2012-11-25, 22:01 | Link #2421 | |
El Psy Congroo
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Within the choice of Steins Gate...
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I was thinking the same thing about this... the Side A semi-final vanguard battle and the Side B quarter-final captain battle may prove this... even if Toki uses her ability and sees that Kuro will get a dora, she will be in a position where she can't do anything to disrupt that flow of events... Saki seems to not been able to disrupt Kasumi either but rather used this to her advantage... Does this means that Kuro's dora magnet and Kasumi's one suit magnet are absolute abilities? So even if Toki uses triple then she will be unable to stop those two from getting their designated tiles so she just have to do something else to win... I was wondering if ever Saki and Kuro play each other... Kuro being the Dragon Lord and Saki being called the one loved by the tiles hence the tile Lord of the Tiles... will Saki be able to get a dora from the dead wall (aka Saki's personal stash of tiles)? but I think that Fujita Pro also used the term The One Loved by the Tiles to Teru, Jindai and Koromo...
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2012-11-25, 22:37 | Link #2422 | ||
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Join Date: Nov 2012
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Even if Kasumi's ability was able to overcome Toki's, though, there is nothing in her ability writeup that says she will draw a winning tile (merely that she'll draw tiles of a certain suit+honors). As a result, there should be no reason why the nine of bamboo gets specifically 'pushed back' as opposed to the next draw that Kasumi gets getting randomized again. Quote:
http://www.fnsna.net/side/?p=1238 Of course, the problem is still Teru's Ea, which we've already noted to have way too much dominance of the board. As for the four kans, it's actually notable that Kuro does not always draw dora (she does, however, shut anyone else from drawing it). She's also never shown to draw more than three of any one dora tile in any of her plays that I remember, so that might be implicitly a limitation to her ability. Also, the red-5 doras that she also tends to draw basically nulls that possibility, and is possibly the reason why she never calls kans (since it could very easily lock her into having 14 doras and being forced to discard one). Just randomly throwing it out there, but the 'Achiga's Captain is a monkey' joke still cracks me up whenever I see it. |
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2012-11-26, 00:12 | Link #2424 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
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There have been some interesting debates lately. So in the interest of killing some time while we wait for the next chapters....
A question for you all. The ultimate Side A vs Side B setup. In this scenario is a single game, vanguard, sergeant, lieutenant, vice captain, and captain battle. Each round has two Side A players and two Side B players. You can mix and match players from any team, they just have the be from the side in question and play the position in question. Example would be two Side A vanguards and two Side B vanguards. What would be the ultimate match up you'd like to see? It's okay to include players from the defeated teams from the prefecture preliminaries. |
2012-11-26, 01:05 | Link #2425 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Earth
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Forgot to add table control to the list of our concluded points. I do agree with what you've said Table control does not equal flexibility. Though, if you have good table control there is a very good chance you have good flexibility.
Just to reiterate our agreed points are: Toki's defense >= Kasumi's defense Toki's stamina <= Kasumi's stamina (team) Toki's speed = Kasumi's speed Toki's firepower < Kasumi's firepower Toki's flexibility > Kasumi's flexibility Toki's table control > Kasumi's table control Beside this, your post reminded me that we have not yet tackled technical skill which I will define as the player's skill without their power in the equation. Toki has a low technical skill. Before Toki's power manifested, Toki was a third string player at Senriyama. Kasumi, on the other hand, even without taking her power into account was a great defensive player. Eisui's tactics as said by the manga was for Jindai and Hatsumi to get points and for Kasumi to focus on shutting players up in the captain match. Thus: Toki's technical skill < Kasumi's technical skill And at the risk of extending our debate again I would like to say sorry in advance, but I'll have to quibble with you on the overall result of Toki vs. Kasumi. I do agree that there is an uncertainty of how many hands that Kasumi will be able to pull. But, given that Kasumi and Toki will have the same hand formation speed, then by nature of Kasumi's greater firepower she will be getting more points than Toki in 1:1 exchange. Beside that, since we assume that Toki will be calling a lot, her hand will have a lowered point value. Thus, to be able to even with Kasumi, Toki would need to win more perhaps a 2:1 or even a 3:1 ratio. Then, we have to take account of the paradox. How exactly would it resolve will affect the Kasumi vs. Toki match-up. If we go with the first scenario, that the winning tile would just be pushed back and Kasumi will win next turn. If this is how the paradox resolves, Kasumi would sooner or later win against Toki. But, if we go with the second scenario, that the winning tile would be shuffled in a quantum state of uncertainty and Kasumi will randomly draw another tile that is in line with her ability ( a restricted suit + honor tiles). Then, this match-up will became more even. P.S. I was rewatching the Toki's battles again in Achiga-hen and I would like to ask if you think that Toki's one turn precognition ability is always active or she has to consciously activate it. For the purpose of this debate, we assumed that it is always active but looking at the matches there is some evidence that it isn't so. IF we go by the time Toki's eye turn green, then Toki's ability is only active at certain points of the match and not always. P.P.S. That is some heroic pictures you made there. I'll post a comment after I finished my work.
