Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 16 Discussion / Poll

[panzerfan]

War_Lord does raise some merit even if he'd be insulting the dead(?) and obviously many who died giving birth.

The sensation of the whole pregnancy process isn't really something that I think should be trivialized or merely rationalize. If you don't even have the rights to have a child, it would make you a bigot for saying that a real-life person is retarded for childbirth. Of course, this is a fictionalized situation, but at least keep in mind the fact that childbirth can be fatal today is real.

[SwiftStrike]

this episode was the saddest out of all the key ones(just my opinion) primarily due to the fact that nagisa had a huge character development/main character role.

the mood changed in the middle from a happy reunion(i bet they did that on purpose...the final gathering) to something else.
so touching, had to give this a 10/10

[Reckoner]

I believe I rated this episode a 9 when I saw it, just haven't posted yet.

Last episode I was criticizing Nagisa for being too selfish, and Tomoya for not having the balls to grab hold of his situation. Looks like I was correct, now Tomoya's life is in shambles.

Yes, Nagisa wanted to have her child, I understand that. However, that is just trying to excuse her naivety/stupidity, or what ever word you want to use.

Anyhow this episode did get me emotional, and I am very interested to see how this death will affect Tomoya. After Story is about to get a whole lot more interesting.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Last episode I was criticizing Nagisa for being too selfish, and Tomoya for not having the balls to grab hold of his situation. Looks like I was correct, now Tomoya's life is in shambles.

Okay. What.

She wants to have a baby and she's selfish?

Tomoya just wants to make his wife happy, and you think he's doing something WRONG?

God forbid you ever get married.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Yes, Nagisa wanted to have her child, I understand that. However, that is just trying to excuse her naivety/stupidity, or what ever word you want to use.

I can't say anything to this that won't get me banned.

[panzerfan]

Well, at least it is clear that the decision to have a child went into fruition with some sense talked into the people involved. I honestly am more than impressed with Akio and Sanae regarding how they recognized what their roles are at this point of their daughter's life. Akio has shown maturity by not letting his own instinctive feelings and emotions intervene with the logical course of actions, and Sanae supported the couple while ebbing them to mature into parental roles.

@Proto: unfortunately, the best-laid out planned in this take by KyoAni became moot due to the heavy snowfall and the early birth...

[Proto]

She wants to have a baby and she's selfish?

She could have chosen to be at a hospital where life support services were readily available. Heck she could just have had a Caesarean section. Not 100% foolproof, but increasing your chances of survival never hurts.

Then again we need the drama. Not that it is a bad thing. On the contrary, this conversation has killed 5 catgirls already.

[Master Chibi]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

What Nagisa wanted was to have a child with her Tomoya-kun. For it to be THEIR child.

Yeah, but it was kind of a given that they'd make the girl suffer for it.

I mean she couldn't complete high school for a while, but she's supposed to be healthy enough to give birth?

I mean I'm not trying to downplay it, but it was a given that she was going to kick the bucket ages ago the way they went about it (aka fucking horrible pacing, too little too late on making me care enough for them to have a baby together, and putting in more shit to coerce drama out of the situation then is really necessary.).

Her entire 'illness' is this god awful crutch the show has constantly fallen back on to squeeze more out of you anyway. They never tell you what it is she has, where she got it, why she got it, if there's ever been a cure for it, nothing. It's just this nameless evil they can utilize to their heart's content when they need to.

:\

[Sorrow-K]

Originally Posted by Proto

She could have chosen to be at a hospital where life support services were readily available. Heck she could just have had a Caesarean section. Not 100% foolproof, but increasing your chances of survival never hurts.

Then again we need the drama. Not that it is a bad thing. On the contrary, this conversation has killed 5 catgirls already.

Did you watch the episode? She conceded. She was going to go to the hospital, but they were snowed in.

It really wasn't anyone's fault, it was simply bad luck. I certainly don't think it's fair to label this as forced drama when nothing that happened was the result of a bad or unjustified decision made by any one character. Given the cruel twist of fate, and the fact that if just one thing was different with the delivery, she may have survived, it could almost be seen as fate that she died that day.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Okay. What.

She wants to have a baby and she's selfish?

Tomoya just wants to make his wife happy, and you think he's doing something WRONG?

God forbid you ever get married.

Yes, she is being selfish for not thinking of those who are worried about her. Unfortunately if you die, you will have an effect on those around you. That's why people should not treat their lives lightly.

