Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha Character Creation and Discussion

[Saint X]

Originally Posted by Aaron008R

Which makes me glad YOU did NOT participate in that particular operation!

Andrei: I'm GDI, i'm not supposed to interfere in the affairs of the TSAB... and besides, we've been chasing The Swarm again...

Originally Posted by Aaron008R

Sounds like a Hikki indeed.

Maybe on sounds like, but is not HAXX-like.

*Runs*

Originally Posted by Kha

My sentiments as above, if we really are gonna lose our most favorite Librarians since the Orang Utan and Yuuno.

Well for me, it's that pocket dimensions don't always have to stay alone. They can be linked via wormholes to other pockets. This was a premise that I'm working with to link the Infinite Library to the Library Island. That's why we see Chao as one of the most prominent non-combat member of the Nanohaverse's Celestial Being, instead of her lookalike from 2342.

I Also have Dr. Lingshen in TSAB you know... one and same?

Originally Posted by Kha

If I may suggest:

~~~~~~

The accidental discovery of the first section of what would become called the Infinite Libray began the wave of reconstruction after the tumultous post-Belka Imperiallum years as scientists and magiengineers alike plumbed its vast depths for innovation and knowledge.

As time passed, and GDI gave way to TSAB, a scholastic settlement grew slowly around the portal into this pocket dimension. And as more time passed, that outpost grew and was upgraded and designated as the Main HQ in MC 0000.

That single coiled tube was huge, as almost the size of a planet, but recently, wormholes have been discovered linking that inverted planetoid to other like structures. It was then theorized that the complete structure of the Infinite Library was that of a bunch of grapes, of several pockets linked together via shield-stabilized portions of the Warp transcending voidspace. As such, the 37th and their link became tasked to seek out and map all of the new grapes.

However, as once-sealed wormholes were opened and more knowledge gained, a old sentinel began to stir. Can the 37th contain the worms from the can they've just opened?

~~~~~~

How's that? I was thinking the Library Island was one such grape, and even it was infested with its share of dungeon creeps. The Elders could've sealed themselves in another part of the Library, or even have existed on a spectrum beyond the sense of humans, and have been watching the TSAB's every move.

There's still a literary way forward, I'm sure of it! Don't give up! Remember what we always say:

"Believe in us, who believe in you!"

I hope this has helped somewhat.

Noted...

Originally Posted by Kha

Traps are allowed though.

In case you didn't get what I earlier meant, the Drake Squad has been confirmed, all we've got left is Drake 4 to be filled. The classified ad would look something like:

"Riot 6 is looking for a Midchilda practitioner specializing in melee. Females (natural or trap) are preferred."

I'm serious about that last part. Both points of it.

Bridget has no Squad assigned to her yet... and you're just looking for a Mid-Type user anyway, not anything non-descript, Like Dei.

*goes back to DLing CLANNAD*

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Amy and Arf are childhood friends (of which Arf just so happens to be Fate's familiar, and Lindy Fate's mother therefore the two of them should be very close to Nanoha), Lindy is somewhat of a guardian who guided her through the TSAB routines and Yuuno... do I even have to comment on this? Yuuno is as close as Fate where influence is concerned.

Point in case, all four of them have heavy influence on Nanoha.

As turmoil put it, it's whether she allows them to influence her or not. But thanks on clearing up the relational paths.

And where did you get the 'it was hard for the three of them to meet up regularely four years ago'? They were in highschool together. Classmates, even. The manga was refering to the entire crew, as in Nanoha, Fate, Hayate, Arf, Amy, Lindy, Chrono, Yuuno, Vita, Signum, Zafira, and Shamal. That is a somewhat harder meeting to organize. Heck, Nanoha even greets Yuuno with the notion that the hadn't seen eachother for 3 days, which suggests they meet up even more normally.

*smacks self* Ah, a misunderstanding. *sighs*

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

1) Is that with average officers, who are happy a promotion comes to them at all?
2) Nanoha is particularly non-career seeking - no one that seriously cares about fast promotion goes for instructing in combat arms when there is real combat and real incidents to make your star in. Nanoha no doubt had stellar OERs, but what causes her promotion opportunity? Joining RF6 and fighting real enemies.
3) Something that is your own choice is not exactly a prime candidate for being a depressive source.

With regards to promotions, the British and American standards are, if you're really good, you get a shot an a promotion above the grade - early promotion. If you refuse that promotion, you then have to wait a fairly decent amount of time for the next promotion (promotions are based on ability + time in grade). Also, with the US system, if you're either passed over for promotion or reject promotion 3 times, you're retired. Simple as that - 3 strikes and out. In businesses, if you turn down a promotion, someone else gets it.

The point that is being made is that if offered a promotion early on the higher authority's terms, take it; if you snub it, the higher authority snubs you.

The way you describe it, it seems that you actually agree with Tk3997. Your symptoms didn't come out of the blue. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you probably had been getting increasingly bad tempered for some time before your final explosion that caused you to be aware what is really happening. It is clear that your defense mechanisms have been failing you for some time.

Yes. And that's what Kagerou is doing. For god's sake, MSLN Alpha takes place in MC0083, eight fucking years after StrikerS. That's more than enough time for a gradual shift.

If Nanoha attempted to kill Fate several times, then you might have a point, but there is no evidence of this.