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2012-11-26, 01:14 | Link #2426 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
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Captain: Saki - Koromo - Awai - Ryuuka Vice Cap: Nodoka - Cold Toka - FunaQ - Arata lieutenant: Hisa - Hiroe Atago - Ako - Takami Shibuya Sergeant: Mako - Sumire - Yuu - Tomoe Karijuku Vanguard: Toki - Mihoko - Jindai - Teru Just tossed together more or less lol, and new to the forums and really like Saki, Achiga not so much but that aside this is a setup id be curious about o.O |
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2012-11-26, 02:11 | Link #2427 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Earth
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There's a couple of interesting questions here:
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This fight is a bit lopsided. Saki has a history of trumping powers that are suppose to be absolute, but even if we give Kuro the hypothetical advantage and assume that Saki won't be getting any dora which includes the kan dora. Kuro is a still outmatched. For one, Kuro won't be getting the benefits of those kan dora since whenever Saki calls a kan, she is almost guaranteed to get a rinshan kaihou. Unless, Saki is planning something else. For reference of what Saki could plan to do just look at Teru's kan in Achiga-hen. Saki can also make Kuro's hand overflow with dora and force Kuro to choose to discarding a dora which will negates her power for the rest of the match or probably play into Saki's hand. Besides, getting high points is not going to be a problem for Saki. As Kyouko have pointed out last match, Saki does not even bother using kan doras or any doras for that matter to increase her score. She'll be perfectly fine even without doras for her hand ... since that's how she currently rolls even without a special ability to muck things for her. I do wonder if this is another example of Saki unconsciouly holding back ... since assuming one plays +/-zero, one probably does not want any dora since they drastically increase her score. Quote:
Kasumi and Kuro will not draw the 1 pin. After all, Kasumi has many pin tiles + honor to draw from. Kuro, on the other hand, would draw other doras and tiles that are not Kasumi's one suit. This way both abilities will stay true without any hassle. Now, the next question would be? If no one draws the one-pin? Where will it go? I believe that due to both abilities, it would then have a drastically lowered chance to draw for all players so it would probably be relegated as the last tile that could be drawn on the live wall. Another possibility is the one pin would be stuck on the dead wall where no one can draws it. Quote:
An ultimate match up made of 2 people from each side would be this: Then this is my match up : Vanguard: Teru, Toki vs Jindai, Mihoko Sergeant: Sumire, Yuu vs. Mako, Aislinn Lieutenant: Takami, Sera vs. Hisa, Hiroe Vice-captain : Marui, Funaq vs. Nodoka, Touka(cold mode) (If Touka isn't in cold mode, I would put Hatsumi or Sae here also as a possibility. Nodoka can also be replaced but it looks like her digital mode is going to work in this ultimate match-up since Marui and Funaq are both non-hax players) Captain: Awai, Himiko vs. Saki, Koromo (full moon)
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2012-11-26, 03:51 | Link #2428 | |
Critical fanboy
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Anywhere with anime and anime discussion is fine
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Saki: THAT'S OKEY. I'D BE HAPPY TO PLAY SOMEONE STRONG. Koromo: NO... Koromo: ACHIGA'S CAPTAIN... ... ... ... ...IS A MONKEY. Well, I don't see anything funny about that. ... ... ... |
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2012-11-26, 04:14 | Link #2429 | ||||
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Join Date: Nov 2012
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This is entirely true; Toki would not have been included in Senriyama's lineup if it wasn't for her ability. If Kasumi had control over her powers (namely, in the form of being able to turn it on or off at will), her overall skill would be an important consideration.
