Boku wa Tomodachi ga Sukunai NEXT - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll

[Tenchi Ryu]

Originally Posted by finalfury

He could have asked for time to make a decision.

There is no decision, that's the point. It's not that someone will get rejected, ALL of them would get rejected.

Kodaka just doesn't seem interested in a relationship at all, yet these girls keep pushing it on him. Sena was told straight up he only wants friends and doesn't care about having a girlfriend. She confesses to him anyway...Didn't even listen to his earlier opinion.

[AC-Phoenix]

What he says is not necessarily what he thinks.

[ellessarr]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Ryu

There is no decision, that's the point. It's not that someone will get rejected, ALL of them would get rejected.

Kodaka just doesn't seem interested in a relationship at all, yet these girls keep pushing it on him. Sena was told straight up he only wants friends and doesn't care about having a girlfriend. She confesses to him anyway...Didn't even listen to his earlier opinion.

why you are trying so hard to prove who kodaka dont have a "problem" like the girls, at last mine reason to hate him is not because i like sena, but because kodaka clear showed who he have a big issui about to accept the "reallity" like when rikka talked to him about to accept who he already have friends and he run, like many peoples pointed kodaka suffer from the same issue of his little sister he unable to be true "sociable" he fear have "true friends"(not only girlfriend) he want have friend but can't handly with this, instead he prefer to pretend who he just still trying to make friends(even if their already) this is the root of problem, kodaka have some sort of trauma like yozora who can't allow him accept true friends or lovers, kodaka in some of his speechs for himself already showed who he want have girlfriend but he first need friend, but he already have friends and this scary him because this means who he is "growning" and for now he fear this.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by ellessarr

why you are trying so hard to prove who kodaka dont have a "problem" like the girls, at last mine reason to hate him is not because i like sena, but because kodaka clear showed who he have a big issui about to accept the "reallity" like when rikka talked to him about to accept who he already have friends and he run, like many peoples pointed kodaka suffer from the same issue of his little sister he unable to be true "sociable" he fear have "true friends"(not only girlfriend) he want have friend but can't handly with this, instead he prefer to pretend who he just still trying to make friends(even if their already) this is the root of problem, kodaka have some sort of trauma like yozora who can't allow him accept true friends or lovers, kodaka in some of his speechs for himself already showed who he want have girlfriend but he first need friend, but he already have friends and this scary him because this means who he is "growning" and for now he fear this.

Rikka hinted this too btw by comparing Kodaka to his little sister.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by Okashira

There is the implication that Sena wanted Aoi to fight back her "threats" and stand up against her; in other words Sena might holds hopes of having a "Yozora-like" relationship with more than one girl (which also hints that she values their bickering to a good degree (aka friends)).

Seems Sena has two levels for friendship, one for equals (you have to be part of the elite, able to trade blows with the best) and one of not equals, where the other part is so cute she wants to lick her

[potchip]

And apparently people who wants to maintain de facto instead of marriage have 'issues', too?

Get this, Kodaka is happy to enjoy the benefits of friendship, but do not want to officially admit the status because doing so gives some other girls an inch and they'll take a mile. The same with de facto, the added legal and expectational baggage that comes with a 'marriage' just don't do it for some people.

He's perfectly entitled to do this, mind you. Maybe he's not as 'good' a person as initially portrayed to be (say addin some selfish streak), but there's aboslutely nothing wrong with not being the perfect harem lead. Nobody said he is supposed to be a saint, hell none of the other girls are, so why should he. In fact Kodaka's issue, as you tried to allude to, is not accepting friendships or having a deeper connnection, but it's to do with Forced Change by external forces. Basically next eposide will put that argument about him having issue connecting to people to rest. But he still need to face his fear of change.

And keep telling yourself you are not shipping. Ironically just what Doctor Kodaka prescribed.

[frivolity]

Marriage is a completely different issue from friendship and should not be likened to it. The former is a contractual agreement that carries implications and responsibilities that are legally binding, as well as a number of fairly established social norms, while the latter is simply a mutual relationship that is non-binding and often transient. As I see it, his refusal to accept the status of friendship is indeed an "issue" - that's what the whole story is about after all. If it weren't an issue, then there wouldn't even be a story to tell because he would just be a normal guy living a normal life.

And no, this isn't a shipping issue. If the confession had come from any other member of the club, we should individually still reach the same conclusion about whether or not his reaction was the right one. Bias does come into play of course, but the core issue itself is unrelated to shipping.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Originally Posted by potchip

And apparently people who wants to maintain de facto instead of marriage have 'issues', too?

Get this, Kodaka is happy to enjoy the benefits of friendship, but do not want to officially admit the status because doing so gives some other girls an inch and they'll take a mile. The same with de facto, the added legal and expectational baggage that comes with a 'marriage' just don't do it for some people.

He's perfectly entitled to do this, mind you. Maybe he's not as 'good' a person as initially portrayed to be (say addin some selfish streak), but there's aboslutely nothing wrong with not being the perfect harem lead. Nobody said he is supposed to be a saint, hell none of the other girls are, so why should he. In fact Kodaka's issue, as you tried to allude to, is not accepting friendships or having a deeper connnection, but it's to do with Forced Change by external forces. Basically next eposide will put that argument about him having issue connecting to people to rest. But he still need to face his fear of change.

And keep telling yourself you are not shipping. Ironically just what Doctor Kodaka prescribed.

