[Manga] Who is Tobi?

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by ZGoten

However, with the latest chapter's flashback, the Madara-Obito theory got a mature kickback, due to the fact, that Tobi already possessed a full-grown body, just a year at max after Obito's death (if I didn't mess up on the timeline).

I think Tobi's appearance in the flashback actually supports the Obito theory. Obito is Kakashi's age and Kakashi is about 14 years older than Naruto. This is around the time when kids have their growth spurt, so it's not hard to believe that Obito would grow taller in the time period since Kakashi Gaiden (just as Naruto grew taller between parts 1 and 2).

But still, 14 is young enough that the shape of the body would be somewhat of a giveaway as to the identity of Tobi. And I think Kishimoto realized this, and for that very reason he dressed Tobi in a baggy cloak. There is a reason why Tobi isn't dressed as he usually is, and it is because the smallness of his frame needed to be concealed.

[james0246]

^Basing a plot point around a growth spurt seems extremely silly. I'm not saying that it is impossible, but it would be very weird...

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by james0246

^Basing a plot point around a growth spurt seems extremely silly. I'm not saying that it is impossible, but it would be very weird...

I'm not sure what's silly about it. If the Tobi=Obito theory is correct, then it would be rational (not silly at all) for Kishimoto to consider Tobi's appearance in this flashback, given Obito's age.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

I'm not sure what's silly about it. If the Tobi=Obito theory is correct, then it would be rational (not silly at all) for Kishimoto to consider Tobi's appearance in this flashback, given Obito's age.

Constructing an entire plot point around a character growing 20 centimeters (and gaining a half of a body) in under a year just seems very silly and a little superficial to me. The designs are supposed to be purposeful, so such a minute change just seems so...uncreative (I can just imagine the conversation Kishimoto had with himself: "Hm, what makes Tobi unique from Obito? I got it, he's slightly taller!"; and his brother will be in the background screaming "You go bro! Make that character design slightly taller! That'll show 'em!!!"; etc) even if it is "logical".

To each their own, though. Such a plot point would leave a bad taste in my mouth, but if you like it, then good on you.

[TheCoconutChef]

Originally Posted by dachy

one thing that make that this theory confusing

first of all in the manga and the anime itself depict Izuna dead and eyeless
Proof of this is Madara eyes have healed.

- Why does Tobi only have on eye? It would suggest Izuna got one / kept one one way or another.

- In the event that Madara only got one, it might explain its defeat at the hand of the First. It's also a middle ground between Tobi's version of the event and Itachi's version.

- Why does Tobi keeps his mask at this point? Would not proving he was Madara (even though physical appearence doesn't prove a lot in this manga) be an advantage?

- Madara was believed to be dead up until recently, just like Uzina. And as far as I know, the first Hokage should know when he kill someone. It's a weak argument though.

- Who else could be in the coffin Kabuto brought up? I can only see Madara.

- We actually never see Izuna dead. We do see him laying eyeless though.

- Of what we know of Izuna's personnality, wanting peace seems more fitting to his character than it is to Madara.

- He was explicitaly stated to be as strong as Madara.

- There is very, very little reason to introduce the character of Izuna if not for that plot twist alone.

- As far as we know, flashback do not necessarly tell the whole truth all the time.

See: - the night of the Uchiha massacre
- two different version of the Uchiha clan story, one told by Itachi, the other by Tobi

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by james0246

Constructing an entire plot point around a character growing 20 centimeters (and gaining a half of a body) in under a year just seems very silly and a little superficial to me.

Truthfully, we can't tell how tall Tobi is in the flashback. So, while 20 cm is still a very reasonable number for a growth spurt, it's pretty much just a 'straw man' number.

The designs are supposed to be purposeful,

But that's the point. If Tobi=Obito turns out to be true, then concealing Tobi's height and build by dressing him in a cloak does have a purpose - namely ensuring that the character designs match the timeline.

so such a minute change just seems so...uncreative

I'm not sure I would describe anatomical consistency as either creative or uncreative..

(I can just imagine the conversation Kishimoto had with himself: "Hm, what makes Tobi unique from Obito? I got it, he's slightly taller!"; and his brother will be in the background screaming "You go bro! Make that character design slightly taller! That'll show 'em!!!"; etc) even if it is "logical".

Or maybe he would just say to himself "Obito would be around 14 during during this point of the story, so his appearance should reflect that"

To each their own, though. Such a plot point would leave a bad taste in my mouth, but if you like it, then good on you.