...the point I was trying to make is that outward appearances do not tell the whole story.

OK, and what's burning her out? She has a cute daughter, work she loves, friends - even if her promotion prospects are frozen she's darn near in heaven.

Job stress, office politics, overdoing it and throwing herself too much into her work - take your pick. Those are the most common causes of burnout (that I'm aware of).

It is potentially traumatic, but Nanoha is clearly perfectly lucid. Only a crazy person can watch that anime and conclude that Nanoha suffered permanent psychological damage from the experience. No flashbacks, no nothing.

The closest thing to a traumatic experience Nanoha ever had (as far as visible effect) is when Vivio got kidnapped. Even that seemed to have no apparent long-term effect. Not a single flashback nightmare.

I was saying it is possible. You have all the little things add up, and then one day the dam breaks - that's what Kagerou's aiming for (as far as I know).

Precisely, there are long precursors, of which Nanoha has none apparent.

As of the StrikerS epilogue. This is eight years after StrikerS. There's plenty of storytelling time to setup the situation.

I'm not sure what TK proposed 100 pages ago, but Nanoha's job is indeed an Aggressor. That AF as a whole is a SWAT unit is something else.

I know her job is an agressor. I'm just saying it's slightly amusing to my warped sense of humor to see a full on Air Force analogy after all the trouble TK went through...

Here's my recommendation for what its worth. Forget the 28 year buildup. Sure, almost anything is possible psychologically but the indicators are weak enough that the setup lacks plausibility - it is justified right now more by "Anything can happen, benefit of the doubt" than a believable scenario.

Use the incident itself as the source. If buildup must be involved, I suppose the only obviously gray cloud on Nanoha's horizon as of StrikerS is her poor overworked linker core. Perhaps its declining output caused the failure? Maybe Nanoha is under increasing fear of being unable to fly (perhaps her one fear that we know of?)

*shrug* It's up in the air. I'm just the sounding board, Kagerou is the writer. If it were me, Nanoha wouldn't be having angst. On the other hand, Job's story was pretty much pointless crap heaped on him (from his point of view), yet there are valuable lessons on pain and suffering in the book of Job.

Af for 28 years, I messed up the math. It's 27. Nanoha would be 27 in MC0083; 27 years of experiences and bitter feelings, resentments, anger, all compartmentalised and repressed. At least, that's my interpretation.

TK is not dictating, and neither am I. Nevertheless, I'm sure TK joins me in being mildly distressed at this setup.

Psychology is not physics - it is so uncertain that it is often called a "soft science". Thus it is always possible to find a fringe or individualistic scenario to support one's point. That's not the same as a scenario being plausible.

Some characters, like Fate and Hayate, are angst characters. Nanoha is frankly not one of them - which makes it particularly hard to write even a demi-plausible angst sequence. There is also a matter of necessity.

It's funny you were saying that, because TK was saying that it's impossible for someone to be depressed by repressing their resentments and feelings and that was how I ended up a nervous wreck. :P And theoretically, any charecter can be used to angst. For example, there are points in the Halo novels when Master Chief meanders almost towards angst, but he's so emotionally stunted so as to be incapable of angsting. Kurt does angst slightly (though he admittedly gets up and keeps on moving forward).

As for necessity and stuff... goddamnit, I'm not the writer. Kagerou is. Again, if it were up to me, there would be no angst. However, he's writing angst, I'm his sounding board and wingman, and therefore I need to display wingman cohesian and support this point of view because it's his artistic interpretation of how he wants to go.

And listen to stormturmoil. The man's a doctor.

*sighs* Seriously, I did not want to come home after a long day at college to what looks to be a Category II shitstorm being generated by all parties. -_-

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

No, it was stated in the epilogue that she refused promotion, the reason wasn't mentioned however. She probably just loves her current job too much to head higher. Though, you only get to refuse it so often before they stop offering it anymore.

I re-checked, and you're right. It was not stated that she refused the promotion to take care of Vivio, however the text afterwards does suggest heavilly that the reason is because she loves her job too much.

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

*sighs* Seriously, I did not want to come home after a long day at college to what looks to be a Category II shitstorm being generated by all parties. -_-

Just another day in the OC-thread. This storm is just a bit heavier then the usual ones.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

You seem to be assuming that a magic staff is aimed and fired like a gun. This is certainly not the case. Mages can conjure up attack balls in the air around them then send them off with a wave of their hand. Pointing your staff at the target seems to be optional.
You have some good points though.

That's not really the issue. Yes, they can do what you said and they can use homing bullets for the matter. However, ergonomically, using the sights and lining up is about the easiest way to aim.

Trying to do that stuff you mentioned inevitably adds extra variables to the shooting solution. With talent and training, it might be overcome (and canon insists it can), but let's not confuse that with what's ergonomic.

A quote describing the Federation Type II hand phaser is appropriate:

Spoiler for StarDestroyer.Net:

This weapon is an ergonomic nightmare in every conceivable respect. With no trigger guard, it is dangerous to handle and prone to accidental discharge (I pity the Federation soldier who tries to catch one). Would anyone design a real-life handgun with no trigger guard, using the rationale that the safety switch is the same as a trigger guard? I doubt it. Worse yet, with no sighting devices of any kind, it is exceedingly difficult to aim. The shape of its handgrip forces you to either hold your wrist in an uncomfortable position or hold it far too low to sight down its barrel (an impossible feat anyway, given the bizarre shape of the gun). No one could possibly achieve proficiency with this sort of gun without huge amounts of practice, thus compensating for its horrible ergonomics through sheer determination. In effect, a skilled marksman with this sort of weapon is the equivalent of a modern-day circus-act trick-shooter who can hit bulls-eyes while shooting behind his back or while blind-folded. The ability to hit the target represents strenuous training in order to compensate for the inherent self-inflicted difficulty of the scenario, and it in no way exonerates the horrendous design of the weapon itself.