However, Kasumi's powers are way too limited. Once she uses her suit magnet, she could no longer go back to her normal style of play; considering that suit magnet basically shuts down her interactions with other players altogether, as long as we can concede that Kasumi without her power could not beat Toki with her power (Toki's power has no drawbacks other than stamina, so she's more likely to have it active at all times), it makes technical skill a non-important consideration in a comparison between the two. Quote:
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And plus, she can still complete her hands when she's not actively stopping Kasumi's tsumo. Kasumi's weakness with honor tiles also factors into account here: if other players (like Toki herself) start going for honor tile pair wins, it will make it difficult for her to discard honors in later discards. Having a single, say, chun in your hand is enough to mess up an otherwise flush draw, while Toki does not have the same weakness with any discard. Saki, for instance, was able to seal Kasumi's hands by making her afraid to deal honors into a potential rinshan. I don't think we'll ever be able to come to a conclusion on this one. I will agree that if the winning tile gets pushed back instead of reset, then Kasumi would have an advantage. I personally think that it's more plausible that the tile gets re-randomized, but since this is a paradox, nothing short of word of Ritz would be able to give any concrete conclusion to this =p. Quote:
Oh, and I definitely agree. Saki vs. Kuro would result in Kuro getting Tanoshii'd very badly. With the Kasumi vs. Kuro situation, though - it seems to be implied that Kasumi's ability blocks her suit from becoming dora tiles as well, so that case should theoretically not ever happen. The only tiles that will never see play would be the red 5's of the blocked suit. Quote:
Vanguard: Mihoko, Satoha, Toki, ??? (Teru turns any match into a lopsided 1v3 massacre, so I'd rather have the good/ability hax players that can actually have a good game with each other). Sergeant: Sumire, Yuu, Mako, (Rinkai/Usuzan Player) (Izumi is not really that skilled; there's no evidence that Aislinn won't continue to just be sealed, as she seems to depend on her ideal table way too much). Lieutenant: Hisa, Hiroe, Sera, Ako (Didn't include sheep-san since we never saw much of what she can do. Haru and Kurumi could only mitigate Hisa when they were double-teaming her; didn't include Takami because it's either she doesn't get last dealer and everyone ignores her, or she gets last dealer and everyone gives up dealer turns on purpose - either is not fun to watch. Nagano's teams don't really have strong lieutenants also.) Vice-Captain: Regular Touka (without Nodoka crush), Nodoka, FunaQ, Mairu (Battle of the badass normal technical players ). Captain: Saki, Koromo, Awai, Nel...Himeko (Battle of the monsters + Himeko. Poor Himeko.) Last edited by Felyndiira; 2012-11-26 at 19:46. |
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2012-11-26, 05:44 | Link #2430 | ||
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Earth
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Oh, that's good to know. Just tell me if you're already bored with this line of discussion - we can switch topics anytime. Its a pity, but I think we're already running out of points of contention for Toki vs. Kasumi. In fact, I agree with most of what you've posted. I just can't agree on this one point.
