Spice and Wolf II - Episode 3 Discussion / Poll

[golthin]

Originally Posted by Sinestra

Make Horo panic over information that might not be true in the first place is not wise, not productive and not profitable. Oh and yea he did forget lol

that is why he was keeping the info a secret. his mistake was that he believed that Horo couldn't read because of his preconceptions about women and what she told him. He is thinking more of Horo as a normal woman and forgetting that she is a wise being.

[Nochgo]

Wow, such an amazing and powerful episode. I wonder how they are going to resolve this conflict.

[Lightly_Toasted]

I don't think Horo is being foolish for this situation by acting like a helpless princess.

Spoiler for Ep 3 and vol 3:

Remember she has many year of experience under her belt, and is likeley accostomed to foolish youngsters. To her I bleieve she thinks they can gain something from Amati. IE he buys her gifts to woo her, and pay off her debt, only for her to join back up with lawrence. Horo thinks of it as a nice little scam, and assumes Lawrence will be smart enough to pick up on this, but he thinks he's losing her after their fight over yoitsu. The important part there was that she said "SORRY" afterwards, admitting that she was in the wrong. But Lawrence did not seem to pick up on it...

[israfel070]

Originally Posted by golthin

he believed that Horo couldn't read because of his preconceptions about women

lolwut? Where the hell do you get that? He was surprised that she COULDN'T read.

She didn't really need that skillset in her life as a giant wolf. Even so, Lawrence's assumption was that wise Horo WOULD be able to read, when he handed her the earlier letter in the first place.

When he thought that she wouldn't be able to read the second letter, he was simply taking her at her word.

Spoiler:

Pictured Below: An evil misogynist caught in the act of assuming that a woman is dumb.

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by Lightly_Toasted

I don't think Horo is being foolish for this situation by acting like a helpless princess.

Spoiler for Ep 3 and vol 3:

Remember she has many year of experience under her belt, and is likeley accostomed to foolish youngsters. To her I bleieve she thinks they can gain something from Amati. IE he buys her gifts to woo her, and pay off her debt, only for her to join back up with lawrence. Horo thinks of it as a nice little scam, and assumes Lawrence will be smart enough to pick up on this, but he thinks he's losing her after their fight over yoitsu. The important part there was that she said "SORRY" afterwards, admitting that she was in the wrong. But Lawrence did not seem to pick up on it...

Remember that Horo was sur[rised about the current churcg power and she remembers it only from the times when it was still a small unimportant sect, this means that Horo did not hand out in society as much as you try to imply here.

And watching village youngsters from far away does not count as well as she is not interacting with them.

So yeah she does not have all that much human society experience or at very least the recent human society (and rules, traditions and acts do change with time).

[Filozof]

Originally Posted by Lightly_Toasted

I don't think Horo is being foolish for this situation by acting like a helpless princess.

Spoiler for Ep 3 and vol 3:

Remember she has many year of experience under her belt, and is likeley accostomed to foolish youngsters. To her I bleieve she thinks they can gain something from Amati. IE he buys her gifts to woo her, and pay off her debt, only for her to join back up with lawrence. Horo thinks of it as a nice little scam, and assumes Lawrence will be smart enough to pick up on this, but he thinks he's losing her after their fight over yoitsu. The important part there was that she said "SORRY" afterwards, admitting that she was in the wrong. But Lawrence did not seem to pick up on it...

finally someone!! =D +1

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Remember that Horo was sur[rised about the current churcg power and she remembers it only from the times when it was still a small unimportant sect, this means that Horo did not hand out in society as much as you try to imply here.

And watching village youngsters from far away does not count as well as she is not interacting with them.

So yeah she does not have all that much human society experience or at very least the recent human society (and rules, traditions and acts do change with time).

she wasn't at at the village all the time, she was travelling a lot before she became a village god. that she saw church when it was still powerless, means she must have travelled quite a while ago, and that she must be quite old in human terms.

[Oozlum Bird]

Originally Posted by Xhokhusmak

If he had qualms and originally had the idea of letting Horo go on her own for the last stretch of traveling, that should have been his responsibility to inform her of what might've happened, instead of letting her arrive at a devastated hometown alone. Be the bearer of bad news then, or else the consequences are just going to be that much more hurtful when the truth finally comes around, AS YOU CAN CLEARLY SEE NOW.

For me in real life, that's pretty much instant severance of any acquaintance from that person.

I completely agree. He should have told her even if it was only a possibility. She deserved to know.

