Kyoto Animation: Studio discussion, speculation, and whatnot.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

Naw, there's one simple reason Sunrise is as high as it is:

Gundam.

We're talking about the biggest anime franchise in existence, with a huge number of fanboys. Without Gundam, Sunrise would be an also ran.

This is what I meant by "established and sustained fanbase", the moe boom may collapse for all they care, Bandai will always sponsor them to push more robot toys.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Sheba

This is what I meant by "established and sustained fanbase", the moe boom may collapse for all they care, Bandai will always sponsor them to push more robot toys.

Yeah, but I thought it was important to note that it's not directly related to the studio, but for a particular franchise associated with it.

By comparison, KyoAni's stature in that ranking is less tied to one specific franchise compared to Sunrise.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

Naw, there's one simple reason Sunrise is as high as it is:

Gundam.

We're talking about the biggest anime franchise in existence, with a huge number of fanboys. Without Gundam, Sunrise would be an also ran.

I would beg to differ for many reasons, but that's for another thread.

[Random32]

By comparison, KyoAni's stature in that ranking is less tied to one specific franchise compared to Sunrise.

It's tied to moe. It's not a franchise, but it's still a very specific thing that KyoAni is tied to. If moe is replaced, KyoAni has to adapt or die since invoking moe is the primary thing they do.

Of course, I don't think we'll see moe dying out in the near future. The next fad hasn't even appeared yet, and after the new fad comes in, moe will be reduced to what mecha is now and as the undisputed king of moe, KyoAni will at least be near secured a spot on the list where Sunrise is now.

[Eater of All]

Originally Posted by Random32

It's tied to moe. It's not a franchise, but it's still a very specific thing that KyoAni is tied to. If moe is replaced, KyoAni has to adapt or die since invoking moe is the primary thing they do.

Of course, I don't think we'll see moe dying out in the near future. The next fad hasn't even appeared yet, and after the new fad comes in, moe will be reduced to what mecha is now and as the undisputed king of moe, KyoAni will at least be near secured a spot on the list where Sunrise is now.

Next fad: despairfest, Urobuchi style?

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by Eater of All

Next fad: despairfest, Urobuchi style?

Despair. Om nom nom nom!

To add to that, cute, innocent, generally "moe" girls being torn part on a emotional and/or physical level

[Skane]

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

Despair. Om nom nom nom!

To add to that, cute, innocent, generally "moe" girls being torn part on a emotional and/or physical level

So... a return to AIR(TV)?

Cheers.

[Triple_R]

With Sunrise, I think that they're viewed as "The King of Mecha" in general. Gundam is a large part of that, but not all of it. I think that Sunrise also appeals to some "old-school" anime fans, and perhaps some fujoshis have jumped aboard the Sunrise train due to Tiger and Bunny.

[Skane]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

With Sunrise, I think that they're viewed as "The King of Mecha" in general. Gundam is a large part of that, but not all of it. I think that Sunrise also appeals to some "old-school" anime fans, and perhaps some fujoshis have jumped aboard the Sunrise train due to Tiger and Bunny.

When I think of Sunrise and Mecha, I'm personally thinking more of GaoGaiGar. Which is why the following video is highly amusing to me.

YouTube

https://youtu.be/q0jDq0zyPf4

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Cheers.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by Skane

So... a return to AIR(TV)?

Cheers.

Nah. Air and Key in general is caveman despair. Except for After Story. That was good despair . But in general I want something more... damaging!

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Eternal September

Pointless generalization, the more tsundere-type characters are all over the list, with no obvious pattern between popularity and personality types.

Nagisa is more popular than Kyou, and Yuki is slightly more popular than Haruhi.

Oh, certainly the tsundere isn't the most popular in every show. But the archetype managed to win Anime Saimoe three years in a row (2008-2010 with Kagami/Taiga/Azusa) and charactes like Kana (Ano Natsu de Matteru), Mix (Aquarion Evol) and now Ibara (Hyouka) seem to be much, much more popular in polls than one would expect from their "stature" in their respective shows - something I can't say about Nagisa or Yuki.

I suppose you could take issue with my choice of "usually the most popular" but that's the kind of debate I see as largely pointless.

Anyway, like Triple_R I'm just wondering why she's ranked so high and can't come up with much other than tsundere appeal. From what I've seen, Eru is a far more impressive and memorable character.