[dkellis]

Originally Posted by Kha

My sentiments as above, if we really are gonna lose our most favorite Librarians since the Orang Utan and Yuuno.

Well for me, it's that pocket dimensions don't always have to stay alone. They can be linked via wormholes to other pockets. This was a premise that I'm working with to link the Infinite Library to the Library Island. That's why we see Chao as one of the most prominent non-combat member of the Nanohaverse's Celestial Being, instead of her lookalike from 2342.

If I may suggest:

~~~~~~

The accidental discovery of the first section of what would become called the Infinite Libray began the wave of reconstruction after the tumultous post-Belka Imperiallum years as scientists and magiengineers alike plumbed its vast depths for innovation and knowledge.

As time passed, and GDI gave way to TSAB, a scholastic settlement grew slowly around the portal into this pocket dimension. And as more time passed, that outpost grew and was upgraded and designated as the Main HQ in MC 0000.

That single coiled tube was huge, as almost the size of a planet, but recently, wormholes have been discovered linking that inverted planetoid to other like structures. It was then theorized that the complete structure of the Infinite Library was that of a bunch of grapes, of several pockets linked together via shield-stabilized portions of the Warp transcending voidspace. As such, the 37th and their link became tasked to seek out and map all of the new grapes.

However, as once-sealed wormholes were opened and more knowledge gained, a old sentinel began to stir. Can the 37th contain the worms from the can they've just opened?

~~~~~~

How's that? I was thinking the Library Island was one such grape, and even it was infested with its share of dungeon creeps. The Elders could've sealed themselves in another part of the Library, or even have existed on a spectrum beyond the sense of humans, and have been watching the TSAB's every move.

There's still a literary way forward, I'm sure of it! Don't give up! Remember what we always say:

"Believe in us, who believe in you!"

I hope this has helped somewhat.

Thanks, Kha. It's similiar to my original intention of what the Infinite Library is (and actually identical, practically speaking), but I don't know if it'll still be valid for canon.

I'm going to rant and whine for a bit here.

Spoiler for Cut for ranting.:

What I should be doing is what people have told me to do, which is to find another way to make the original concept fit in the Nanoha-verse without having to redo the whold thing. And considering how high my hopes were for the story, I should be glad of any second chances, right?

But, honestly speaking, I have no motivation to do so.

This is because of what I have been harping on for a while now: I asked if the concept I had for the Infinite Library could plausibly be canonical, and got "no problem, go for it" replies, three times. So I went forward with the story on the assumption that it was all right, but only too late received incontrovertible proof from canon that it is not all right.

So. Let's say I come up with a synthesis of the idea and what I know now from canon. I ask if this is okay, and get affirmatives.

But I really, really don't want what happened just now to happen again. After all, didn't I already get assurances before? More than once, even? Why would this time be any different?

I also asked for any information about the Infinite Library, no matter how trivial. The fact that it was located in TSAB Main HQ was not mentioned until now.

Is it anyone's fault? I cannot reasonably expect anyone to keep track of all my posts and answer immediately, but I also cannot think of anything I should have done differently to prevent this fiasco from happening. I can't blame the reassurances from before because they're operating on insufficient information, and since I was the one asking in the first place, I'm operating on even less information, so blaming anyone at this point would be hypocritical. I can't blame the contradiction now for not being mentioned earlier, because we all know that backlog is hell.

It all ends up as a "sucks to be you" situation. And that's incredibly demoralizing.

So my options are as follows:

• Come up with other versions of how the Infinite Library works, present them to the thread, and get assurances of canon compliance with the perpetual Damocles of getting another contradiction in the future which was not mentioned before, thus thoroughly destroying any hope of the story ever being written.
• Call it an Alternate Universe story, but with only that one detail being different. I've never done this before, since my AUs tend to be all-or-nothing. I don't know where to even start, in the sense of making it obvious enough that people won't comment on "no, that's not canonical" all the time.
• Scrap the story. I may re-tell it as an original story, but its life as a Nanoha-verse fanfic is over.

I can't tell another story with my OCs other than this one, because my OCs were made for this story. I could repurpose them, but then I have to rework everything, since all the nuances are lost, like Rancer's mysterious past, or Reiz's father, or Ivey's personality quirks.

And I might, in the far future, be able to tell another story, but this one is the one I want to tell right now. Every writer, sooner or later, will understand the feeling.

-

I'm going to start anew here:

What do we know for certain about the Infinite Library, in absolute trivial detail?

Sources if possible, please. I will be asking and challenging and asking again, because this time, I do not want to get anything wrong.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

That's not really the issue. Yes, they can do what you said and they can use homing bullets for the matter. However, ergonomically, using the sights and lining up is about the easiest way to aim.

