Nanoha StrikerS - Generic Discussion

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by Estavali

I wonder if full-size Rein is here to stay.

Because if she is, this might lead to fuller-size Rein aka this:

Spoiler for Rein, few years down the road?:

Aka zomg Hayate & Rein sexxoring during lunch break

[Estavali]

A really minor note, but I just noticed that the "X" in SSX is read as "I-ku-su" aka Ix.

Spoiler for Here, have a look, near the 'X' =3:

[DezoPenguin]

Originally Posted by Estavali

A really minor note, but I just noticed that the "X" in SSX is read as "I-ku-su" aka Ix.

Spoiler for Here, have a look, near the 'X' =3:

Actually, that's pretty cool. X is usually rendered as e-ku-su (like in the CLAMP series), so having it with an I does make it sound like they mean it as a sort-of pun on Ix's name. Sharp eyes, there!

[Estavali]

Originally Posted by DezoPenguin

Actually, that's pretty cool. X is usually rendered as e-ku-su (like in the CLAMP series), so having it with an I does make it sound like they mean it as a sort-of pun on Ix's name. Sharp eyes, there!

That's one beautiful thing about watching/reading the Sound Stage subs. The translator group (flsnow) used the CD covers as the background and there is no way anyone could have missed it after staring at the screen so long (well, provided you know some katakana, of course =3).

[Nagumo]

Originally Posted by Estavali

That's one beautiful thing about watching/reading the Sound Stage subs. The translator group (flsnow) used the CD covers as the background and there is no way anyone could have missed it after staring at the screen so long (well, provided you know some katakana, of course =3).

And thanks to flsnow I am making corrections to my SSX translations. Minor things, and sometimes huge humongous gaping mistakes things.

Anyone know where I should punt my email to?

[al103]

Don't know if it's right thread, but... I found something called "Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha - Visual Fanbook" and there is one thing that my eye caught - Fate, Linnith and chibi-Arf... And i got a thought - that chibification is not because energy conservation, but really because after Linnith death Arf was forced to take her role and after adoption it became unnecessary and she happily returned to her natural chibi form.

[PhoenixG]

I think it is a little of both. and yeah well Arf was "created" she was in a chibi form. So you could say it is her natural form.
About energy conservation. Arf did say that in this chibi form she consumes the least amount of mana from Fate-san.

[Evangelion Xgouki]

Going along those lines it could also be surmised that Arf was created in her smaller form on purpose. Since we don't know at which point in Fate's magical development she got Arf, it is possible Arf was created in the less mana-required form to allow Fate to become comfortable with the mana draw required to sustain a familiar. Then as she got stronger magically Arf could assume her adult form rather than right upon creation and being a sudden large mana draw for the young mage.

[Estavali]

Or it may be that Arf's human form (chibi-Arf) was originally in-line with her actual wolf-to-human age (IIRC she was a cub when Fate took her in, so when she was reborn as a familiar, her initial humanoid appearance was that of a child corresponding to her wolf age). After Fate got stronger and when she was sent out to do her mother's tidings, Arf took on the "Big Arf" form to help out better in battles.

[Keroko]

Ported from the manga thread:

Originally Posted by BPHaru

I think "unnecessary" is a better word. In my opinion you can develop the same (pseudo)plot with 1/3 of the actual cast of Strikers series and half of the episodes getting a better series for the fans, but probably less income.

I can get the same pseudo plot with A's with only 1/2 of the cast as well. The fact that I can rewrite it doesn't make those characters that I ditch unnecessary.

Originally Posted by BPHaru

but at the other hand were probably complaining about the excess of military issues, useless characters and complete filler episodes, whose in my opinion are big problems. If you want to remove something from the show "to make it better" I think they should start by prioritizing those points.

And you're right. Those are major points that would need to be looked at in a rewrite. However, that doesn't mean that we should ignore the other relevant scenarios. One of the main priorities for example is the complaint that Erio and Caro weren't developed so well. And who do we need to develop them? Fate.

As we have discussed before, the way the StrikerS plot was set up, as far as relationships go the story was supposed to have been about the relationship between Fate taking care of Erio and Caro, and Nanoha struggling to take care of Vivio. This is evident in the final battles, where it was quite clearly Fate/Erio/Caro and Nanoha/Vivio. Ergo, one of the main priorities would be to have Fate with Erio and Caro, so you can see their bond and have the final battle create more meaning.

What this means is simple: Less Fate/Nanoha/Vivio, more Fate/Erio/Caro. The relationship between Fate and Vivio mattered nothing in the final battle, so really apart from a few token NanoFate 'daaaaw' scenes, there really is no need to concentrate on this, and in fact only works counterproductive.