[Westlo]

Bigglobe polls suck, stop posting them.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

I'm more surprised by Sunrise name being so high considering the total lack of regard the community seems to have for them and their works which aren't exactly in the realm of what's popular these days among your average otaku.

Lol? Maybe you're trying to downplay their otaku appeal so it makes you feel better but this isn't really the case. You seem to cite a "bangwagon" reaction leg by "bloggers" to Destiny, Otome, R2 etc as an example of the "community" hating Sunrise yet ignore that these series are genuine disappointments for fans of the first seasons, which they loved. Personally as someone who couldn't give a shit what other people think I'm insulted by this, I think they suck because they're vastly inferior to their predecessors and what bloggers, the community and memes say have f all to do with it. I can already see you pulling out the same crappy arguments when people don't like the Tiger and Bunny movies completely ignoring that it's just another case of "sequels" sucking.... (which isn't exactly something unique to Sunrise!) lots of people liked Men In Black, a lot of them hated Men In Black 2, must be some community effort to hate Sony films productions yeah!

SEED, Destiny, Geass and R2 were complete smash hits for Sunrise and had a shit load of otaku fans amongst others like fujoshis. You only have to look @ discussion on 2ch and see how those characters poll in various magazines to realize that. 00, 00 Pt 2, Mai-Hime, Mai-Otome, Gintama, Tiger & Bunny and Horizon have also been quite successful productions for Sunrise.... I'm disgusted you even tried to mention a de facto counterculture vote.

Originally Posted by Bri

Possibly the fujoshi vote, Sunrise has a strong presence in the pretty boy field with shows like Gundam Seed and 00, Code Geass, Tiger and Bunny and various high school battle anime.

Gintama also has legions of fujoshi fans, probably one of the reasons it has been such a consistent seller on DVD, the best along with Natsume which also has a big fujoshi fanbase.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Westlo

Bigglobe polls suck, stop posting them.



Lol? Maybe you're trying to downplay their otaku appeal so it makes you feel better but this isn't really the case. You seem to cite a "bangwagon" reaction leg by "bloggers" to Destiny, Otome, R2 etc as an example of the "community" hating Sunrise yet ignore that these series are genuine disappointments for fans of the first seasons, which they loved. Personally as someone who couldn't give a shit what other people think I'm insulted by this, I think they suck because they're vastly inferior to their predecessors and what bloggers, the community and memes say have f all to do with it. I can already see you pulling out the same crappy arguments when people don't like the Tiger and Bunny movies completely ignoring that it's just another case of "sequels" sucking.... (which isn't exactly something unique to Sunrise!) lots of people liked Men In Black, a lot of them hated Men In Black 2, must be some community effort to hate Sony films productions yeah!

SEED, Destiny, Geass and R2 were complete smash hits for Sunrise and had a shit load of otaku fans amongst others like fujoshis. You only have to look @ discussion on 2ch and see how those characters poll in various magazines to realize that. 00, 00 Pt 2, Mai-Hime, Mai-Otome, Gintama, Tiger & Bunny and Horizon have also been quite successful productions for Sunrise.... I'm disgusted you even tried to mention a de facto counterculture vote.



Gintama also has legions of fujoshi fans, probably one of the reasons it has been such a consistent seller on DVD, the best along with Natsume which also has a big fujoshi fanbase.

Nice derail.

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

KyoAni is overrated. Period. Newtype is too stupid for giving it too much attention when there are more worthy Studios to be recognized.

[Eternal September]

Originally Posted by Random32

It's tied to moe. It's not a franchise, but it's still a very specific thing that KyoAni is tied to. If moe is replaced, KyoAni has to adapt or die since invoking moe is the primary thing they do.

Of course, I don't think we'll see moe dying out in the near future. The next fad hasn't even appeared yet, and after the new fad comes in, moe will be reduced to what mecha is now and as the undisputed king of moe, KyoAni will at least be near secured a spot on the list where Sunrise is now.

Strange analogy, because while Sunrise actually makes more mecha shows than it's competition, so if the mecha fad dies they die with it, I think, people are starting to overstate KyoAni's level of participation in the current "moe fad".

For example, when we only saw a single promo picture about Hyouka (this one), and a two sentence description, everyone was already pointing at the screen and screaming about how it's so moe-moe kyun, and it must be something like "K-on meets Another", and how "they apparently went back to moe series after Nichijou's failure."