Trying to do that stuff you mentioned inevitably adds extra variables to the shooting solution. With talent and training, it might be overcome (and canon insists it can), but let's not confuse that with what's ergonomic.

A quote describing the Federation Type II hand phaser is appropriate:

Spoiler for StarDestroyer.Net:

This weapon is an ergonomic nightmare in every conceivable respect. With no trigger guard, it is dangerous to handle and prone to accidental discharge (I pity the Federation soldier who tries to catch one). Would anyone design a real-life handgun with no trigger guard, using the rationale that the safety switch is the same as a trigger guard? I doubt it. Worse yet, with no sighting devices of any kind, it is exceedingly difficult to aim. The shape of its handgrip forces you to either hold your wrist in an uncomfortable position or hold it far too low to sight down its barrel (an impossible feat anyway, given the bizarre shape of the gun). No one could possibly achieve proficiency with this sort of gun without huge amounts of practice, thus compensating for its horrible ergonomics through sheer determination. In effect, a skilled marksman with this sort of weapon is the equivalent of a modern-day circus-act trick-shooter who can hit bulls-eyes while shooting behind his back or while blind-folded. The ability to hit the target represents strenuous training in order to compensate for the inherent self-inflicted difficulty of the scenario, and it in no way exonerates the horrendous design of the weapon itself.

Am I the only one finding this comparison completely out of place? We are talking magical weapons with sci-fi elements, not the reverse.

Things like using sights for aiming and trigger guard (lolwut? A magical staff with a trigger?) become rather redundant when where you place your hands doesn't matter when you are using your mind to fire. The aiming part could hold some sence, were it not that A: bullets can be controlled, therefore aiming in the general direction of the enemy is enough or B: In the case of large blasts, the device can adjust if adjustment is even needed.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by arkangelsk

However, ergonomically, using the sights and lining up is about the easiest way to aim.

No, looking at an object, highlighting it in your mind, then mentally telling your device, "that's my target, fire!" is the easiest way to aim.

[Kha]

Originally Posted by Aaron008R

Serena fits the bill PERFECTLY! (she's natural)

She's Mid-childan in style. Uses an arm-blade as a device ala-Exia. And has an Ice Affinity. Perfect!

I'm petitioning her for the spot! Details away!

She's a bit of an elitist, a COLD tsundere instead of a loud, shouting one. She looks like Leona Garstein from SRW OG (also 18 years old). She's voiced by Yui Sakakibara. She also has some sort of unpleasant history with the Linebackers... She's a HORRIBLE cook (worse than Shamal). And finally, she also has a crush on any male in RF6 you should see fit.

Whew. Profile in a day or two. Need any more details?

And you know what?! I WAS looking for a elitist, like a Meia-type!!! It's one char-type really missing from this bubbly crew!!!

Crush on any male eh? Maybe I'd let Vice and Erio slug it out.

No I should throw Griffith into the mix, and let Tesla and Serena engage in eye-power cat-fight!!!

OMG I'm SO SOLD!!!!!!

I have to apologize to the other applicants. Really sorry!

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Probably true. You'll notice that many powerful magic spells - for example, Divine Buster deploy containment rings to get some of the effect. A hardwired barrel will presumably be more efficient.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Actually, potential benefits to magic aside, when it comes to a human doing medium and long range shooting, the gun is far more ergonomic than a magestaff. The ball on the magestaff actually blocks your view of a target and makes the use of sights nearly impossible, forcing the use of an "electronic sight". It is probably also considerable less comfortable to rest it on your shoulder (compared to a optimized rifle stock). All that reduces long range accuracy. Further, the gun provides natural places for cartridges, which have to be awkwardly crammed in with a staff.

This is why Pilot-who-shot-his-sister (oh what's his name again) uses something that's similar to a sniper rifle. He exploits both ergonomics and barrel containment. Which is probably why his shots are some of the highest velocities in the series.

It's Vice Granscenic, our resident Shogeki-tan (blame Sak-chan for that. ).

Valid points here. I'll take it.

Originally Posted by stormturmoil

Just to add another point onh the subject, for what it's worth:

Nanoha's dad was almost killed when she was very young, and that can seriously affect a young child's outlook even much later in life, since it's common assumption by young children that their fathers are invulnerable and will always be there. Finding out that isn't the case can be very scarring for a child.

as for whether or not people were there to help her: it doesn't really matter where anyone is, only whether Nanoha lets them in. It's possible to spend all day every day in the same room with other people and yet never be in the same place.

Er... Wrong Nanoha? Daddy Takamachi survived that supposedly fatal incident of Toraha, creating the world we all know as the Nanohaverse.

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

That would work for single shots, but doesn't seem to be efficient for casting multiple simultaneous shots.

Maybe staffs are better at multiple projectile control, and barrels are better with singles? But since a device can only have 1 shape, this represents some kind of specialization of function?

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

That's something, but that implies the design was once important for a reason. Be great to find out what. Try to avoid "weapons used to look like this" as an explaination if possible. That would be rather plain, don't you agree?

Yeah... I was kinda running low on creativity there.

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Another point, which I think could be important, is that all the Lanstar guns we've seen, Tiida's pistol, Tea's old anchorgun and CM, all have a physical trigger. They seemed designed to need it, unlike any other magic devices.

In a tight spot with little room to swing, or heck when your linker core is being gorged out like in A's, I'd go for a trigger as a spell-launch command anytime. Practicality perhaps?