It doesn't really have to do with likes or dislikes, but with the lack of any good alternative theories. Kishimoto has spent a great deal of time concealing Tobi/Madara's identity and teasing us with glimpses of parts of his face. To reveal an aged Madara underneath the mask serves no purpose. What kind of plot device would that qualify as? It's not irony; it's not dramatic irony; it's not a red herring (it's the opposite of a red herring). Tobi/Madara = Madara wouldn't provide us with any revelation other than the provocative thought that Madara developed a weird mask fetish over the years.

[dachy]

Originally Posted by TheCoconutChef

- Why does Tobi only have on eye? It would suggest Izuna got one / kept one one way or another.

- In the event that Madara only got one, it might explain its defeat at the hand of the First. It's also a middle ground between Tobi's version of the event and Itachi's version.

- Why does Tobi keeps his mask at this point? Would not proving he was Madara (even though physical appearence doesn't prove a lot in this manga) be an advantage?

- Madara was believed to be dead up until recently, just like Uzina. And as far as I know, the first Hokage should know when he kill someone. It's a weak argument though.

- Who else could be in the coffin Kabuto brought up? I can only see Madara.

- We actually never see Izuna dead. We do see him laying eyeless though.

- Of what we know of Izuna's personnality, wanting peace seems more fitting to his character than it is to Madara.

- He was explicitaly stated to be as strong as Madara.

- There is very, very little reason to introduce the character of Izuna if not for that plot twist alone.

- As far as we know, flashback do not necessarly tell the whole truth all the time.

See: - the night of the Uchiha massacre
- two different version of the Uchiha clan story, one told by Itachi, the other by Tobi

Your first point "why does tobi only have on eye" doesn't strongly support izuna at all. In fact it only strengthens the fact it might be obito's body. WE all remember him giving kakashi his eye.

And saying that Izuna might have got an eye is stretching what is written and shown to what we think.

All though flashbacks are different they all do hold a sense of truth. Sasuke only knows what happens through his perspective as well as tobi. The situation between killer and victim are always different.

But i do agree that Madara is the only other person i see coming out of kabuto's coffin.

But that makes the obito theory that much more believable.

Tobi is in fact Madara as he claims but in Obito's body which explains the one eye. There might be connection between that.

An come on, you can spell tobi with the letters in obito, That is a major clue in identifying Which people make up tobi

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

Truthfully, we can't tell how tall Tobi is in the flashback. So, while 20 cm is still a very reasonable number for a growth spurt, it's pretty much just a 'straw man' number.

Actually, just looking at how much Naruto, Sasuke, and the other genin changed in height over 2.5/3 years (from 13 to 15-16 years old), 20 cm is a drastic, almost unrealistic for the series, change in height. Specifically, it took Naruto 2.5/3 years to gain 20 cm. During the same time period, Sasuke only gained 15 cm. And the other Konoha 12 followed a similar path, generally only growing 10-15 cm within a longer time period than Obito's death and the Kyuubi attack (1 year).

Personally, I think you are wrong in how you are looking at these heights. Specifically, the heights are based off of average Japanese growth patterns. Consequently, it is extremely unlikely that Obito would grow 20 cm in a year or less.

That being said, this character in 500/501 is most probably Tobi, and Tobi's height is known (Data Book 3 confirmed the height at 175 cm (the Narutopedia page combines Tobi and Madara's information, but in reality only Tobi's height was given in the book, with Madara's information left undisclosed))...

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

It doesn't really have to do with likes or dislikes, but with the lack of any good alternative theories. Kishimoto has spent a great deal of time concealing Tobi/Madara's identity and teasing us with glimpses of parts of his face. To reveal an aged Madara underneath the mask serves no purpose. What kind of plot device would that qualify as? It's not irony; it's not dramatic irony; it's not a red herring (it's the opposite of a red herring). Tobi/Madara = Madara wouldn't provide us with any revelation other than the provocative thought that Madara developed a weird mask fetish over the years.

Actually, Obito would be the red herring...

Something is obviously up with Tobi, that much is clear. But, Obito is such an obvious answer, that, to me at least, if Obito is in any way connected to Tobi, I will feel majorly jipped. People have been predicting that Tobi was Obito since the character was introduced back during the end of the Rescue Gaara arc. For Kishimoto to confirm that hypothesis now, after dragging us through all this Madara crap, would be the silliest writing.

Tobi will be something, but I doubt he will simply be a wrinkled old man, or Obito...

[Artimus_Prime]

A couple of questions...

