2013-02-18, 21:17 | Link #281 | |
The Unpronounceable
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Clock Tower
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Also, master of deceptions? More like master of baiting. And bitching. |
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2013-02-18, 21:19 | Link #282 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Sadly, it's not anything that they actually use again. Have we seen or heard anything more from Orussia, since?
Now, it would have been cool if Toreida had done the sensible thing, and unleashed the Mariage on his enemies in Orussia. Then the planet might have called off its civil war long enough to call in the TSAB. This would have shown us how the TSAB deals with charter planets AND introduced us to the ground-level of an entirely new world. Quote:
I don't think there's anything wrong with Fate as a character, though I do agree that the writers have not used her well. ESPECIALLY in regards to giving her more screentime than strictly necessary. The Lotus Eater Dream in the Reinforce Battle was... well, did it really need to be there? They wasted a perfect opportunity to use a Lotus Eater lost logia in a later plot; it's not like they needed to wrap up "the adoption" subplot in that season. And was it even necessary for advancing that subplot? Quote:
I suppose it's your own fault to be born into a country that has running water and internet services, as opposed to a third world country where you need to wipe with leaves. Characters cannot affect the writers' decisions. It's up to the writer to make the best use of a character concept, and not all of them are up to the task. The same concept can be used amazingly or poorly, depending on the writer. Even a character who makes absolutely terrible decisions and has a generally reprehensible personality can be interesting... We call them "villains"! Just look at Presea. Quote:
Sometimes character development isn't presenting a new situation and having a character's personality change in reaction. Character development can also be accomplished simply by introducing something "new" about a character that was always there, but had never been seen before. (Indeed, that's how it all STARTS; a character is introduced, and then developed by all of the things we learn about them from that point.) For the most part, the characters in this franchise are flat and boring precisely because we never, ever learn anything new about the people they already ARE. Yuuno is a prime example, but we could also learn more about Lindy, Amy or Charim by seeing glimpses of their past, or watching them do their jobs, or seeing any other hobbies they have besides drinking tea. Quote:
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2013-02-18, 21:22 | Link #283 | |
Manus ad Ferrum
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Costa Rica
Age: 33
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Maybe we focus this the wrong way. Characters had to serve a purpose. At least side characters or secondary characters, while the main character while also serving a purpose had to be the ones that actually make us enter the story. Why it think the first seasons did it better was because they did focus on characters and they let us to why we should care. StrikerS tries to make the plot and tons of subplots do the same and fails for lack of time and excess of elements.
Hayate is fine, but her role as plot device in A’s was taken as a main character when, all things consider, she didn’t really matter that much. She was the reason why the Wolkenritter care enough to do bad things and yet her role is generic as all hell and could be anything really. Because she was a plot device. Then by the end she being a magical girl was really unnecessary and just add to have more little girls in different costumes. That way she was set right out the bat as a not good character. StrikerS then set hers away, clearly not knowing what to do with her and failing to make her more interesting as she ends doing little to nothing. Quote:
But maybe you are right, could be my interpretation of the characters as well as could be you looking too much in to really so little. I mean, why not?
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2013-02-18, 21:33 | Link #284 | ||
Ass connoisseur
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Florida
Age: 37
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Yet a character concept that was built poorly will have already failed. And that's what a vast majority of characters from this series suffer from. A character is the manifestation of a writers imagination. They are not their own being, so yes, when done poorly, it is their fault for not being able to garner the fans interest with their personality, looks, development, or whatever else viewers look for in a character. Most of the truly popular characters are characters who had a great first impression or at the very least kept the viewer interested to know more. You can call unpopular characters whatever you like, but if they don't appeal to fans then they don't deserve the screen time. And while some people may consider Precia interesting, I certainly didn't. And she's absolutely not favorite character material. I've liked many villains from different anime. Which is not the Nanoha franchises strong suit. Quote:
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2013-02-18, 21:35 | Link #285 | |
Left for TFF
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After all, the Sound Stages are the reason that Cinque managed to avoid the same fate that befell Tre, Uno, Quattro and Sette with them in prison... Not to mention that Sette is undergoing rehab right now to fix what Quattro did to her... There's Dieci, the first of the Numbers to feel remorse over what she was doing when she looked at Vivio... Not to mention Nove felt worried that she and her sisters were going to be treated like nothing more than weapons when all was said and done, which was why she refused to give up against Teana until the end... Or how Wendi flat out said she wanted to just have fun, blow stuff up and just go wherever Nove was going, since they were only a few months apart. Then there's Otto and Deed, a couple of chatterboxes that have no problem with teasing their older sisters. Sein's fun, perverted and a bit immature, not to mention that she gets teased a lot by her other sisters... Cinque and Tre both worried about Sette's development and were wondering what they could do to fix what Quattro did to her (Sette). Uno's snarky and pretty good with a clipper and helped keep the others in line. And Due wasn't anyone special, surely Jail didn't ask for a bottle of wine to give her a burial after her death, now did he? And there certainly haven't been scenes of the N2R group adjusting to family life with a father. Nope, we must all be looking into too much from too little.