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

You seem to be assuming that a magic staff is aimed and fired like a gun. This is certainly not the case. Mages can conjure up attack balls in the air around them then send them off with a wave of their hand. Pointing your staff at the target seems to be optional.
You have some good points though.

I think pointing the staff is a type of Fire-and-Forget; it then depends a lot on AI targeting, something not available to the massproduced and more common Armed Devices. Maybe straight-fire shots are better used with a barrel? Those beamspamming (more like spitspamming ) Staffers in canon look like they are using way too much effort for too little effect.

Originally Posted by Saint X

I Also have Dr. Lingshen in TSAB you know... one and same?

I only got the idea after Lowe let it leak that Chao and Wang could've been the same person. Maybe?

Originally Posted by Saint X

Bridget has no Squad assigned to her yet... and you're just looking for a Mid-Type user anyway, not anything non-descript, Like Dei.

*goes back to DLing CLANNAD*

Hmmmmmmmmmmm... I think I prefer Serena though.

[Tormenk]

Originally Posted by dkellis

I'm going to start anew here:

What do we know for certain about the Infinite Library, in absolute trivial detail?

Sources if possible, please. I will be asking and challenging and asking again, because this time, I do not want to get anything wrong.

If I might suggest, it's better to comb through the sources at their rawest form since it will be easier for you to find and analyze what it is you need then dealing with secondary information dealt out through individual filtering of information, which will result in omissions sometimes. From there you can match up your own ideas and corroborate here for accuracy. Information on the library is spread out in tiny bits and pieces in very select scenes in the manga and sound stages since mentions of it are brief and rare so I can't say it's very efficient either.

[stormturmoil]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Am I the only one finding this comparison completely out of place? We are talking magical weapons with sci-fi elements, not the reverse.

Things like using sights for aiming and trigger guard (lolwut? A magical staff with a trigger?) become rather redundant when where you place your hands doesn't matter when you are using your mind to fire. The aiming part could hold some sence, were it not that A: bullets can be controlled, therefore aiming in the general direction of the enemy is enough or B: In the case of large blasts, the device can adjust if adjustment is even needed.

It could be psychological.

I've actually been running this through my head regarding my characters current status. Since he's a projection, essentially a solid hologram similar to the Star Trek Holodeck/holodoctor appeal, why does he need a weapon/armour?

in David's case, his projected 'body' reacts as his subconscious expects it to, unless he consciously enforces his will power and overrides it - so if you hit him, it hurts - because he expects that it should hurt.

(stupid should hurt, etc)

Now, he can override that, but doing so requires concentration, which stops him doing other things, and also requires he know it's coming.

so he can summon a suit of 'field armour' as part of his projection, to offer some psychological protection - because he expects it should hurt less if he's wearing armour, that's exactly what happens...

in the same vein, one of his offensive spells, Creation Cannon, summons a projection of a gun type weapon to discharge the energy bolts from.

The weapon projection isn't actually required to facilitate this, and actually contains no actual working parts...but because it's a familiar shape and function it feels more natural to be launching energy bolts from a gun than just making them appear in mid air.

because it seems more natural, David is more confident with the spell, and that extra confidence translates to superior accuracy and control, purely due to psychological reasons.

So, rather than be a purely functional design decision to make Teana's Devices gun shaped, it may also be psychological as well. If Teana is more comfortable with gun type Devices than another shape, it may translate into extra confidence in her spells, and so better accuracy and control

for your average Mid-type mage growing up around Mid-type mages, however, the Staff type Devices image may be so ingrained into their psyche as to produce the same effect despite the obvious ergonomic challenges of a staff as a launcher type weapon, in effect their confidence in the staff as symbol of Mid-type magecraft may overide it's other shortcomings and be more accurate and powerful simply because they feel it should

It may all be a giant example of a Placebo effect.

[Kha]

Originally Posted by dkellis

Thanks, Kha. It's similiar to my original intention of what the Infinite Library is (and actually identical, practically speaking), but I don't know if it'll still be valid for canon.

I'm going to rant and whine for a bit here.

Spoiler for Cut for ranting.:

What I should be doing is what people have told me to do, which is to find another way to make the original concept fit in the Nanoha-verse without having to redo the whold thing. And considering how high my hopes were for the story, I should be glad of any second chances, right?

But, honestly speaking, I have no motivation to do so.

This is because of what I have been harping on for a while now: I asked if the concept I had for the Infinite Library could plausibly be canonical, and got "no problem, go for it" replies, three times. So I went forward with the story on the assumption that it was all right, but only too late received incontrovertible proof from canon that it is not all right.

So. Let's say I come up with a synthesis of the idea and what I know now from canon. I ask if this is okay, and get affirmatives.

But I really, really don't want what happened just now to happen again. After all, didn't I already get assurances before? More than once, even? Why would this time be any different?

I also asked for any information about the Infinite Library, no matter how trivial. The fact that it was located in TSAB Main HQ was not mentioned until now.

Is it anyone's fault? I cannot reasonably expect anyone to keep track of all my posts and answer immediately, but I also cannot think of anything I should have done differently to prevent this fiasco from happening. I can't blame the reassurances from before because they're operating on insufficient information, and since I was the one asking in the first place, I'm operating on even less information, so blaming anyone at this point would be hypocritical. I can't blame the contradiction now for not being mentioned earlier, because we all know that backlog is hell.