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For Toki to shut Kasumi she needs to have this: One, Toki needs to have a partner or someone willing to cooperate with her to discard the tile she needs to call and this must be done at the right time or else it was for naught. Toki can't call whenever she wants/needs to after all. Two, Toki or Kasumi's opponent would need to have at least many pairs of honor tiles in her hand to strike at Kasumi and I don't think Toki has any draw bonus for honor tiles. In fact, the very first thing you discard when you are building your hand is usually honor tiles. If Toki insist on making an honor tile pon, she will be slowing her hand down too. As you can see with this two points, the whole set-up is highly situational. Thus, I don't think that it is possible for Toki to be able to shut Kasumi down perfectly or even most of the time. Perhaps instead of using the Koromo vs Kana analogy Sera vs Ako would be better (the quarterly match not the semifinal one). Quote:
Judging from the direction of the manga, we won't even be getting a word of god on the matter. For the foreseeable future Toki vs. Kasumi won't happen. There is a high chance that Toki won't be in the individual match due to stamina problems. Kasumi is also not participating in the individual match. So yeah. Anyway since one of our main point is a big blank question mark. And looking at that stats we made, it seems that Kasumi and Toki ended up more or less even. Can we put them in the same power tier and just mark that any battle between the two can go both way depending on the situation?
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2012-11-26, 08:16 | Link #2431 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2012
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It does make me wonder, though - can you force Kasumi's hand in such a way that in an exhaustive draw situation, it is no longer even possible for no one else to draw that restricted suit? If that happens, and Kasumi for some reason purposely screws up her hand and never calls Tsumo, what would happen in the later rounds - would someone else end up drawing the suit anyway because it's no longer logically possible for her not to, or would we see weird things happening like five white dragon tiles? |
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2012-11-26, 13:26 | Link #2433 | ||
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Earth
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Remember, Saki said that she started the round by using the mental trick that Hisa taught her back in the first chapter. So this would be the beginning score : Saki : 25,000 - 24,000 = 1000 Kyouko : 25,000 + 8,000 = 33,000 Kasumi :25,000 + 8,000 = 33,0000 Toyone: 25,000 + 8,000 = 33,000 East 1st round As Felyndiira said, Kyouko "accidentally" stopped Saki's kan. Kyouko called something allowing Kasumi to get the tile Saki needs and since Kasumi is a really good defender she kept it. Anyway the round ends with Kyouko ronning Toyone. Saki : 1,000 Kyouko : 33,000 + 3,900 = 36,900 Kasumi : 33,000 Toyone: 33,000 - 3,900 = 29,100 East 2nd round Saki is looking remarkably put out. Anyway, this round ends with Kyouko doing a tsumo. (2,000/1000) Saki : 1,000 - 1,000 = 0 Kyouko : 36,900 + 4,000 = 40,900 Kasumi : 33,000 - 1,000 = 32,000 Toyone : 29,100 - 2,000 = 27,100 East 3rd round I think Saki is still a bit shaken in this round. Unfortunately, this is Saki's dealership and she got hit by a ron. Ouch. And consequently if we follow her perspective, she is also below zero. Double ouch. Notably, it was Kyouko who did this by directly hitting Saki. Saki : 0 - 2,600 = -2,600 Kyouko : 40,900 + 2,600 = 43,500 Kasumi : 32,000 Toyone: 27,100 I hypothesize that this is the time wherein Saki decides to switch out of Hisa's mental trick and go for the easier and more comfortable (for her, anyway) +/-zero route. If you check the manga page, we get Toyone and Kasumi's reaction to this win which is in the variation of easy going comments about how Kyouko seems to be rushing her win. Saki doesn't have any comment and now we know why. East 4th round (Saki is already in the +/-zero mode) This is Kyouko's dealership. She is once again rushing to get a quick win. But, the moment she did a riichi, Saki called a kan on Kyouko's discards and won. Rinshan Kaihou for 8,000 points + 1,000 for the riichi stick. That was some quick revenge. Additional comments: I am not surprised that Hisa's mental trick didn't work. There is this tiny problem with tricks - it only works effectively if you didn't know that there is a trick involved. Since, Saki is essentially trying to trick herself, then its effectiveness would probably be reduced. In fact, I would hazard to guess that Saki doing Hisa's mental trick is more of a handicap than anything else in this match. Even when Saki first used it, it was remarked to be quite a feat to achieve. And now, with the "trick" revealed to Saki- most of its effectiveness is probably gone. It probably didn't help Saki's mental state either when it failed; ultimately causing Saki to do +/-zero as a comfort blanket.