On the picture itself, you can see four teenagers drawn with a somehow typical modern aesthetic. If it would have been attached to any other studio's name, the only talking material would have been whether as the next crime mystery, it will be better or worse than Another. (even it's art style looks kind of similar to Another, especially Ibara's hairstyle or Satoshi's eyes and eyebrows). But it's made by KyoAni, so everyone kind of played up the "it's a KyoAni moe series so we can only talk about exactly how moe it is" angle.

I mean, it's not like KyoAni doing anything tangibly different than two thirds of other shows do and always did: they are showing teenagers with neotenous features having adventures, but they are not using an excessive number of cuteness tropes, or notably exaggerated cuteness tropes. Just in this season alone, we have AKB0048, Acchi Kocchi, and Saki, that are all objectively more reliant on moe art styles than Kyoani tends to be.

What I think we have here, is mixing up the slang phrase "moe", that people use for anything that they find appealing, with it's very specific interpretation as a recent genre/fad/style. What most people intend to highlight KyoAni for, is the former, their success at making appealing characters, but they aren't specifically invested in the genre/fad/style.

When the mecha fad was over, it marginalized the mecha genre and studios that profited from that. When the moe fad will be over, it will marinalize the studios that are living from the most excessively cutesy character designs and genres, and not the studios that make the most appealing, and attractive characters, that was always a main selling point, and always will be.

[Random32]

Originally Posted by BaKaBaKaOtaKu

KyoAni is overrated. Period. Newtype is too stupid for giving it too much attention when there are more worthy Studios to be recognized.

Care to explain reasoning?

Strange analogy, because while Sunrise actually makes more mecha shows than it's competition, so if the mecha fad dies they die with it, I think, people are starting to overstate KyoAni's level of participation in the current "moe fad".

There hasn't been a KyoAni series with characters that don't invoke moe. TSR maybe, but that is really an exception to the rule and a lot of the staff that did that have apparently left. Nichijyou, the artstyle isn't typical, but the characters still tend to cause moe feelings.

For example, when we only saw a single promo picture about Hyouka (this one), and a two sentence description, everyone was already pointing at the screen and screaming about how it's so moe-moe kyun, and it must be something like "K-on meets Another", and how "they apparently went back to moe series after Nichijou's failure."

But they sort of did. Nichijou was a comedy series with characters that invoke moe. So far, Hyouka is a moe series with mystery elements. Except maybe the Chitanda's uncle mystery, all the mysteries have been pretty everyday activities, not an Another style mystery. If it wasn't stated to be a mystery series, I might think it was a slice of life series that involved a very curious girl constantly bugging a lazy guy to figure stuff out for her.

I mean, it's not like KyoAni doing anything tangibly different than two thirds of other shows do and always did: they are showing teenagers with neotenous features having adventures, but they are not using an excessive number of cuteness tropes, or notably exaggerated cuteness tropes. Just in this season alone, we have AKB0048, Acchi Kocchi, and Saki, that are all objectively more reliant on moe art styles than Kyoani tends to be.

The new direction of KyoAni moe is "natural moe" or something, which was the result of the success of K-On both with otaku and outside otaku. So they aren't really involved in using a lot of standard moe tropes, but they are still involved in invoking tons of moe.

When the mecha fad was over, it marginalized the mecha genre and studios that profited from that. When the moe fad will be over, it will marinalize the studios that are living from the most excessively cutesy character designs and genres, and not the studios that make the most appealing, and attractive characters, that was always a main selling point, and always will be.

What is considered an appealing and attractive character changes. Just look at all the ugly 80's characters, in the 80's they were considered attractive and appealing. KyoAni is invested in a specific subset of making attractive and appealing characters, moe, I'm not sure they have the skills to make attractive appealing characters if my nightmares come true and macho manly is considered attractive and appealing.

[Skane]

Originally Posted by Random32

~~ KyoAni is invested in a specific subset of making attractive and appealing characters, moe, I'm not sure they have the skills to make attractive appealing characters if my nightmares come true and macho manly is considered attractive and appealing.

While I know this is probably not the best example to use, but Munto did have Gass. This is not counting the various ones from "FMP!".