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2013-02-18, 21:38 | Link #286 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Hayate was much more than a plot device, she was a major influence on the plot.
The story would have been very different if Hayate had been more like a typical master. She shapes the entire story by being the kind of girl who's simply happy having a family, and who doesn't mind staying crippled when the alternative is to hurt people. Even when she was manipulated into going berserk, it WAS -- again! -- her own decision, and that decision --again!-- had a major impact on the plot. It doesn't matter what kind of power she acquired (or lost) by the end of the season. Or at least, that doesn't effect at all the value she had as a major character throughout the whole story. |
2013-02-18, 21:44 | Link #287 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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And it's not first impressions alone; it's also the last impression, or the whole impression that a viewer is left with by the end of the story. After finishing Final Fantasy 6, you have a much different and stronger impression of Kefka than you did at the beginning of the game. Closer to home, we all have a much different impression of Runessa at the end of SSX than we did after her first scene. Closer still: Nanoha was a very different character in the first couple of episodes. While more than willing to help someone and jump into danger to do so, she wasn't so keen on magic or combat. By the end of the series, Nanoha has developed into a girl who loves magical combat to the point that she's voluntarily going through Training From Hell, and will eventually decide to seek a career as a Magical Combat Instructor. That's the last impression, which is different from the first. Quote:
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2013-02-18, 21:49 | Link #288 | |||||||
Banned
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Got two people to respond to, so gonna try and pare down what I respond to so this isn't super long. :P
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So I think she pulls off "young commander with potential getting her feet wet" fairly well. If she were any stronger (intelligence-wise), I'd feel she was an Instant Expert. Any weaker, and I'd think they were vastly overstating her qualifications ("she's one smart little girl" quoth Genya). Quote:
So I understand that nothing will happen, and I am actually fine with that. I just understand the dynamics behind the decisions, too. Quote:
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And I agree with you that it is the writer's fault if some characters aren't getting enough development. If you bring a character in, and we are supposed to accept them as a main instead of secondary, then you have a duty to develop them sufficiently. Quote:
I think Keroko mentioned something once before, a theory about how that, despite the Sankt Kaiser being a leader and controller of the cradle, things seem to be set up in such a way as to allow someone else to control the Kaiser. In essence, not giving the "leader" a choice. As for how she got to Midchilda, well, it doesn't look as if Gallea won the war. So if they knew they were losing, and Ixpellia went to sleep, then moving her off Gallea and hiding her on another planet, would make sense. Toredia found her and made some mariage, but it appears as if he hid her underneath Marine Garden before his death, since all Runessa could do was utilize the mariage that had been produced. Why he hid her there, I have no idea. Just probably one of his secret areas, I guess. |
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2013-02-18, 22:01 | Link #289 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Which is really the problem with Hayate; putting her in charge wasn't the problem. It's how little they had her DO as a leader while she was on-screen. (Or, for that matter, while she was off-screen.) They could have put anyone other than Hayate in charge, and that character would have been just as badly handled. Quote:
The part about Vivio trying to stand on her own, and Nanoha rushing to catch her anyway, was a great touch on both of their arcs. By contrast, Fate never really spent any time with Erio or Caro, who also didn't really get screen time to focus on their character arcs. Which is a shame, because "Did I really only adopt these kids to use them as weapons" would have been a great plot, and an excellent contrast against Jail's own treatement of his daughters, Lutecia, and Vivio. Not to mention Jail's own plans for Caro and Erio, which likewise never got developed. |