[Nina.Wolken]

Originally Posted by Keroko

What this means is simple: Less Fate/Nanoha/Vivio, more Fate/Erio/Caro. The relationship between Fate and Vivio mattered nothing in the final battle, so really apart from a few token NanoFate 'daaaaw' scenes, there really is no need to concentrate on this, and in fact only works counterproductive.

I agree that there was maybe not enough of Erio/Caro/Fate scenes in StS the anime, but there was plenty of those in the manga and the soundstages. There was even a full soundstage dedicated to Nanoha spending time with Vivio and raising her on her own, mixed with track about Caro/ Erio and Fate worrying about their bonds and how they should interacted with each others.
Eventually, by the end of StS they all find an answer and made a real step forward. Just listen to SSX, even Caro and Erio's colleague speak of Fate as their mother and nobody object.
I think they made a pretty decent job on that aspect .

As for Fate/Vivio moments, they were also justified by the fact that Nanoha was just unable to take care of Vivio by herself. Fate is skilled when it comes to children (as said Subaru, she already got a lot of experience due to Caro and Erio) and she is Nanoha's best friend. Plus when you think that they already lived together at that time, it only makes sens that she spent time with Vivio...
It would have been strange in the other hand not to make them interact, at least a bit. And I personnaly don't think that we saw too much of them together .

[BPHaru]

Originally Posted by Keroko

I can get the same pseudo plot with A's with only 1/2 of the cast as well. The fact that I can rewrite it doesn't make those characters that I ditch unnecessary.

The main difference is that A's doesn't have people concurrently complaining about the same stuffs. So if they like it, leave it as it is.

Originally Posted by Keroko

And you're right. Those are major points that would need to be looked at in a rewrite. However, that doesn't mean that we should ignore the other irrelevant scenes. One of the main priorities for example is the complaint that Erio and Caro weren't developed so well. And who do we need to develop them? Fate.

As we have discussed before, the way the StrikerS plot was set up, as far as relationships go the story was supposed to have been about the relationship between Fate taking care of Erio and Caro, and Nanoha struggling to take care of Vivio. This is evident in the final battles, where it was quite clearly Fate/Erio/Caro and Nanoha/Vivio. Ergo, one of the main priorities would be to have Fate with Erio and Caro, so you can see their bond and have the final battle create more meaning.

What this means is simple: Less Fate/Nanoha/Vivio, more Fate/Erio/Caro. The relationship between Fate and Vivio mattered nothing in the final battle, so really apart from a few token NanoFate 'daaaaw' scenes, there really is no need to concentrate on this, and in fact only works counterproductive

Erio and Caro weren't very important for the plot, and it seems like your average fans don't feel the necessity to involve them too, but Subaru and Teana at the other side were fine, so you may as well shaft the first two characters if you want and take another route to show Fate's maternal abilities, for example just with Vivio, along with many other possibilities. Anyway I'll not start a debate about a possible scenario without 2/3 of the actual cast of Strikers and discuss every detail of it, since this is never going to happen.

The Happy Family plot was one of the few good things of Strikers, or at least one of the most enjoyed by your average fan and it was one of the most representative things of the whole series as an image. It showed us how the bonds of friendship and love between Nanoha developed from when they were nine, this is one of the main points of the series in my opinion and removing that would be a great error and not very appreciated by the fans. So if something works leave it as it is, fix the problems with a course of actions that doesn't affect the qualities.

Cuídense y sigan sonriendo

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Keroko

What this means is simple: Less Fate/Nanoha/Vivio, more Fate/Erio/Caro. The relationship between Fate and Vivio mattered nothing in the final battle, so really apart from a few token NanoFate 'daaaaw' scenes, there really is no need to concentrate on this, and in fact only works counterproductive.

After some thought - You have to remember, Vivio took a liking to Fate as well. It would seem kind of awkward to not have any Fate/Vivio moments(Referring to the scene with Lindy) considering the events that took place before it. Unless you intend they discard the other parts as well, I don't really see the need to discard that particular one. Afterall, it was a few minutes at most. Caro and Erio needed more focus, but that was impeded by several factors which could have been avoided. In short, there are far too many things in StrikerS that lacked a purpose to only blame a single thing.

[Keroko]

I'm not blaming a single thing, I have already admitted several times that there is a myrad of things that are responsible. However, denying that the excessive NanoFate is among those things as hypocritical. I'm not saying that NanoFate should disappear, I'm just saying that just as there were several training scenes that got in the way of screentime for character development, there were several NanoFate (or in the case in question, Fate/Vivio) scenes that got in the way.