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by Filozof

finally someone!! =D +1

she wasn't at at the village all the time, she was travelling a lot before she became a village god. that she saw church when it was still powerless, means she must have travelled quite a while ago, and that she must be quite old in human terms.

As I said rules and society do changes. I think you know history well enough to not talk about pre-church era as a similar one to the Church when has risen. I recommend you reading some of sociology to see how even a little time can change society's behaviour as a general unit and as an individual as well.

Horo must have been socially active before Rome's collapse.

Lets see when could it happen shall we:

We all know that in AD 313, the Emperor Constantine made Christianity legal and they were allowed to openly worship, but Horo does not know that meaning that she was active before that, and I do not think I need to tell you hove different is lets say society of AD 200 Rome society from the Chrurch era?

Its like talking about the Self notion change during Socrates and during Descartes era (as you know during Socrates era they did not have had understanding off Self the way it changes during Descartes era and still remains during our times).

The whole society changed quite a lot after Rome's collapse and this affected the individual behaviour as well.

The knowledge that she obtained during the old times while still not completely useless decreased in the usage thus despite living so much and despite traveling before that she can not know how do the youths act since simply poeple behaviour during those times and these were different.

[Filozof]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

As I said rules and society do changes. I think you know history well enough to not talk about pre-church era as a similar one to the Church when has risen. I recommend you reading some of sociology to see how even a little time can change society's behaviour as a general unit and as an individual as well.

Horo must have been socially active before Rome's collapse.

Lets see when could it happen shall we:

We all know that in AD 313, the Emperor Constantine made Christianity legal and they were allowed to openly worship, but Horo does not know that meaning that she was active before that, and I do not think I need to tell you hove different is lets say society of AD 200 Rome society from the Chrurch era?

Its like talking about the Self notion change during Socrates and during Descartes era (as you know during Socrates era they did not have had understanding off Self the way it changes during Descartes era and still remains during our times).

The whole society changed quite a lot after Rome's collapse and this affected the individual behaviour as well.

The knowledge that she obtained during the old times while still not completely useless decreased in the usage thus despite living so much and despite traveling before that she can not know how do the youths act since simply poeple behaviour during those times and these were different.

you could as well say that psychology isn't very usefull when dealing with individual's behaviour. i don't agree.
and what you are descibing doesn't have to do as much with expirience as it does with knowledge, which is faster obtained, and horo's knowledge accumulated while traveling with lawrence is probably enough to confidently interact within orthodox church(present) society.

and also, i am a philosophy student, so your patronising isn't very well placed.

[Darknemo2000]

You are a philosophy student? Nice to meet you (I am philosophy magister myself).

While traveling with Lawrence she doesn't gain all that much knowledge with interacting with youths and understanding their behavior is what is at the question here.

She understood the basic differences but understanding the changes in behaviours are far more reaching. Personally I would recommend you reading Meadow's works regarding this particular theme (he is partial philosopher too though much more known for his sociology works) as in how society's perception and general behavior changes with the course of time and I doubt Horo can understand all nuances from todays behavior thats why we can say she is inexperienced while dealing with people like Amiati in that society.

[Filozof]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

You are a philosophy student? Nice to meet you (I am philosophy magister myself).

While traveling with Lawrence she doesn't gain all that much knowledge with interacting with youths and understanding their behavior is what is at the question here.

She understood the basic differences but understanding the changes in behaviours are far more reaching. Personally I would recommend you reading Meadow's works regarding this particular theme (he is partial philosopher too though much more known for his sociology works) as in how society's perception and general behavior changes with the course of time and I doubt Horo can understand all nuances from todays behavior thats why we can say she is inexperienced while dealing with people like Amiati in that society.

is that a 5(4)+2 magister? if so then i can place some weight behind your smugness.
well reading doesn't hurt.

if you read into horro's life and compare it to human's, she's most probaly had more than a human's lifetime expirience(and we humans consider over 18 years to already be mature in society's way) with church, if she didn't know how widespread they are, doesn't mean that doesn't know their ways.
and the influence of society on individual is still indirect, which is what I have been sayin all along. human pshyche is direct, if it wasn't so, psyhology would be redundant.

[Darknemo2000]

It was 4+2 in my case.

She could not come into contact with church since back then it was still hidden and small organization (and illegal) unless she was a member of it herself which she was not. So she could not have had lifetime experience with church as it was pretty much impossible - it was way too secret.

She could have known about it some things but nothing in detail.

[fish eric]

Originally Posted by Lightly_Toasted

I don't think Horo is being foolish for this situation by acting like a helpless princess.