It all ends up as a "sucks to be you" situation. And that's incredibly demoralizing.

So my options are as follows:

• Come up with other versions of how the Infinite Library works, present them to the thread, and get assurances of canon compliance with the perpetual Damocles of getting another contradiction in the future which was not mentioned before, thus thoroughly destroying any hope of the story ever being written.
• Call it an Alternate Universe story, but with only that one detail being different. I've never done this before, since my AUs tend to be all-or-nothing. I don't know where to even start, in the sense of making it obvious enough that people won't comment on "no, that's not canonical" all the time.
• Scrap the story. I may re-tell it as an original story, but its life as a Nanoha-verse fanfic is over.

I can't tell another story with my OCs other than this one, because my OCs were made for this story. I could repurpose them, but then I have to rework everything, since all the nuances are lost, like Rancer's mysterious past, or Reiz's father, or Ivey's personality quirks.

And I might, in the far future, be able to tell another story, but this one is the one I want to tell right now. Every writer, sooner or later, will understand the feeling.

-

I'm going to start anew here:

What do we know for certain about the Infinite Library, in absolute trivial detail?

Sources if possible, please. I will be asking and challenging and asking again, because this time, I do not want to get anything wrong.

Oh man ouch. >_< Reminds me of the two times I revised Kha and his entire world. But I'm glad that you've gathered the will to give it another go. Keep at it!

OK... Personally, I've nothing much to dig out of my pockets on this. Tormenk mentioned that it'll be a bit hard, but I think Keroko can be a great help when it comes to manga sources with his Silver Retriever. I'm running through the anime series for mentions and pans. Maybe someone else can do the Soundstages? It's pure gibberish to me, regrettably.

[Kikaifan]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Am I the only one finding this comparison completely out of place? We are talking magical weapons with sci-fi elements, not the reverse.

Things like using sights for aiming and trigger guard (lolwut? A magical staff with a trigger?) become rather redundant when where you place your hands doesn't matter when you are using your mind to fire. The aiming part could hold some sence, were it not that A: bullets can be controlled, therefore aiming in the general direction of the enemy is enough or B: In the case of large blasts, the device can adjust if adjustment is even needed.

Valid for the main characters, but they all have custom weapons with AI-assisted VR for HUD and probably weapon stabilization through their barrier jackets anyway. It's the poor grunts with their chunky mass-produced devices (what is it with Midchildan industrial design aesthetics?) who seem like they actually have to aim; they're sort of getting screwed twice.

[Reiji Tabibito]

Originally Posted by Kha

Full-sized, especially asset wise.

Originally Posted by dkellis

You know, I asked three times, at the beginning of StrikerS, in the middle of StrikerS, and after the end of StrikerS, and got no contradictions. I watched everything I had, and had no confirmation that the Infinite Library was physically in Main HQ.

If that isn't due diligence, then I don't know what is.

I'm done. I'm out. Lyrical Melancholy, Lyrical Rage, and Lyrical Envy, all scrapped.

Bye.

Originally Posted by dkellis

Spoiler for Cut for those who don't care:

The basis of the story is that a long time ago, a splinter faction from Al Hazard went and made their own society, taking their own set of Lost Logia.

After a while, they decided to evolve themselves into pure information, but since their particular dimension (which may or may not be this one; it doesn't matter) doesn't work for their brand of information-without-media, they translocated their entire society into a dimension which could support it. This happened to be the dimension that the TSAB would start exploring as the Infinite Library.

The story is thus supposed to be about discovering this pure information society, and stopping them from taking over the Infinite Library. Along the way, I have plenty of notes to be inserted into dialogue about the relationship between magic and information, information and cryptography, and AIs and Rampancy, along with speculations on why Al Hazard fell and why this is emblematic of that.

If the Infinite Library is just a big collection of books, then I can't use that story.

The reason I'm irritated is that I did ask about this three times and got no objections, and only after I actually started working on it and building up a whole story outline and released the chapter did I get, well, this.

It was a canon contradiction, but nobody bothered to inform me until too late.

It's nobody's fault as such, but I don't know how else I could have avoided this but to spam the same question throughout the run of StrikerS every week or something, which I think the mods would not look kindly upon. Damned if I do and damned if I don't: I'm just going "so what would you have had me do?"

Hence, my irritation at the fact of Life Isn't Fair. And that irritation grows because I can't do anything about it.

Don't feel bad.

Really, don't.

Except for a few people around here <glances @ Kha, Aaron, Keroko, and Lowe>, most everyone has to say something at least twice to get noticed.

I found that size 5+ font helps. Tremendously.

Originally Posted by Keroko

I rather like number 9 too:

"I will not include a self-destruct mechanism unless absolutely necessary. If it is necessary, it will not be a large red button labelled "Danger: Do Not Push". The big red button marked "Do Not Push" will instead trigger a spray of bullets on anyone stupid enough to disregard it. Similarly, the ON/OFF switch will not clearly be labelled as such."

I also like 85:

I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button."

Originally Posted by FlameSparkZ

Hmm...December huh?
Sore wa komaru ~desu hai...I was planning a vacation for them back on Earth
But crime never sleeps...
[/COLOR]

If you want, I can do a few things for you...


1) Have someone (probably Yui) complain about the fact that they had JUST gotten their vacation request approved, and now it's been cancelled due to the call-up.

