Shin Sekai Yori - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

But here is the major difference, Kiroumaru was honest about it. He told them that if given the opportunity or if he felt his tribe was in danger he might have attacked them too. More than anything that honesty to me makes him even more honorable.

I agree. I prefer what they did here to both unwavering loyalty and betrayal. It shows his ultimate pragmatism. To me, though, the difference between Krioumaru and Yakomaru isn't so much one of honour, as it's one of... leadership style. Yakomaru's a meticulous planner who doesn't like risks; he's also very smart. Kiroumaru is the type to charge in and adapt to the situation.

Kiroumaru's honest, now, because he's got nothing left to lose, and in this situation, he's better off if the kids trust him. He is more "honourable" than Yakomaru in the sense that he understands the value of honesty and collaboration. I'm pretty sure Yakomaru thinks of other people in terms of risks and behaviour probablility.

Let me put it his way: Kiroumaru plays poker; Yakomaru plays chess. The former assesses the opponent more, the latter assesses the board. It's not a perfect analogy, but that's the impression I get.

[creb]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Perhaps Kiroumaru just wanted that as a means of defense in case the humans turned on him, but if so, that could have been made more clear by what he said here.

I don't know if it's a translation issue or not, but I thought it was pretty clear that's exactly why he wanted WMDs.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I also sense a certain naive idealism starting to take the reins here, given the increasing importance of certain plot points.

Did you get your account hacked?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

But here is the major difference, Kiroumaru was honest about it.

He's only honest about it because of circumstances, though. Even Kiroumaru himself admits that.

And whatever you think of Yakomaru, he also is honest when he feels that is the most pragmatic thing to be.

Kiroumaru's admittance here really cuts down on significant differences between him and Yakomaru. Yes, there are still some differences there, but Kiroumaru is no longer as compelling/interesting an antithesis to Yakomaru as what he was before this episode, in my view.


To be fair, Kiroumaru is still a very good character. But I liked the sharp contrast between him and Yakomaru, and this reveal dulls it a bit, imo.

Originally Posted by creb

Did you get your account hacked?

Yes, there are times I like idealistic heroes, to be sure.

But I don't think that blends well with the "Murphy's Law" narrative we have here. Everything that could go wrong does go wrong... until Saki throws caution completely to the wind, and puts her heart ahead of everything. That's the vibe I'm getting right now. My suspicion is that Saki is going to "win big" in the finale (well, win as much as is possible given the tragedy that has already occurred, anyway).

To me, it's like you have this mature, balls-to-the-wall story that pulls no punches... and then decides to have an ending that's downright shounen-esque in its "love and friendship conquers all!" vibe. It's a bit too sugary even for me.

I could well be wrong here of course, but I have a strong gut instinct that Saki wins big next episode.

[Shadow5YA]

Just because both of them wanted a countermeasure against the humans doesn't mean they are the least bit similar.

Kiroumaru wants to preserve the safety of his fellow man. Squealer wants to preserve his own safety even at the cost of his own fellow man. It doesn't have anything to do with how honest they are.

[creb]

On a completely different note, how do humans use their Cantus to set things on fire?

[Tougarashi]

Queerats revolution is overhype. The ones who should revolve should be Minoshiros. Schizophrenic Saki has been abusing the false minoshiros so far in this story. It's a minoshiros curelty.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Just because both of them wanted a countermeasure against the humans doesn't mean they are the least bit similar.

Your statement here is objectively false, since its false at even a definitional level. The fact that they both wanted a countermeasure against the humans is a similarity between the two of them. Period.

Like it or not, it makes them more similar.

Kiroumaru wants to preserve the safety of his fellow man.

Kiroumaru himself lost many soldiers during his attempt to find WMDs in Tokyo. This is by his own account. So it's simply false to argue that Kiroumaru places the safety of his fellow man ahead of anything else. No, he doesn't.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Kiroumaru himself lost many soldiers during his attempt to find WMDs in Tokyo. This is by his own account. So it's simply false to argue that Kiroumaru places the safety of his fellow man ahead of anything else. No, he doesn't.