Spoiler for Ep 3 and vol 3:

Remember she has many year of experience under her belt, and is likeley accostomed to foolish youngsters. To her I bleieve she thinks they can gain something from Amati. IE he buys her gifts to woo her, and pay off her debt, only for her to join back up with lawrence. Horo thinks of it as a nice little scam, and assumes Lawrence will be smart enough to pick up on this, but he thinks he's losing her after their fight over yoitsu. The important part there was that she said "SORRY" afterwards, admitting that she was in the wrong. But Lawrence did not seem to pick up on it...

Yep, she was trying to say that she was wrong, but Lawrence felt that he too was wrong, and he was, for hiding that Yoitsu info from her.

I think he heard her say "sorry", but misunderstood what it meant. I think Lawrence felt she meant "Sorry, but I don't want to see you right now"

[Intranetusa]

Originally Posted by Filozof

you could as well say that psychology isn't very usefull when dealing with individual's behaviour....and also, i am a philosophy student, so your patronising isn't very well placed.

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

You are a philosophy student? Nice to meet you (I am philosophy magister myself).

Two philosophy majors philosophizin' about the inner themes of Spice & Wolf...lulz?

[Filozof]

Originally Posted by Intranetusa

Two philosophy majors philosophizin' about the inner themes of Spice & Wolf...lulz?

i can't help myself, i'ts such an interesting story.

[FTGT]

Originally Posted by Intranetusa

Two philosophy majors philosophizin' about the inner themes of Spice & Wolf...lulz?

Very interesting indeed.....

Im curious now, what kind of other specialist do we have here?

Myself I am an electrical (degreed) engineer..... yes, I love S&W although there is no electricity in it.

[Vexx]

I'm also an electrical engineer by degree (though most of my career had more to do with aerospace control systems, software design, system simulations, physics, and a stint in network architecture/security). I'm an avid hobbyist in medieval and ancient civilizations, particularly the technologies from those time periods. I'm also fascinated by linguistics and language evolution. Blahblahblah....

So S&W appeals to me on multiple levels - the display of technologies, the economics, the language, the fantasy premise, and damn-it-all the goddess ホロ。

I haven't said much about the three episodes so far because frankly, I'm basking in them. I want to see how the arc plays out before I vote on episodes though solid "9"s are most probable.

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by FTGT

Myself I am an electrical (degreed) engineer..... yes, I love S&W although there is no electricity in it.

But there is! Just look at those sparks between Lawrence and Horo! It has more tension than electricity.

[Lightly_Toasted]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

As I said rules and society do changes. I think you know history well enough to not talk about pre-church era as a similar one to the Church when has risen. I recommend you reading some of sociology to see how even a little time can change society's behaviour as a general unit and as an individual as well.

Horo must have been socially active before Rome's collapse.

Lets see when could it happen shall we:

We all know that in AD 313, the Emperor Constantine made Christianity legal and they were allowed to openly worship, but Horo does not know that meaning that she was active before that, and I do not think I need to tell you hove different is lets say society of AD 200 Rome society from the Chrurch era?

Its like talking about the Self notion change during Socrates and during Descartes era (as you know during Socrates era they did not have had understanding off Self the way it changes during Descartes era and still remains during our times).

The whole society changed quite a lot after Rome's collapse and this affected the individual behaviour as well.

The knowledge that she obtained during the old times while still not completely useless decreased in the usage thus despite living so much and despite traveling before that she can not know how do the youths act since simply poeple behaviour during those times and these were different.

Your forgetting one important fact though, Despite all of Horo's traveling before, with her most recent settling of Pasroe(now I have not read the light novels) but Horo seems to be active in helping the village out, and in the story she is even seen shaking hands with what appears to be a young boy. So the gap at which Horo has been interacting with the youth is not that grand. Also remember, Spice and Wolf seems to almost take place in a time similar to the Renaissance. So Amanti's behavior seems very knightly and old fashioned. Behavior which Horo seems to know very well, since she is always telling Lawrence how he should be her knight, and act, almost like a typical love-struck man would react to a girl with Horo's beauty and allure. But what makes him different is that he doesn't act like putty in Horo's hands. He thinks about consequences. Vs Amati, who would give away a good amount of his fortune for a girl whom he barely knows.

[Darknemo2000]

Shaking hands happened when the contract was made and thus happened a while ago so it doesn't mean she has experience in dealing with modern youths.

The second point is much better - that Amiati acts old-fashioned himself - but this is mere our own impresion - and it may still be beyond Horo's grasp.