Pinning Fate to Vivio and showing little to no Fate/Erio/Caro made the final battle feel odd. The final battle was all about Nanoha saving Vivio and Fate getting the strength she needed from the kids she raised. The later was weakly present because we never really gotten to see the relationship between the three, and the former had no Fate at all, thereby rendering all the Fate/Vivio scenes largely irrelevant, as it was all about Nanoha saving Vivio.

As for the scene in question, it was nearly two minutes. As an editor, I used to claw to get those few seconds I needed to make an episode fit. A scene of nearly two minutes is a considerable time when you're working with limited timeframes. Considering the situation, I would have prioritized the villains in screentime. Lord knows they need every single second they can get.

[BPHaru]

Originally Posted by Keroko

I'm not blaming a single thing, I have already admitted several times that there is a myrad of things that are responsible. However, denying that the excessive NanoFate is among those things as hypocritical. I'm not saying that NanoFate should disappear, I'm just saying that just as there were several training scenes that got in the way of screentime for character development, there were several NanoFate (or in the case in question, Fate/Vivio) scenes that got in the way.

I think developing the bonds of Nanoha/Fate/Vivio family was one of the main points of Strikers, if you sacrifice those scenes to develop secondary characters then are those secondary characters who are getting in the way. If you want to give them some character development, first think fit they are necessary for the plot, if you're secure about it, then start cropping for what the fans don't like.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Pinning Fate to Vivio and showing little to no Fate/Erio/Caro made the final battle feel odd. The final battle was all about Nanoha saving Vivio and Fate getting the strength she needed from the kids she raised. The later was weakly present because we never really gotten to see the relationship between the three, and the former had no Fate at all, thereby rendering all the Fate/Vivio scenes largely irrelevant, as it was all about Nanoha saving Vivio.

Fate's part was just fine in my opinion, so was Nanoha's, but it had been better if they had chosen to bring the two of them together to emphasize their bond with Vivio, but since they put a bunch of villains it wasn't possible and we got this.
Also, making the battles indoors was a major mistake too.

Originally Posted by Keroko

As for the scene in question, it was nearly two minutes. As an editor, I used to claw to get those few seconds I needed to make an episode fit. A scene of nearly two minutes is a considerable time when you're working with limited timeframes. Considering the situation, I would have prioritized the villains in screentime. Lord knows they need every single second they can get.

I think you're fighting for a few minutes of something that the public adored when you can easily get a pair of hours of screentime from whole episodes.

Cuídate y sigue sonriendo

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Keroko

I'm not blaming a single thing, I have already admitted several times that there is a myrad of things that are responsible. However, denying that the excessive NanoFate is among those things as hypocritical. I'm not saying that NanoFate should disappear, I'm just saying that just as there were several training scenes that got in the way of screentime for character development, there were several NanoFate (or in the case in question, Fate/Vivio) scenes that got in the way.

You may have mentioned other factors, but you're still making NanoFate your main focus. 7arcs was baffled with what they wanted to do with StrikerS and because of this, they did a little bit of everything, but not enough of most things. Subaru waking Teana up via. fondling her breasts certainly was unnecessary, but hey, they did it anyways. There are dozens more instances that totally had no point to the premise, but atleast it gave the fans something to talk about. StrikerS still could have been a great series with all those extra elements, if only the scripting took a different path. With that, I'll revert back to my prior statement - 7arcs should not have amassed such a character cast on such short notice. Some of these characters should have been fleshed out in previous sequels before directing themselves towards StrikerS.

[Comartemis]

Aw, not this again.

*Picks up Haru, Demi, and Kero by the collars and chucks them into the relationship thread*

[Keroko]

I'm going to stop responding to Haru now. I was hoping for a discussion on the editing of the series, but as usual any conversation with Haru degenerates into the canonicity and strength of NanoFate, something which I promised not to debate with him ever again.

Just one thing Haru: You can't expect that freeing up time in the 4th episode automatically makes the 16th run better, episodic editing doesn't work that way. Your way of editing works for movies, but not for series. For series, you have to look at each individual episode and wonder 'which scenes are needed?' 'what do these scenes add?' 'can I remove this scene?' 'if I place this here, what relevance does it have to the event X?'

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

I agree that there was maybe not enough of Erio/Caro/Fate scenes in StS the anime, but there was plenty of those in the manga and the soundstages. There was even a full soundstage dedicated to Nanoha spending time with Vivio and raising her on her own, mixed with track about Caro/ Erio and Fate worrying about their bonds and how they should interacted with each others.
Eventually, by the end of StS they all find an answer and made a real step forward. Just listen to SSX, even Caro and Erio's colleague speak of Fate as their mother and nobody object.
I think they made a pretty decent job on that aspect .