In that particular case, he placed the mission ahead of losing a good portion of his fellows, but that was specifically stated to be unusual for him in episode 23. Inui said that "A single loss of life would normally prompt Kiroumaru to retreat immediately. Something very important must have motivated him to keep exploring at the cost of a third of his force. ".

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And whatever you think of Yakomaru, he also is honest when he feels that is the most pragmatic thing to be.

I can't recall Yakomaru ever being honest like that.

Do you actually think if the situation was reversed he would tell them the truth? Even in the queen situation he told them only after he could not hide the truth and he still tried to make excuses.

Kiromaru told them the truth and made no excuses.

Kiroumaru's admittance here really cuts down on significant differences between him and Yakomaru. Yes, there are still some differences there, but Kiroumaru is no longer as compelling/interesting an antithesis to Yakomaru as what he was before this episode, in my view.

They are still complete opposites to me

No Kiroumaru isn't a yes man to the humans but that is not what made him different from Yakomaru.

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Your statement here is objectively false, since its false at even a definitional level. The fact that they both wanted a countermeasure against the humans is a similarity between the two of them. Period.

Like it or not, it makes them more similar.

Ooh? You are too quick to dismiss a rhetorical argument with petty logic here, don't you think? Just because bla (something relevant but not much) doesn't mean bla (the bigger picture) is a very common figure of speech and you're completely turning a blind eye to an obvious point when you bring in logical analysis of the mathematical sort to cheapen the argument.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Kiroumaru himself lost many soldiers during his attempt to find WMDs in Tokyo. This is by his own account. So it's simply false to argue that Kiroumaru places the safety of his fellow man ahead of anything else. No, he doesn't.

Ugh. Kiroumaru and his men were in it together. He risked his life in an expedition himself. Yakomaru uses his men as slave. He would never risk his life in just an expedition. His being there in a hunt with his trump card on the line is different.

I don't have much time atm so I shall leave it at that for now

[Repelsteeltju]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

Yakomaru's a meticulous planner who doesn't like risks; he's also very smart. Kiroumaru is the type to charge in and adapt to the situation.

Kiroumaru's honest, now, because he's got nothing left to lose, and in this situation, he's better off if the kids trust him. He is more "honourable" than Yakomaru in the sense that he understands the value of honesty and collaboration. I'm pretty sure Yakomaru thinks of other people in terms of risks and behaviour probablility.

Isn't charging in and adapting excatly what Yakomaru is doing right now in Tokyo? Don't answer that. The answer is yes. Also don't call Kirou a collaborateur. He deserves more credit than that.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Just because both of them wanted a countermeasure against the humans doesn't mean they are the least bit similar.

Kiroumaru wants to preserve the safety of his fellow man. Squealer wants to preserve his own safety even at the cost of his own fellow man. It doesn't have anything to do with how honest they are.

Jog my memory would you please. Which one of them lined his own unarmed soldiers up to be slaughtered so that he alone could escape?

Originally Posted by Tougarashi

Queerats revolution is overhype. The ones who should revolve should be Minoshiros. Schizophrenic Saki has been abusing the false minoshiros so far in this story. It's a minoshiros curelty.

Who is to say the Minoshiro didn't mastermind the Queerat revolution?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Kiroumaru himself lost many soldiers during his attempt to find WMDs in Tokyo. This is by his own account. So it's simply false to argue that Kiroumaru places the safety of his fellow man ahead of anything else. No, he doesn't.

It depends how much he values possible future losses. Leaving the lives of all your kin in the hands of self-centered and paranoid people with god-complexes is somewhat irresponsible.

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity

O
Ugh. Kiroumaru and his men were in it together. He risked his life in an expedition himself. Yakomaru uses his men as slave. He would never risk his life in just an expedition. His being there in a hunt with his trump card on the line is different.

I don't have much time atm so I shall leave it at that for now

> Yakomaru would never risk his life in just an expedition.
> Yakomaru doing exactly that is different.

You seem to have mixed feudalism and democratcy a bit. Also blind presumptuous Yakomaru hate has gotten rather dull. All the cool kids are hating Saki now for being offensively girly in the face of adversity.