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2013-02-18, 22:03 | Link #290 | |
Manus ad Ferrum
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Costa Rica
Age: 33
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They barely make any effort to be something in the anime, to the point I was making just how they were just look alike from the good ones. And really all those things you say about them are not present in the story or help in any way to develop something. In the end they are just there to be kick, befriend and then part of the family. I sure as hell have problems trying to telling them apart if it wasn’t because they had their names made out of numbers. You see you mention a lot of things that don’t really matter or that I should care because every single one of them are boring as hell. Tre, Sette, Cinque, Uno, Otto, and Deed were just serious. Wendy and Sein were happy. Nove was angry, Quattro was evil, Dieci is not that evil, and Due dies. There you have their roles. Really the rest was not in the anime, so I am is not really important and overall makes their characters no much more of what they are: a bunch of people that is there to fight the good guys. And when characters look more to me as characters than actual people is because they are just roles. Again like Hayate. She doesn’t really does anything in particular to affect the plot. She is nice to the Wolkenritter but to be fair others could be nice to her. She decides to not take the sad ending of the book but others could do the same. You see the reason why I say that is because Hayate doesn’t have much of a personality or a character in A’s. She is nice, good and likes the Wolkenritter that was all she needed to. So really she falls as a plot device.
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2013-02-18, 22:04 | Link #291 | ||
Ass connoisseur
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Florida
Age: 37
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The last impression has little relevance if the character has already crashed prior to that. For instance, most peoples opinion of Kirino are incapable of being anything but negative at this point. As for Nanoha, she changed because she was confronted with a rival, and she was effectively the only real character of the series until then. Nevertheless I did not have a distinct dislike for her as I did with a lot of other characters from the series. Even during those first few episodes. Which were hampered by episodal monster of the week scenarios. No character in the franchise had so little screen time that they were not given the time to garner a fan base, unless they were truly minor. Heck, you don't even need good characterization so long as you have a likable personality. Say what you will, but some characters walk away with this franchise because of the poor likability of the others as well as the masses of new characters thrown in every season. The Nanoha franchise only ever truly had two main characters -- Nanoha and Fate. It's not like Fate magically appeared one day and started to steal everyones screen time. She was there before them. And to note, as far as total screen time goes, I'm certain Nanoha has more overall. Side note: Yes, I know there is Yuuno, but by the end of the first season it was already obvious where the series was heading. Quote:
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2013-02-18, 22:12 | Link #293 | |
Otaku Apprentice
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2013-02-18, 22:16 | Link #294 | ||
Left for TFF
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Okay then. Let's do this then. You want to apply that to the Numbers? Quite frankly, you can apply it to EVERYONE in the series then. Amy, Chrono, Lindy and Fate? Boring group that has nothing major going on and are boring and become a happy family. The Wolkenritter with Hayate? They're not worth anything to the plot other than to be there, get beaten up and befriended, then move on in the story. Einhart? No personality there at all. Quote:
And, Sansker, you fail at being a Nanoha fan if you don't realize that the series uses MULTIPLE sources of information, that is, the manga, the sound stages AND the anime.
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2013-02-18, 22:19 | Link #295 |
GregOS Offline
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Philippines
Age: 36
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Nanya.... Watch your blood pressure....
And I believe we got a follower of Troll-zama here... don't get too baited. he's most likely looking for attention, that he didn't got from his own parents/relatives at home.