2) Give Koji and Maren a Christmas Eve date... if you want, it can be a double date with Arcas and Mel.

3) Give Koji and Maren a...<cough> scene...

BTW, I know you said this somewhere, but what happens to Maren & the Minawas after the breakup of MD6?

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

No, looking at an object, highlighting it in your mind, then mentally telling your device, "that's my target, fire!" is the easiest way to aim.

OK. Granted. But when we get that ridiculous, we might as well say the easiest method is to dispense with having to mentally designate targets for your device and make the device read your mind, dig up your target list, self prioritize and fire. Or maybe the device should just be completely automatic, waking you up from your slumber when your enemies are all dead.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Am I the only one finding this comparison completely out of place? We are talking magical weapons with sci-fi elements, not the reverse.

Actually, from the viewpoint of analysis, there is little to distinguish the two. A further similarity is that fans like to use both to try and excuse gross violations of fundamentals.

The aiming part could hold some sence, were it not that A: bullets can be controlled, therefore aiming in the general direction of the enemy is enough or B: In the case of large blasts, the device can adjust if adjustment is even needed.

B. Yes, to some extent it can be "electronically" steered, but that's another case of trying to use complexity to try and compensate for bad ergonomics. Further, there are clear limits to how much or how precisely steering can be done, or else RH would not be projecting an electronic sight for Nanoha, who presumably is aiming with her hands, and that's when all the ergonomics about grips and stocks and the like starts to influence the outcome.

As for A, homing bullets tend to be slow. And for both homing and non-homing types, you will also note that there is a delay b/w the appearance of the ball and its firing. What is probably happening is that either the weapon or the mage is working out the correct firing parameters to feed into the weapon.

Finally, you'll notice that battle ranges are mostly on the short side, which suggests that despite A and B, the lack of proper aiming aids are still doing them few favors.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by arkangelsk

OK. Granted. But when we get that ridiculous, we might as well say the easiest method is to dispense with having to mentally designate targets for your device and make the device read your mind, dig up your target list, self prioritize and fire.

Geez, we're talking about magical devices remember? That does appear to be how devices in MGLN work. Which is what we're discussing, right?

Or maybe the device should just be completely automatic, waking you up from your slumber when your enemies are all dead.

Sounds just like the bezerk Book of Darkness.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by stormturmoil

It could be psychological.

Spoiler for david:

I've actually been running this through my head regarding my characters current status. Since he's a projection, essentially a solid hologram similar to the Star Trek Holodeck/holodoctor appeal, why does he need a weapon/armour?

in David's case, his projected 'body' reacts as his subconscious expects it to, unless he consciously enforces his will power and overrides it - so if you hit him, it hurts - because he expects that it should hurt.

(stupid should hurt, etc)

Now, he can override that, but doing so requires concentration, which stops him doing other things, and also requires he know it's coming.

so he can summon a suit of 'field armour' as part of his projection, to offer some psychological protection - because he expects it should hurt less if he's wearing armour, that's exactly what happens...

in the same vein, one of his offensive spells, Creation Cannon, summons a projection of a gun type weapon to discharge the energy bolts from.

The weapon projection isn't actually required to facilitate this, and actually contains no actual working parts...but because it's a familiar shape and function it feels more natural to be launching energy bolts from a gun than just making them appear in mid air.

because it seems more natural, David is more confident with the spell, and that extra confidence translates to superior accuracy and control, purely due to psychological reasons.

So, rather than be a purely functional design decision to make Teana's Devices gun shaped, it may also be psychological as well. If Teana is more comfortable with gun type Devices than another shape, it may translate into extra confidence in her spells, and so better accuracy and control

for your average Mid-type mage growing up around Mid-type mages, however, the Staff type Devices image may be so ingrained into their psyche as to produce the same effect despite the obvious ergonomic challenges of a staff as a launcher type weapon, in effect their confidence in the staff as symbol of Mid-type magecraft may overide it's other shortcomings and be more accurate and powerful simply because they feel it should

It may all be a giant example of a Placebo effect.

Wouldn't the entire hologram thing make David technically immortal? That would raise yet more points... why not have him be more along the lines of Rein? She can go hologram (like at the end of A's) but she also has a corporal form that can be damaged.

Originally Posted by Kha

Oh man ouch. >_< Reminds me of the two times I revised Kha and his entire world. But I'm glad that you've gathered the will to give it another go. Keep at it!

OK... Personally, I've nothing much to dig out of my pockets on this. Tormenk mentioned that it'll be a bit hard, but I think Keroko can be a great help when it comes to manga sources with his Silver Retriever. I'm running through the anime series for mentions and pans. Maybe someone else can do the Soundstages? It's pure gibberish to me, regrettably.

I could gather all the translated chapters if you want them.

Originally Posted by Kikaifan

Valid for the main characters, but they all have custom weapons with AI-assisted VR for HUD and probably weapon stabilization through their barrier jackets anyway. It's the poor grunts with their chunky mass-produced devices (what is it with Midchildan industrial design aesthetics?) who seem like they actually have to aim; they're sort of getting screwed twice.

Do they? The only one I ever saw aim is Vice. The rest of them were spamming away hapilly.

Originally Posted by Reiji Tabibito

I also like 85:

I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button."