[Tougarashi]

Kinoumaru admitted about searching WDM in Tokyo before because he knew that Saki and Satoru believe in co-existence of queerats and humans. He wouldn't tell that if Inui was there. It is true that Yokomaru and Kinoumaru share the same views on humans but if human and queerats have to strive for peaceful co-existence, the suitable leader will be Kinoumaru who is not cunning and honest. But thanks to the Yokomaru revolution, even if it is failed, human have to surrender their God-like status and acknowledge that rats are no longer inferior beings.

[Repelsteeltju]

The thing is: their co-coexistence was already peaceful. Sure the occasional odd colony was wiped out for 'obscure' reasons and then there was that whole defiance means death thing-y going on. But just killing Yakomaru, neutralizing the threat posed by Maria & Mamouru's lovechild, ending the revolt and going back to the way things were while minding Kiroumaru's feelings a bit more won't change anything for the better. And what we have here with the ancien régime killed off and the balance of power slightly in the queerats' favor is a once in a lifetime opportunity for reform.

(In the end Yakomaru's brave and defiant struggle might be what will save humanity from slowly withering away and going extinct.)

And some thoughts on perspective. Considering honesty and straightforwardness desired traits could be rephrased as to consider simple predictability a desired trait. Being predictable is being boring and uninteresting. Predictability in my view can only be as desired trait in people you either don't care for or people you hope to control or manipulate. If that's what Saki needs or thinks she wants, they could just kill Kiroumaru and replace him with some scaredy cat figurehead that's not a war hungry wolf-rat-lion.

Fact is: the humans need someone or something to keep their arrogant and genocidal tendencies in check, it might be a bit much to extend their genetic programming to enforce nonviolence against queerats, just jet but something has to happen for this not to happen again.

[Kirarakim]

I don't find anything "brave" about Yakomaru. He stayed mostly hidden during this whole campaign never risking his own life but being okay with risking the life of his men.

The only reason he came out this time is because his trump card was on the line and he had no other choice.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I can't recall Yakomaru ever being honest like that.

Yakomaru has told the truth at times before. He has told the truth about very troubling matters (such as what was done to his Queen).

Do you actually think if the situation was reversed he would tell them the truth?

If he felt it would garner more trust from Saki and Satoru, yes, I do. Why wouldn't he? It would be pragmatic of him.

Even in the queen situation he told them only after he could not hide the truth and he still tried to make excuses.

Is a valid explanation "making excuses" to you?

Kiromaru told them the truth and made no excuses.

He made excuses just as much as Yakomaru did.

They are still complete opposites to me.

No, they're not. Not at all. There are important similarities between the two of them.

No Kiroumaru isn't a yes man to the humans but that is not what made him different from Yakomaru.

Loyalty to humans was a big part of what made Kiroumaru different from Yakumaru. So much for that.

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity

Ooh? You are too quick to dismiss a rhetorical argument with petty logic here, don't you think?

No, I don't. There's nothing "petty" about my logic. If you speak in absolutes without having just reason for doing so then be prepared to be called on it. And what's pretty, imo, is hating Yakomaru so much and loving Kiroumaru so much that you absolutely refuse to accept that there are notable similarities between the two. I think people here are far too quick to assume the absolute worst about Yakomaru, and assume the absolute best about Kiroumaru, for very little good reason. Like Repelsteeltju, I'm getting sick and tired of this frankly lazy character evaluation that completely lacks even a semblance of real nuance.

Ugh. Kiroumaru and his men were in it together. He risked his life in an expedition himself. Yakomaru uses his men as slave. He would never risk his life in just an expedition. His being there in a hunt with his trump card on the line is different.

I completely disagree. Yakomaru is definitely risking his life on this expedition. It is far from inconceivable that he could end up getting killed by Saki or Satoru. In fact, that's looking very likely to me right now.

Originally Posted by Repelsteeltju

Jog my memory would you please. Which one of them lined his own unarmed soldiers up to be slaughtered so that he alone could escape?