As for Tomoya, I'm not doubting his intentions, but rather his logic. He felt, he even knew this pregnancy was not a good thing for Nagisa, hence the talk with Sanae he had where he was wondering if she disliked him. But because he refuses to impose his will, I'm sure he rather have Nagisa alive than to continue with the pregnancy, he ends up screwed in the end.

Sometimes when you love someone, you need to make a choice that will not necessarily make them happy, but it will be for their own good. It is like the parent who grounds their child for not doing well in school. Sure the kid is not happy, but in the long run, he will have learned a lesson that will be far better for his future.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I can't say anything to this that won't get me banned.

This is just a show, a cartoon. I can see this is your golden egg, but chill out, don't get so personal.

[Master Chibi]

Nah, it's totally forced drama that it magically snowed on the day she was going to give birth, and that the aide somehow made it to her house exactly when it mattered in that snow but several 'doctors' couldn't.

[Proto]

Did you watch the episode? She conceded. She was going to go to the hospital, but they were snowed in.

Normally on cases like Nagisa's you have the mother interned in the hospital for a whole month before the expected pregnancy happens. But well, I'll concede that we weren't given much information in that respect and I'm not really sure about how public hospital services work in Japan either.

and that the aide somehow made it to her house exactly when it mattered in that snow but several 'doctors' couldn't.
!

Well, most surely all the doctors that could have been competent for helping in labor were snowed in themselves at the hospital, and the help of a general doctor isn't exactly much better than what an experienced midwife can do.

So my qualm isn't exactly how they acted during the labor day, but their preparation for it during the previous month.

[destiny4everlove]

Episode 16

-The girl from the imaginary world is back…mmm...and this time I really felt her loneliness , maybe it was because of the way in which she asked the robot to stay with her.

-Nagisa fully pregnant was so cute!!! She looked so adorable~

-Tomoya feeling so responsible and guilty for Nagisa’s life or death delivery was very painful to watch, and even more painful was seeing him thinking that Nagisa would be happier if she had not met him. Sometimes when we have to face very difficult and painful situations there is a phrase that becomes almost a part of us, this phrase is “what if”, and this is exactly what is happening with Tomoya.

-Pregnant Nagisa with her pink winter outfit was so adorable!!

-Tomoya smelling Nagisa on her dango squishy pillow was so sweet and touching.

-Sunohara’s reaction to pregnant Nagisa was funny and so Sunohara.

-Yay! Kotomi-chan! I was so happy to see her again.

-Yay! Yoshino has started singing again! I bet Mei-chan will be one very happy fangirl.

-Okasaki-guy! LOL! I wonder why Sunohara never called Tomoya by his name.

-Could it be that the hidden world Kotomi’s parents were researching about and that now she is researching about it too is the world where the girl and robot live?

-Could it be that Nagisa’s play and Tomoya are both linked to the hidden world? Or maybe to the girl and robot’s world?!!!

-It was so wonderful seeing all the gang together again! And I was so glad and relieved that the reason why they got together in this episode was a happy one.

-“If I interfere with this construction, would Nagisa be able to stay well?”…I thought the same thing Tomoya. Nagisa’s forest being destroyed did not give me a good feeling at all.

-“I’m coming to hate this city” Nooooooo!! Tomoya is starting to hate the city again.

-Nagisa being in so much pain during labor was so difficult to watch!!!

-Hearing Shio-chan's first cry was so touching!!

-Even while dying, Nagisa thought of someone else before her. She was worried that she made her baby go through extra trouble!! Nagisa you are so great!!

-Tomoya’s desperately trying to keep Nagisa from “sleeping” by talking to her was so heartbreaking!! Seeing Tomoya’s great pain, his eyes full of tears, it was so sad to watch!!! The scene of Nagisa dying was so heartbreaking and beautiful at the same time!!!

-As a Tomoya x Nagisa huge fan (they are my OTP in the whole anime world!), watching all those new, sweet and amazing Tomoya x Nagisa moments made Nagisa’s death even more painful. And then all those old, but oh so loved Tomoya x Nagisa moments from the previous season was like putting salt on a open wound!!

-Tomoya not calling Nagisa at the bottom of the hill and wishing to have never met her really broke my heart!! That was a very selfish wish on Tomoya’s part, I understand why he did it though. As for me, I would not have made that wish. The pain of losing someone you love is great, but the pain of never knowing that person at all is even greater, of course that IMHO.