Personally, I believe they got the order mixed up at times. Scenes that are important to the plot belong in the anime, and the fanservice to the manga and Sound Stages. Such as chapter 9, which has Erio development, Caro development and even foreshadowing on Subaru's status as a Cyborg. That was one chapter that really should have been in the anime, as it added so many things.

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

As for Fate/Vivio moments, they were also justified by the fact that Nanoha was just unable to take care of Vivio by herself. Fate is skilled when it comes to children (as said Subaru, she already got a lot of experience due to Caro and Erio) and she is Nanoha's best friend. Plus when you think that they already lived together at that time, it only makes sens that she spent time with Vivio...

I don't mind Fate helping Nanoha taking care of Vivio, what I do mind is practically dropping Erio and Caro in order to take care of Vivio with Nanoha, which is the impression one gets when watching the anime.

I've always been of the opinion that Fate should have taken more of a mentor stance. More teaching Nanoha to take care of Vivio (which, really, is a vault of NanoFate fanservice) and less taking care of Vivio herself.

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

And I personnaly don't think that we saw too much of them together .

Naw, we didn't, but when I commented on Fate tending to have useless screentime in StrikerS, that was the first scene that sprung to mind. Mostly because it was long, and didn't add anything.

Originally Posted by Demi.

You may have mentioned other factors, but you're still making NanoFate your main focus.

I'm making it my main focus because there are claims that the NanoFate had nothing to do with it. If you want me to type a list of things that were wrong, I'm glad to do so, but in the end all that will be contested as not belonging on the list, and thus, receive the main focus, is the NanoFate. It's not entirely my fault that this becomes the main focus. you easily say 'well, you have a point' or 'no, I don't agree' and leave it at that, but if you contest and say 'no, you're wrong and here's why' then the one who is making NanoFate the focus is not me, but you.

It has happened more times then I can count that what was meant to be a simple side-comment about NanoFate got drawn out of proportion into a full-blown debate. More often then not by Haru, who just can't any comment, no matter how small, about NanoFate slide.

Originally Posted by Demi.

With that, I'll revert back to my priot comment - 7arcs should not have amassed such a character cast on such short notice. Some of these characters should have been fleshed out in previous sequels before directing themselves towards StrikerS.

That is another way to handle it. A good one too, in my opinion.

Only problem is: Fleshing them out before StrikerS means that there won't be any Aces. In other words: No Fate either.

[BPHaru]

Originally Posted by Keroko

I don't mind Fate helping Nanoha taking care of Vivio, what I do mind is practically dropping Erio and Caro in order to take care of Vivio with Nanoha, which is the impression one gets when watching the anime.

And that's what I said it's a mostly a mistake. There were plenty of instances to develop them as we have said, you don't need to change the very welcomed NanoFate scenes for the ones you're proposing if you can get whole episodes of screentime if you remove the boring filler. You can also remove many characters, so you didn't really need to include them and develop them all sacrificing precious screen time.

Originally Posted by Keroko

I've always been of the opinion that Fate should have taken more of a mentor stance. More teaching Nanoha to take care of Vivio (which, really, is a vault of NanoFate fanservice) and less taking care of Vivio herself.

Considering the progressive development of their relationship until the point of sharing what we can call as the life of a "married couple", it makes sense that both of them take care of Vivio, it would be weird otherwise, and was something accepted for the fans, so I think it was the correct thing to do.

Cuídense y sigan sorniendo

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Keroko

I'm making it my main focus because there are claims that the NanoFate had nothing to do with it. If you want me to type a list of things that were wrong, I'm glad to do so, but in the end all that will be contested as not belonging on the list, and thus, receive the main focus, is the NanoFate. It's not entirely my fault that this becomes the main focus. you easily say 'well, you have a point' or 'no, I don't agree' and leave it at that, but if you contest and say 'no, you're wrong and here's why' then the one who is making NanoFate the focus is not me, but you.

Well, I'm merely stating a opinion. When you claim NanoFate as recycled material, I tend to disagree. As I don't know what I would have done without those moments to enjoy.

That is another way to handle it. A good one too, in my opinion.

Only problem is: Fleshing them out before StrikerS means that there won't be any Aces. In other words: No Fate either.

That's questionable. I mean, if Fate takes care of Erio and Caro, she's kind of a needed element. The same as Nanoha is a needed element for Subaru as she rescued her when she was a child. They can delve deeper into each characters backstory before they meet the aces, but that's not the only thing that needed improvement.

And either way, as I've said, so long as Fate continues to stay a part of the franchise, I don't mind if the focus Isn't directed towards her from time to time. More focus on other characters earlier would have opened more moments for the instances I truly enjoyed in StrikerS later.