Excellent point. Seems rather odd for a Commander who was "in it together" with his men...

You seem to have mixed feudalism and democratcy a bit. Also blind presumptuous Yakomaru hate has gotten rather dull.

Agreed. It's really getting out of hand.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Repelsteeltju

Jog my memory would you please. Which one of them lined his own unarmed soldiers up to be slaughtered so that he alone could escape?

Not Kiroumaru - his men did it on their own. Imagine it as loyal soldiers helping the general escape from a lost battle. Of course, Kiroumaru could've died with his army, but he has responsibilities and can't afford to heroically go down with the ship. He escaped to find a way to save his queen who is the key to the colony's continued survival.

Kiroumaru and Yakomaru/Squealer are opposites, but not as much in their relationship with humans, as in their personality and most importantly in their worldview - they should address this in the next episode (at least I hope they will). But in any case I think it's beyond dispute that of the two of them Kiroumaru is the more noble and respectable one. On the other hand, I think it's worth noting that Squealer has his own side of the story that we haven't fully heard yet.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Not Kiroumaru - his men did it on their own. Imagine it as loyal soldiers helping the general escape from a lost battle. Of course, Kiroumaru could've died with his army, but he has responsibilities and can't afford to heroically go down with the ship. He escaped to find a way to save his queen who is the key to the colony's continued survival.

And Yakomaru is similarly key to his own colony's continued survival. After all, he's the brains behind a massive war effort. Losing the chief strategist of a major war effort could be absolutely crippling to the Queerats.

Yakomaru and Kiroumaru both had good reasons for prioritizing their own survival in recent instances of doing so. They're both pragmatic in that way. So they certainly don't seem like "complete opposites" to me.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Yakomaru has told the truth at times before. He has told the truth about very troubling matters (such as what was done to his Queen).

Right only after he got caught and Saki saw what condition the queen was in and then he still tried to butter it up that he had no other choice.

If he felt it would garner more trust from Saki and Satoru, yes, I do. Why wouldn't he? It would be pragmatic of him.

He could easily have made something up or tried to sweeten his reason, that is exactly what Yakomaru would have done.

Kiroumaru did not have to tell them the truth to gain their trust. And even still he told them the truth straight without buttering up his words or trying to make himself look better.

Is a valid explanation "making excuses" to you?

Yes I think what Yakomaru said was an excuse. Lobotomizing your queen goes way beyond "defense".

Now I understand they need the queen for the species to survive but if he was "honest" he would have said this from the beginning that the tribe decided they didn't want the queen to rule over them and they didn't kill her because they needed her to make babies, not try to sweeten it up with "equal rights" nonsense.

He made excuses just as much as Yakomaru did.

No you are wrong, he made no excuses to them. He explained to them exactly what he was doing in Tokyo and why. It was upfront in ways that Yakomaru never was.

Loyalty to humans was a big part of what made Kiroumaru different from Yakumaru. So much for that.

I never felt Kiromaru's loyalty to humans was what made him different from Yakomaru.

In fact Dawnstorm and I had this discussion a couple weeks back that I didn't want him to betray them because that would take away from Kiroumaru's honor but she didn't think he should be portrayed like the "loyal savage".

I think what happened in this episode met with both of our wishes. Kiroumaru would never betray Saki and Satoru not because he was "loyal to humans" but because it goes against who he is as a character. If Kiroumaru says he is on your side then he is on your side and he is honest about it. It's not in Kiroumaru's nature to conduct elaborate schemes to make characters think he is on their side when he is not. In fact he is being honest in saying I am helping you here but not because I am loyal to humans.

The difference is Yakomaru always tried to butter up to the humans and those above him. His words were those of a flatterer but his true intentions were anything but honorable.

Yakomaru would lie and say I am on your side when he really never was. Kiroumaru would say I am not on your side but here is the reason I am helping you.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Loyalty to humans was a big part of what made Kiroumaru different from Yakumaru. So much for that.