-This episode let us see two of the most important events in human life, the beginning of it and the end of it, two events very distant and very close at the same time.

-Nagisa’s death was very sad, painful and heartbreaking for me. My favorite Clannad girl died, the half of my # 1 OTP died and with that my # 1 OTP died too, but even though I felt very sad I didn’t cry as much as I expected to cry before watching this episode. A couple of tears (and I do mean a couple) rolled down my cheeks but that was it. Maybe it was because I knew about Nagisa’s death before watching this episode (yes, unfortunately I was spoiled about it), or maybe it was because of the music, whatever the reason was, this episode didn’t make me bawl as episode 14 of Clannad or episodes of other series have made me do.

[panzerfan]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

Nah, it's totally forced drama that it magically snowed on the day she was going to give birth, and that the aide somehow made it to her house exactly when it mattered in that snow but several 'doctors' couldn't.

I'll have to refute by saying that I live in Canada, where there's universal medical care but you'd be waiting long enough on a waiting list to get your operation done that you very well can die waiting~

The only thing magical is how you can have enough snow in that kind of snowfall to totally shut off the city, and that's the only missing piece I get out of your statement. Honestly though, there's been civil suits where heavy snowfall has indirectly led to death due to inability for emergency services to respond.

Of course, it is kind of 'forced' given that if snow starts to pile up, the wisest course of action is to have Nagisa checked into hospital immediately, and if I really want to be a prick, Tomoya should've at least ask Nagisa to wait it out a few months before they have a go at procreation*

*Ask yourself this though: can you honest expect people, especially in their 20s, to think logically about putting off sex first? In addition, do people really rise above expectation and become the exception?

(Klashikari has a point)


Whatever it is, afterthought is just that, afterthought~ be glad that at least the audience might start thinking about all of this before they go off and think of the making a baby eventually.

[Klashikari]

And this problem leads to another one: any hospital would hardly let a woman stay 1 month there as a preemptive measure, even if her life is at stake.
Place and ressource are absolutely not expandable as people might think. (Fees and ressources are already that expensive, even if most are taken care by the government. This is the reason why patients are hospitalized only when it is considered necessary and why they are kicked out as soon as possible)

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

Nah, it's totally forced drama that it magically snowed on the day she was going to give birth, and that the aide somehow made it to her house exactly when it mattered in that snow but several 'doctors' couldn't.

It does not matter how she dies, the death is just a plot device, albeit a major one. If you want to criticize the show, or the characters, I would do it for more tangible reasons. Ok, it is unlikely that the snow would happen to like that on that very day, but hey life is random. Things happen all the time that would not have happened if one single detail was changed.

If you have recently seen the movie Benjamin Button, I feel they show this very well in the scene

Spoiler for For those who have not seen Benjamin Button, do not click:

where Benjamin's lover gets hit by a car, and she would have made it out OK if it were not for all these little details.

[Master Chibi]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

I'll have to refute by saying that I live in Canada, where there's universal medical care but you'd be waiting long enough on a waiting list to get your operation done that you very well can die waiting~

Too bad Canada's weather forecast for the entire year is snow with 100% chance of snow with the evening closing in with more damn snow.

The only thing magical is how you can have enough snow in that kind of snowfall to totally shut off the city, and that's the only missing piece I get out of your statement. Honestly though, there's been civil suits where heavy snowfall has indirectly led to death due to inability for emergency services to respond.

Well again, the aide / midwife / whoever she was had no problem getting to their place, but noone else could do the same? At all?

That wasn't a blizzard they were stuck in. It was a plentiful amount of snow, but I refuse to believe it would have kept everyone else at bay.

Of course, it is kind of 'forced' given that if snow starts to pile up, the wisest course of action is to have Nagisa checked into hospital immediately, and if I really want to be a prick, Tomoya should've at least ask Nagisa to wait it out a few months before they have a go at procreation*

Well there's a MILLION things you could point out with what went wrong and how blaming it on the snow is pure bullshit. If my wife's EXISTENCE is on the line, I'd do alot more to make sure of her well being then being fucked the way they did.

And realistically speaking, they shouldn't have had kids. I KNOW you really want to, and I know it's a symbol of love and all that wonderfully fluffy shit, but when your wife is bed ridden for months and months on end (with an evil nameless illness noone knows a damn thing about), the last thing you should do is shove your shit in her so she can carry around the biggest health risk and act of pain and physical labor women end up going through in their entire life.