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2012-11-26, 15:38 | Link #2434 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2011
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Vanguard: Toki, Teru vs Mihoko, Jindai Sergeant: Yuu, Sumire vs Aislinn, Kaori Lieutenant: Sera, Takami vs Hisa, Hiroe Vice Captain: Mairu, Hiroko vs Momo, Sae Captain: Awai, Shizu vs Koromo, Yumi. Side B hasn't got a great Sergeant that we've seen so far and we've not seen the captains of Side A. But i think these matches would be interesting. |
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2012-11-28, 14:44 | Link #2436 |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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O-oh. This thread was teeming with activities until recently with the Kasumi vs Toki discussion and the Why Saki Was Afraid Of Kyouko discussion but it seems to have petered out.
Anyways, I'm curious on which VAs do you think would be perfect to play the Miyamori, Eisui and Himematsu girls. Here's the list of VAs I'd prefer and bolded are the VAs that I would be disappointed if they aren't casted as the specific characters: Himematsu Suzu Ueshige - Chiaki Ohmigawa Yuuko Mase - Maaya Uchida Hiroe Atago - Emiri Katou Kinue Atago - Kanae Itou Kyouko Suehara - Chiwa Saitou Miyamori Shiromi Kosegawa - Aki Toyosaki Aislinn Wishart - Satomi Satou Kurumi Kakura - Ayana Taketatsu Sae Ususawa - Minako Kotobuki Toyone Anetai - Yoko Hikasa Rinkai: Satoha Tsujigaito - Eri Kitamura Nelly Virzaladze - Ai Kayano Megan Davin - Miyuki Sawashiro Choe Myeonghwa - Aya Hirano Hao Huiyu - Yukari Tamura Eisui Komaki Jindai - Mamiko Noto Tomoe Karijuku - Sachika Misawa Haru Takimi - Ayane Sakura Hatsumi Usuzumi - Yuka Iguchi Kasumi Iwato - Yuko Goto and the remaining Shiraitodai: Takami Shibuya - Mariya Ise Seiko Matano - Haruka Tomatsu Awai Oohoshi - Hisako Kanemoto |
2012-12-02, 17:33 | Link #2440 | ||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
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I'm actually wondering who can stop Teru's board dominance besides Saki. I'm guessing Cold Touka would be able to challenge her. Don't know if this has been noted, but what really makes her scary even when she has 3 limiters on her, she can still tear things up. Quote:
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Something else I wanted to add to how I noticed how Saki and Teru both had winning strikes in their styles, Saki's last win against Koromo was a 4 melded Kans, a yakuman hand, and Teru is theorized to be able to get a Nine Gate yakuman, so it seems that the Miyanaga sibilings winning strikes all end with yakuman hands. Does anyone have any guesses as to who the other 3 yakuman in the tournament, you know the yakumans mentioned in chapter 15 on page 15, I'm guessing 2 of them came from Rinkai and Usuzan, but that doesn't tell me where the other one comes from. Also just wondering but has anyone complied a list of points that characters lose and win for each round for every match, or does someone want to do that? And I don't mean the total amount of points earned and lost overall, I want to know points gained and lost for each round in a match. Finally I would like to add that Yuuki is the anti-Teru, since Yuuki is most dangerous during the east round and will actively seek to drop someone below 0, just how Teru becomes the most dangerous in the final round. Plus with Sumire having a tell, I'm guessing that Mako willbe able to spot it, since she uses matches from her memory to help her play. P.S Sorry for the long post but you guys really know how to get a debate going. Last edited by Bladezer; 2012-12-02 at 18:11. |
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mahjong, nopan, seinen, sport, yuri |
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