Perceived loyalty to humans. Kiroumaru's loyalty is to his colony (clan, if you will), and as long as being on good terms with humans helps them flourish it's all cool as far as he's concerned. But he's not blind or stupid either.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I completely disagree. Yakomaru is definitely risking his life on this expedition. It is far from inconceivable that he could end up getting killed by Saki or Satoru. In fact, that's looking very likely to me right now.

Have you actually seen him since we arrived in Tokyo? Nope, he's hiding somewhere. The only time he came out was when the humans couldn't attack him (since he was out of their sight).

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And Yakomaru is similarly key to his own colony's continued survival. After all, he's the brains behind a massive war effort. Losing the chief strategist of a major war effort could be absolutely crippling to the Queerats.

Perhaps, but still he's not exactly risking his life. Also, he may be a mastermind but it's not like he's doing everything on his own, there are bakenezumi working under him who can continue the fight if he dies. It's just that he (quite understandably) doesn't want to die.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Have you actually seen him since we arrived in Tokyo? Nope, he's hiding somewhere. The only time he came out was when the humans couldn't attack him (since he was out of their sight).

He didn't have to go on the expedition at all. He could have assigned this task to some 2nd in Command, or some Field Commander.

But no, he recognized that this is one time where it would probably be best for him to take a bit of a personal risk.

Keep in mind that Tokyo is potentially deadly to Yakomaru for reasons beyond just Saki, Satoru, and Inui. The various monsters there could have conceivably killed, or at least wounded/injured, Yakomaru.

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Right only after he got caught and Saki saw what condition the queen was in and then he still tried to butter it up that he had no other choice.

What other choice did he have? And Kiroumaru certainly had another choice - He never had to go to Tokyo at all.

He could easily have made something up or tried to sweeten his reason, that is exactly what Yakomaru would have done.

Kiroumaru did sweeten his words.

"Well, we probably wouldn't have attacked you anyway, due to our low perceived chances of success". That was the jist of what he said.

Yes I think what Yakomaru said was an excuse. Lobotomizing your queen goes way beyond "defense".

I disagree. Whether lobotimizing her is better or worse than killing her is not a black-and-white question. In either case, a big part of the reason for doing so is defense.

Now I understand they need the queen for the species to survive but if he was "honest" he would have said this from the beginning that the tribe decided they didn't want the queen to rule over them and they didn't kill her because they needed her to make babies, not try to sweeten it up with "equal rights" nonsense.

How do you know that's nonsense? You don't know if that's nonsense or not. And you don't know that with only one episode left!

No you are wrong, he made no excuses to them.

I don't consider Yakomaru's reasoning to be "excuses". So no, I'm not wrong. Yakomaru and Kiroumaru were both providing explanations. But frankly, one explanation (Yakomaru's) had necessity on its side, while the other had (at best) paranoia or (at worst) very aggressive designs towards humans.

I never felt Kiromaru's loyalty to humans was what made him different from Yakomaru.

I did feel that his loyalty to humans was a big part of what made him different from Yakomaru. That's partly why I'm disappointed in this latest reveal about Kiroumaru.

In fact Dawnstorm and I had this discussion a couple weeks back that I didn't want him to betray them because that would take away from Kiroumaru's honor but she didn't think he should be portrayed like the "loyal savage".

I think what happened in this episode met with both of our wishes. Kiroumaru would never betray Saki and Satoru not because he was "loyal to humans" but because it goes against who he is as a character. If Kiroumaru says he is on your side then he is on your side and he is honest about it. It's not in Kiroumaru's nature to conduct elaborate schemes to make characters think he is on their side when he is not. In fact he is being honest in saying I am helping you here but not because I am loyal to humans.

How can you write this after how Kiroumaru presented himself to the humans back when they questioned both him and Yakomaru? Kiroumaru literally treated the humans like gods there, and he acted with complete deference and respect towards them there.

He clearly was not entirely sincere in what he said to the humans or he never would have went searching for WMDs.

The difference is Yakomaru always tried to butter up to the humans and those above him. His words were those of a flatterer but his true intentions were anything but honorable.

I think you can reasonably say much the same about Kiroumaru given what this episode reveals combined with how Kiroumaru spoke to humans in the past.