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2013-02-18, 22:19 | Link #296 | |
The Unpronounceable
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Clock Tower
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Even series like Bleach and Naruto have other things than just the manga and anime, like Official Data Book and the like. |
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2013-02-18, 22:26 | Link #297 | |
On a mission
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There was no doubt that Fate was integral to season 1. There's a reason why the most notable battle was with Fate while there was not much of a final showdown with Precia. Season 1 was about Nanoha's discovery of the road to self betterment, while helping Fate get back to this path. Thus, examining the mentality of both was critical to making the story work. Granted the movie did fuck up in this area, but if we go series, Fate's time in season 1 is not unwarranted. It would be ludicrous to claim Fate dominated or took up too much screentime in A's either. She was working more with Nanoha, and trying to be like her. But the wolkies received the core development. Now when you get to StrikerS, yes, that's when they didn't know what to do with her and caused problems. But that's not really specific to her. The Lotus Eater Dream while is a matter of pacing is frequently overstated as a way of saying Fate has more screentime. If you really wanted to blame Fate for something, well, I'm just going to point you to ugh... Vivio and that whole dual mama thing. And that's still pretty marginal. In A's though, I rarely hear about people complaining about underdevelopment, since pretty much everyone got to play a decent role of the story. In fact, if you're going for that section, the highlight to me was Nanoha throwing herself against an unassailable Reinforce while Nanoha worked from the outside and Fate working from the inside to try and put up a fight. And that really just fits of their personalities so utterly well. Besides defining her personality, and yes I think the foster parents thing was a bit undercooked, it represents a change in Fate's character that might have been insuated in early A's but not really concrete yet. It's that she's become more independent and concerned about her own hopes and desires. This is a far contrast from Season 1 Fate who was extremely needy and couldn't live without Precia, and arguably she kinda just jumped over to Lindy and Nanoha for dependence. So it's at that point where she finally put away the martyr act and not go "well, I wasn't good enough, and my little sister won't becoming back" Could it have been more concise? Sure, but honestly the tail end of A's actually could have easily filled up with more stuff anyways. It's not like StrikerS where everyone was scrambling just to come up with any semblance of a background.
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2013-02-18, 22:30 | Link #298 | ||
Banned
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Dieci, despite seemingly like she was bad early on, developed into being unsure about where they were going. Nove wanted to see what kind of person their "king" was. As the series progressed, we saw that some of the cyborgs cared about their sisters more than others. There were quite a few characters, which does make it difficult to keep track of some of them. But that doesn't mean there wasn't development, or at least subtle differences to each cyborg. And that doesn't mean that we only saw one side of their personality, either. Quote:
That's where your likeability comes from. It is no accident that the females are the more likable ones, because it is mainly Japanese male otaku watching. That's why Yuuno and Chrono are shipped off. I'm just damned surprised Erio and Vice were in it at all, but Vice has since disappeared and Erio is in a minor role(and no "threat" to the mains). Even Griffith is gone. The kind of toxicity that leads to things like this, and the AKB48 rules, is just something I can't support. If I come across as a little anti-yuri, it is because I see the harm it is causing. The current fanaticism that can't take the idea of a popular female getting together with a male. I don't mind yuri if that's where the plot is heading and it makes sense for the characters. But if the very plot is denied because of fanaticism, then I begin to have a problem with it. |
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2013-02-18, 22:33 | Link #299 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Did they not do that with the Materials, with Dearche being no more powerful than Stern or Levi? Quote:
As a command character with lopsided combat ability, it was easy to reduce Hayate's role to practically nothing... and perhaps even natural to expect, especially from Seven Arcs. I'd be entirely content with Commander Nukes-A-Lot if she had been handled better. But as it is, I'm just not sold on how Hayate's powers shook out after A's. Could she had possibly ended up with a different talent-set that would have fit her better? |
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2013-02-18, 22:34 | Link #300 |
User of the "Fast Draw"
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I'm just going to throw my own discussion into the middle of this .
StrikerS really had a lot of characters who didn't get nearly the development needed. Caro and Erio were just there and then suddenly they had a rivalry going on with Lutecia....completely with nicknames. Did Fate pass along some secret info off-screen that giving your enemy a short nickname is a good battle tactic ? Of course it only got worse when Erio's great rival for the series was a summoned humanoid bug....Lightning squad really didn't get much going on. Really think when you have a cast that large need to plan out better, narrow the focus, or just have a ton more episodes. Have to give StrikerS credit for one thing though, if it wasn't for wanting to check that series out might have missed the first two seasons entirely . But even saying that, would like to see another animated series from this going forward. I mean sure hunting down subbed sound stages are nice, and the mangas out there are fairly good as well. But would still enjoy all the things that make anime enjoyable to watch.
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