Cheers.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by Eternal September

Strange analogy, because while Sunrise actually makes more mecha shows than it's competition, so if the mecha fad dies they die with it, I think, people are starting to overstate KyoAni's level of participation in the current "moe fad".

Sunrise is part of Bandai's massive Gundam toy franchise, which exists largely outside of anime. The popularity of a particular genre in anime are not going to effect it very much.

Originally Posted by Eternal September

What I think we have here, is mixing up the slang phrase "moe", that people use for anything that they find appealing, with it's very specific interpretation as a recent genre/fad/style. What most people intend to highlight KyoAni for, is the former, their success at making appealing characters, but they aren't specifically invested in the genre/fad/style.

True, Kyoani's core strength is in character animation. The source material seems to determine the style/genre. In the past they tried mecha with FMP, VN adaptions with Key, currently the focus seems to be on LN and gag manga adaptions. The only thing all their works have in common is that it features high school life.

Originally Posted by Random32

What is considered an appealing and attractive character changes. Just look at all the ugly 80's characters, in the 80's they were considered attractive and appealing. KyoAni is invested in a specific subset of making attractive and appealing characters, moe, I'm not sure they have the skills to make attractive appealing characters if my nightmares come true and macho manly is considered attractive and appealing.

Why would that be an issue? Kyoani usually simply adapts the designs of the original content to animation.

[Eternal September]

*Sigh*
This gonna turn into a "what is moe?" discussion...

Originally Posted by Random32

What is considered an appealing and attractive character changes. Just look at all the ugly 80's characters, in the 80's they were considered attractive and appealing. KyoAni is invested in a specific subset of making attractive and appealing characters, moe, I'm not sure they have the skills to make attractive appealing characters if my nightmares come true and macho manly is considered attractive and appealing.

Well, I think there are two different issues here. First, there is how shows like Ranma 1/2 looked in the 80's, and how shows like Fist of the North Star looked in the 80's.

The former is, I think not a problem for KyoAni. Even if we don't call those moe, because they was made before the phrase moe was created and applied to anime, they still fit into the pattern. Basically, most anime since Astro Boy, and most cartoons since Mickey Mouse, fit into the pattern that large-eyed, large-headed, cute characters are more lovable than mature-looking ones. It's a scientific fact, that neoteny (cuteness) is attractive. This is how we are hardwired. That anime also applied this fact to female characters, is just a logical result of much of anime being made for postpubescent boys and men.

Even if Ranma 1/2 used different visual tropes to highlight it, the tropes themselves don't matter that much, as long as the moe reaction is involved, and as you just said, that's what KyoAni always does. They are not successful because they draw eyes in the exact right shape, but because they evoke the feelings that attractive entertainment always intended to evoke.

Your latter implied problem, that the medium might get filled with macho men, is unlikely, as long as there is a strong male consumer base. Even in the 80's macho anime was more of a large niche, than the mainstream of attractiveness. They were the shows that weren't even trying to be attractive, they found something else than lovable characters to gather audiences. (e.g.: Grimdark, or grotesque humor, or intelligent plot). But most shows at the time that wanted to pull the viewer's heartstrings, still featured cute girls.

Stopping that whole trend would probably be biologically impossible.

Originally Posted by Random32

Nichijou was a comedy series with characters that invoke moe. So far, Hyouka is a moe series with mystery elements. Except maybe the Chitanda's uncle mystery, all the mysteries have been pretty everyday activities, not an Another style mystery. If it wasn't stated to be a mystery series, I might think it was a slice of life series that involved a very curious girl constantly bugging a lazy guy to figure stuff out for her.

Are we talking about storytelling genres now? That doesn't really matter, because KyoAni doesn't deal in writing premises. If you think that the Slice of Life settings gave these stories their appeal, then KyoAni didn't really have the skill to make popular shows to begin with, they were just lucky to adapt the stories written earlier by the right artists.

[ultimatemegax]

The 4th Kyoto Animation Awards have began accepting entries. This year there is a return to the three divisions of

1. Novel
2. Scenario
3. Manga

Grand Prize winners receive 100,000 yen for their entry while Encouragement Awards winners receive 10,000 yen for their entry.

To preempt a question, the outline states that any Grand Prize or Encouragement Award winner has a chance of being published in book format or on their website. Nothing is said about an anime adaptation for this time.

Entries are due by November 9 (scenario/manga) or December 10 (novel) of this year.