1. Obitio activated his sharingan with 2 tomoe (i always thought this was significant, sorta suggesting his talent as an uchiha cuz i figured a first time activation would start with only 1 tomoe in each eye)...

but at the start of chap 425, obito is seen with what looks like 3 tomoe. is this the case? did his eyes evolve soon after activating sharingan?

2. Whats the timeline for obitos death, kyuubi attack, minato becoming hokage?

[madv2c]

I can't believe people are still discussing Obito as a possibility. Aside from the cloaked man's appearance, notice his mannerisms, and his demeanor-- it's obviously an experienced adult. Not only would Obito have to grow at astonishing rates to match the masked man's physique, he would also have to mature mentally.

Madara says he's been planning the attack for a long time, and quite frankly you would need to to pull it off. Not to mention, Obito's voice would be instantly recognized by Minato.. and Obito is not even in the same level as Minato in terms of strength; it's ridiculous to say he could run circles around him like he did.

A child of Obito's age, and personality just doesn't have the capacity to pull off what we all know is Madara's doing.

[herculan]

Guys, It can NOT be madara... Even if you forget about all the evidence.. THe fact that even after the ''masked guy'' calls himself madara, everyone still calls him '' the masked guy''.. IS enough proof.. If kishi wanted you to accept that he is madara then he would make kushina, minato, naruto, anko and her squad and many many more.. simply say madara ...

+ how do you know its a year or less since obito ''died''?
Minato wasn''t hokage back then and we don't really have any other measure points.. Do we know how old kakashi was when naruto was born or something? As far as we know it could be 3years since obito's death... :P ??

EDIT: And for the theory of madara being in the coffin.. The jutsu uses the soul not the body to create a fake body and then to use it in combat.. So if you believe that madara was in that coffin( what I believe) then you can't believe that tobi is obito's body + madara's mind since madara's mind is already in the coffin.. Dead zone..

[ZGoten]

Originally Posted by madv2c

I can't believe people are still discussing Obito as a possibility. Aside from the cloaked man's appearance, notice his mannerisms, and his demeanor-- it's obviously an experienced adult. Not only would Obito have to grow at astonishing rates to match the masked man's physique, he would also have to mature mentally.

You're still ignoring the fact, that Madara might just possess Obito's body. However, I don't think that's the case either anymore.

There is something fishy about him, though, and for me the fishiest thing about him, is that he was introduced to Akatsuki as a new member, yet he ordered Pain around, without being the leader of the group, nor the founder. Did he have ties to Pain before he joined? Did he somehow blackmaled Pain? I mean they even had different goals, they wanted to achieve different things once they had all the bijuus, yet they had still cooperated. Kishimoto never touched on how their relationship came to be and what it really was, and that still bucks me to date. Is it bad writing, to just not care about all those missing information, like with the Rin'negan, or is it possible, that Tobi's identity lies hidden within that missing information, so that Kishimoto hasn't told us all about it intentionally?

[TheCoconutChef]

Originally Posted by dachy

Your first point "why does tobi only have on eye" doesn't strongly support izuna at all. In fact it only strengthens the fact it might be obito's body. WE all remember him giving kakashi his eye.

And saying that Izuna might have got an eye is stretching what is written and shown to what we think.

All though flashbacks are different they all do hold a sense of truth. Sasuke only knows what happens through his perspective as well as tobi. The situation between killer and victim are always different.

But i do agree that Madara is the only other person i see coming out of kabuto's coffin.

But that makes the obito theory that much more believable.

Tobi is in fact Madara as he claims but in Obito's body which explains the one eye. There might be connection between that.

An come on, you can spell tobi with the letters in obito, That is a major clue in identifying Which people make up tobi

- If having a flashback scene in witch we see Uzina laying on his back with bandages over his eye is proof enough for you that he's not a candidate, why is Obito dying in front of our eye not proof enough? As far as I'm concerned, this kid his dead and his right eye got crushed. That wasn't flashback, that was in front of our eyes. It was what allowed Kakashi to "grow" as a character (wow, I just admited a character grew in Naruto).

- If it turned out that Obita was alive, why would his first reflex NOT be to come back to the village at once. There is no motivation what so ever for this character to become what Tobi is. Character wize this makes no sense at all. The only thing supporting the Obito theory is the fact that Tobi has a right eye. But remember, the very little we've seen from Tobi's face, he was obviously much older than Kakashi, when they're supposed to be the same age.

So not only is this not Obito, it's not Obito's body either.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by herculan

+ how do you know its a year or less since obito ''died''?