Or 116: "If I capture the hero's starship, I will keep it in the landing bay with the ramp down, only a few token guards on duty and a ton of explosives set to go off as soon as it clears the blast-range."

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

OK. Granted. But when we get that ridiculous, we might as well say the easiest method is to dispense with having to mentally designate targets for your device and make the device read your mind, dig up your target list, self prioritize and fire. Or maybe the device should just be completely automatic, waking you up from your slumber when your enemies are all dead.

*cough*Mach Caliber*cough*

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Actually, from the viewpoint of analysis, there is little to distinguish the two. A further similarity is that fans like to use both to try and excuse gross violations of fundamentals.

Pffrt, I still don't buy that bull about magic and technollogy being the same. The second part is correct, though, if only in certain aplications (sci-fi being more easy to fundementalize then magic).

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

B. Yes, to some extent it can be "electronically" steered, but that's another case of trying to use complexity to try and compensate for bad ergonomics. Further, there are clear limits to how much or how precisely steering can be done, or else RH would not be projecting an electronic sight for Nanoha, who presumably is aiming with her hands, and that's when all the ergonomics about grips and stocks and the like starts to influence the outcome.

Where did Nanoha even see the electronic sight? Did you see a sight Nanoha was staring though other then the cross while targeting? Again, this looks more like a mental thing then a physical one.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

As for A, homing bullets tend to be slow. And for both homing and non-homing types, you will also note that there is a delay b/w the appearance of the ball and its firing. What is probably happening is that either the weapon or the mage is working out the correct firing parameters to feed into the weapon.

I would like to know what you are basing this one. Nanoha's blasts are pretty damn fast, as are Vita's. And Fate's. And Teana's. Same thing goes for casting time, Nanoha's Axel Shooter is pretty much instant, and still can be controlled.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Finally, you'll notice that battle ranges are mostly on the short side, which suggests that despite A and B, the lack of proper aiming aids are still doing them few favors.

But if an enemy is close, taking the time to look down an aiming sight doesn't exactly do you much favors either.

[Kikaifan]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

OK. Granted. But when we get that ridiculous, we might as well say the easiest method is to dispense with having to mentally designate targets for your device and make the device read your mind, dig up your target list, self prioritize and fire. Or maybe the device should just be completely automatic, waking you up from your slumber when your enemies are all dead.

Well, the Book of Darkness IS the ultimate personal weapon in the Nanohaverse. It just screws up that last part where you wake up once the enemies are dead.

B. Yes, to some extent it can be "electronically" steered, but that's another case of trying to use complexity to try and compensate for bad ergonomics. Further, there are clear limits to how much or how precisely steering can be done, or else RH would not be projecting an electronic sight for Nanoha, who presumably is aiming with her hands, and that's when all the ergonomics about grips and stocks and the like starts to influence the outcome.

AFAIK beam attacks never miss in Nanoha. Ever. The closest was Nanoha's partial hit on Vita, and that was at close range anyway. Whatever system they're using obviously more than compensates for ergonomic issues.

As for A, homing bullets tend to be slow. And for both homing and non-homing types, you will also note that there is a delay b/w the appearance of the ball and its firing. What is probably happening is that either the weapon or the mage is working out the correct firing parameters to feed into the weapon.

Since my last post probably got missed... I think this is at least partly a stylistic issue. Most Nanoha combat scenes are pretty sedentary. They like to show you the set up and the pitch and some flight time and the reaction and only then the impact.

Of course sometimes it does just look like the projectiles are stupidly slow.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Do they? The only one I ever saw aim is Vice. The rest of them were spamming away hapilly.

IIRC the aerial guys shoot from the hip but the ground guys actually aim? I'm probably wrong. I've been away from my Nanoha eps for three months now. I still haven't seen 26.


I think part of the source of all this is that the mages were designed in the image of mecha more than infantry. Mecha have HUDs and control their fire with computers so MSLN mages do too. And of course they were also designed in the image of mages, who generally just do things by waving their hands about.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Geez, we're talking about magical devices remember?

See what I've said about magic and sci-fi.

That does appear to be how devices in MGLN work. Which is what we're discussing, right?

The fact that there are such things as sights strongly suggest that the process is generally not nearly as automated as you propose.

[Saint X]

Originally Posted by Kha

I only got the idea after Lowe let it leak that Chao and Wang could've been the same person. Maybe?

Another of Lowe's Crack ideas huh?

he is a citizen of the Repubilc of CRACK Philippines after all



PS: checked out Wang...

Wang = Chao = DOES COMPUTE

Originally Posted by Kha

Hmmmmmmmmmmm... I think I prefer Serena though.

noted... I'm offering Bridget to FSZ anyway.

===

Offtopic:

Please move any Tech Discussions to the Tech Lab Please... not here in the OC Library...

Just a friendly reminder from

*gets shot from mulitiple directions*

[Evangelion Xgouki]

Originally Posted by Kha

Full-sized, especially asset wise.

Given she was made by Hayate, why am I not surprised

Originally Posted by Kha

Not to mention free flow of CHEESE!

Mmmm....cheese....blue cheese....

Originally Posted by Aaron008R

EPICNESS incoming!

I'm glad you took the job. Thanks!
(BTW, it was FieryAeon's idea to commission you...)

Actually, I think it was FiertAeon's original idea and then Tormenk found it to be a good idea and helped