I mean when Sanae sat down with Tomoya to tell him about it I was like:

NO WAY, REALLY? I AM SO TAKEN ABACK BY THIS NEWS, I WOULD HAVE NEVER KNOWN.

Of course we don't know how long they waited to boink each other, but we can thank the show's (lack of) pacing for that.

*Ask yourself this though: can you honest expect people, especially in their 20s, to think logically about putting off sex first? In addition, do people really rise above expectation and become the exception?

Well hey, now he can live the rest of his life knowing that his wife dead because he fucked her. Good for him!

Whatever it is, afterthought is just that, afterthought~ be glad that at least the audience might start thinking about all of this before they go off and think of the making a baby eventually.

They should have just made this into an after school special.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

And this problem leads to another one: any hospital would hardly let a woman stay 1 month there as a preemptive measure, even if her life is at stake.

Place and resources are absolutely not expandable as people might think. (Fees and resources are already that expensive, even if most are taken care by the government. This is the reason why patients are hospitalized only when it is considered necessary and why they are kicked out as soon as possible)

Considering the condition she was in, even staying for a week would have been completely feasible. Given who Nagisa is, and the condition of her body overall, that apartment was the absolute worst place for her to be. Gooooooood job.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

If you want to criticize the show, or the characters, I would do it for more tangible reasons.

You're not me.

Ok, it is unlikely that the snow would happen to like that on that very day, but hey life is random. Things happen all the time that would not have happened if one single detail was changed.

This isn't real life.

[panzerfan]

(Master Chibi gave me something to laugh about over an episode that I baaawwwed about, and for that I have to hand over a toast. Prosit.)

Although... one should well know that there's something wrong with stating that

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

Well hey, now he can live the rest of his life knowing that his wife dead because he fucked her. Good for him!

, given how that just that such an act alone does not bring about death from labor.

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

Considering the condition she was in, even staying for a week would have been completely feasible.

I am assuming here that Nagi the Midwife is actually part of the neighborhood the Furukawas are part of.

The thing is, would Tomoya, on his salary, have been able to afford the hospital bill even for a stay that brief? I'm not sure how things are in Japan, where they at least HAVE healthcare, but in the Philippines the fees are expensive; it's well beyond the means of a blue or white-collar worker to pay for even a night in a private ward (can go from 20,000 pesos to 50,000 pesos a night in a good hospital like Makati Medical, for reference 1 USD = 47 PHP). Even on the so-called 'charity' or public wards, the family still has to provide EVERYTHING ELSE, meaning the anaesthesia, saline solutions, and whatever else is needed for the birthing, and all those quickly add up.

Nevermind the fact that Nagisa going into labor prematurely literally killed off whatever plans they made. It really is unpredictable. Can't imagine how I'd handle it when my time comes...

[Master Chibi]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

(Master Chibi gave me something to laugh about over an episode that I baaawwwed about, and for that I have to hand over a toast. Prosit.)

I did?

given how that just that such an act alone does not bring about death from labor.

Hey, it could have been really rough, or Nagisa might be quite the animal in bed, you never know.

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

I am assuming here that Nagi the Midwife is actually part of the neighborhood the Furukawas are part of.

Part of the neighborhood = Getting out of her residence and getting over to her residence. Also, there should have been ample time for them to get to the hospital given the nature of snowfall.

That is unless snow in Clannad is equivalent to God sneezing or something of the sort.

The thing is, would Tomoya, on his salary, have been able to afford the hospital bill even for a stay that brief? I'm not sure how things are in Japan, where they at least HAVE healthcare, but in the Philippines the fees are expensive; it's well beyond the means of a blue or white-collar worker to pay for even a night in a private ward (can go from 20,000 pesos to 50,000 pesos a night in a good hospital like Makati Medical, for reference 1 USD = 47 PHP). Even on the so-called 'charity' or public wards, the family still has to provide EVERYTHING ELSE, meaning the anaesthesia, saline solutions, and whatever else is needed for the birthing, and all those quickly add up.

Well would he have been able to afford to have the baby to begin with? Babies cost upwards of 10k - 20k nowadays, don't they? If they had already decided to have the baby at the hospital, something tells me finances weren't really an issue the show was going to bother tackling with.

Nevermind the fact that Nagisa going into labor prematurely literally killed off whatever plans they made. It really is unpredictable. Can't imagine how I'd handle it when my time comes...

Keep rewatching this episode and see what it does to you.

[kk2extreme]

how much is the funeral for nagisa?