Itachi was 4 when the war was fought, and he was 5 when the Kyuubi struck; Kakashi was 13 when he became Jounin (and fought in the war), and he was 14 when the Kyuubi struck (he was 26 when the series started, which was 12 years after Kyuubi attack; 26-12=14). So there is a year or so there in which Obito died and Tobi was revealed.

Originally Posted by herculan

EDIT: And for the theory of madara being in the coffin.. The jutsu uses the soul not the body to create a fake body and then to use it in combat.. So if you believe that madara was in that coffin( what I believe) then you can't believe that tobi is obito's body + madara's mind since madara's mind is already in the coffin.. Dead zone..

Your correct. Tobi is Madara's body with the Jyuubi's mind . Which is a far more acceptable and interesting theory than all this Obito crap...

[dachy]

Originally Posted by TheCoconutChef

- If having a flashback scene in witch we see Uzina laying on his back with bandages over his eye is proof enough for you that he's not a candidate, why is Obito dying in front of our eye not proof enough? As far as I'm concerned, this kid his dead and his right eye got crushed. That wasn't flashback, that was in front of our eyes. It was what allowed Kakashi to "grow" as a character (wow, I just admited a character grew in Naruto).

- If it turned out that Obita was alive, why would his first reflex NOT be to come back to the village at once. There is no motivation what so ever for this character to become what Tobi is. Character wize this makes no sense at all. The only thing supporting the Obito theory is the fact that Tobi has a right eye. But remember, the very little we've seen from Tobi's face, he was obviously much older than Kakashi, when they're supposed to be the same age.

So not only is this not Obito, it's not Obito's body either.

First off Obito's body is tobi for madara spirit or whatever, i'm not suggesting that Tobi is the actual obito.

And everyon though madara died obviously he still around, who is to say that obito didn't survive either or that is his body didnt survive.

[james0246]

^The difference is we saw Obito's body thoroughly crushed whereas we only heard from secondary and tertiary sources that Madara died. In other words, despite his apparent defeat, we never actually saw Madara's battle, so we cannot base any conclusions off of an encounter we have never witnessed.

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by james0246

Your correct. Tobi is Madara's body with the Jyuubi's mind . Which is a far more acceptable and interesting theory than all this Obito crap...

Yes, the jyuubi mind trick theory is very interesting...the original ultimate evil split into several parts by the hero, then spending the next thousand years trying to get back into the game...at the very least it partially explains the masked guy's rant, "do you have ANY idea how long i've waited for this moment?!"

But it could just as well be a Madara mind trick

[Neji112]

Not that I'm particularly hoping that Madara is Obito but anytime you're dealing with the Sharingan anything is possible. I mean Kakashi's Kumai and Madara's dimensional whatnot are pretty similar. Who's to say Obito's body didn't get sucked into another dimension by his eyes own power where his body grew outside of the regular passage of time. Again it's the Sharingan we're talking about, adding time travel/dimensional warping to it's list of ridiculous powers wouldn't be a stretch.

Anyways personally I think whoever Madara is, it can't be a recognizable, Uchiha of the last 10 years seeing that Itachi would have realized he missed someone during the Massacre. I like the idea of Madara's body possessed 10 tails spirit however I doubt the 10 tails would have been as obsessed with Sharingans as Madara currently is, especially since he had access to the almighty Rinnegan which in theory should be more powerful and has a closer connection to the beasts final imprisonment.

[dachy]

correct me if i'm wrong Tobi must be an Uchiha or a sharingan wielder if not this post is useless

Is it madara Most likely, but not completely madara. " a mere shell of his former past"

Is it Izuna most likely not. Why, because he has no eyes and Tobi is illustrated to have at least one.

Obito probably, that would explain the one eye, it fits the time line, even the looks when we catch a glimpse of Tobi's face.

Im thinking our culprit is half of obito and half madara, but not like soul and body im thinking like a zetsu sort of think like exactly half is madara and half is Obito LOL

Just kidding, but i think its a mix of the 2

[TheCoconutChef]

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

Yes, the jyuubi mind trick theory is very interesting...the original ultimate evil split into several parts by the hero, then spending the next thousand years trying to get back into the game...at the very least it partially explains the masked guy's rant, "do you have ANY idea how long i've waited for this moment?!"

But it could just as well be a Madara mind trick

Was the Jiuuby shown / talked about in the manga?

Edit: Found it.

I like the idea, it make sense story wise. What it doesn't tell me is what was in the coffin and who's body is the ten-tail controling. How clearly is it staded that the tenth element of the Jiuuby is within the moon?