girl, and captures her by selecting the best route. As to the girls themselves, they do develop quite nicely, in a short amount of time.
Shiori, who gained confidence to speak, Kanon, who got her motivation back, Chihiro, a seemingly normal girl which turned out to have more depth to her than expected, Kusonoki who accepted her girly side, her reunion with her sister etc.
All of those developments were caused by Keima, but don't have anything to do with their love relationships themselves, they remain intact even after the captures.
So no, TWGOK is far less cliché than Nisekoi, and one of the better harems out there. I see it as a slightly better version of DaL, which is in many regards similar to it.
Regarding the characters, yes, I was adding to your point, I mostly share your opinion about them. Problem with Haru is, she doesn't even have a point in the story. The others have at least an excuse for being there.
To Love Ru darkness at least has a proper main girl, Momo trying to fulfill the harem plan is far more enjoyable than most of the chapters of Nisekoi. Not saying TLR is good, imo it is average.

Its not the capture's themselves that are cliché its the girls. Each of the girls represents a very boring cliché with a twist.
Umi no Misaki is one of the rare proper harems there are the ending is absolutely pitiful but its decent otherwise