Pretty much how I feel. One thing about Kodaka is that he is very honest with himself, just not to others. He has already realized they are friends. He straight up stated this when he left Rika on the roof, stating that he knew ALL ALONG they are friends. So he's not lying about anything. It's the people around him realizing stuff that gets him nervous. There is a reason Sena dropping a MARRIAGE confession dropped the "Oh SH%T" bomb and not a simple "Kodaka can we be friends" question. Everything he has feared has come to light, romance not friendship.

[potchip]

I repeat - his issue is not about acceptinig friendship. He had a good friend. He is about to get a good friend. In the previous occassion, the undoing of his old friendship was due to his fear of change and subsequent procastination. What he will do in this current situation is yet to be seen.

You are arguing about the 'severity' matters as if the hurdle is high enough, then a 'no' is justfied (lol wait, what a subjective argument). I simply stated it is OK to not go down a path by free choice. There's no such thing as unjustified choice. Afterall he's enjoying friendship NOW without admitting to it, just like de facto are enjoying their relationship. If not admitting was a problem for others, then he wouldn't even be enjoying this cake - but all the girls, Rika included are happy to continue the status quo. Until the bomb dropped.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Originally Posted by potchip

If not admitting was a problem for others, then he wouldn't even be enjoying this cake

This IMO is what separates Kodaka from his sister. Kodaka IS enjoying the closeness of this group, because he has passed the personal hurdle of bonding.

Compare that to his sister, she gets people trying to hang out with her, and she completely shuns them. Doesn't talk to them, barely makes eye contact, and would NEVER be seen in an afterschool group doing stuff together. Hell, she didn't even want to make the movie with her group and BAILED from them. Kodaka would literally LOVE to be in Kobato's shoes.

[frivolity]

No, what I am doing is comparing his actions to a general societal standard about an issue, which is friendship. We are looking at a fictional character after all, and analysing his choices accordingly based on societal standards. If you're going to say that there's no such thing as unjustified choice, then that's akin to saying that the characters can't be analysed at all since every choice is justified.

Refusing to acknowledge friendship should not be likened to the decision to maintain a de facto relationship. As I've pointed out earlier, there are justifiable reasons for people to choose not to take the step of registering a marriage because of the legal and social implications of such a move. These reasons do not apply to friendship, however, because these reasons no longer hold. Imagine if someone were to go around telling others, "I don't want to be friends with you because I'm afraid of you falling in love with me." Surely many of us would think there's something wrong with that.

[potchip]

Originally Posted by frivolity

No, what I am doing is comparing his actions to a general societal standard about an issue, which is friendship. We are looking at a fictional character after all, and analysing his choices accordingly based on societal standards. If you're going to say that there's no such thing as unjustified choice, then that's akin to saying that the characters can't be analysed at all since every choice is justified.

And every other character is OK with it, but you, as a viewer, is not, to you his actions are not justfied. Because you want to apply some sort of real life social standards on this fictional character, despite the show saying otherwise.

Wait a sec, ain't you the one a few episodes ago wanted to set up some 'standards council' that is some artificial 'unbaised-subjective-person-view-because-none-of-the-in-show-personalities-are-reliable'?

Way to construct a strawman.

Why?

'I don't want to be friends with you because I'm afraid of you falling in love with me." Surely many of us would think there's something wrong with that.'

There's nothing wrong with that, the social ineptness of such a statement aside - all the other party needs to do is say 'no problems we'll just keep it at friends level' Oh snap not going to work in this case...

[frivolity]

Originally Posted by potchip

And every other character is OK with it, but you, as a viewer, is not, to you his actions are not justfied. Because you want to apply some sort of real life social standards on this fictional character, despite the show saying otherwise.

Wait a sec, ain't you the one a few episodes ago wanted to set up some 'standards council' that is some artificial 'unbaised-subjective-person-view-because-none-of-the-in-show-personalities-are-reliable'?

Why?

What I said a few episodes ago was that we should analyse the characters' actions based on what an "ordinary and reasonable third party in the story" would consider to be correct. This means that we should not be analysing based on what the characters themselves consider to be correct, since these characters are themselves flawed and Kodaka is an unreliable narrator at times. My last post in that thread was a very detailed description of what I meant by that approach.

This is consistent with what I'm saying here, that even if the characters themselves are ok with Kodaka's actions (which actually isn't true based on Rika's reaction), that doesn't mean we as the viewers should automatically accept it as justified. These guys are in the Neighbour's Club for a reason after all, and this very fact already shows that the way they go about approaching friendship is at odds with what the general social standards in Haganai are. If we go with your assertion that there's no such thing as an unjustified choice, then no analysis of their characters can be done at all since every choice is justified. Why then would the club exist at all in the first place?

[finalfury]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Ryu

There is no decision, that's the point. It's not that someone will get rejected, ALL of them would get rejected.

Kodaka just doesn't seem interested in a relationship at all, yet these girls keep pushing it on him. Sena was told straight up he only wants friends and doesn't care about having a girlfriend. She confesses to him anyway...Didn't even listen to his earlier opinion.

Asking for more time to make a decision would be a more acceptable way of dodging the question i think and gives him more time to plan out how to get away from dealing with the confession.
Basically, he dodges the question not by leaving the room, but by extending the deadline of his response in a somewhat acceptable way.

[frivolity]

Originally Posted by finalfury

Asking for more time to make a decision would be a more acceptable way of dodging the question i think and gives him more time to plan out how to get away from dealing with the confession.
Basically, he dodges the question not by leaving the room, but by extending the deadline of his response in a somewhat acceptable way.

I'm not so sure that asking for more time would have led to a better outcome actually. We'd have a very awkward atmosphere, and knowing the girls, they would probably misunderstand and draw incorrect inferences about what his eventual answer would be

[Tenchi Ryu]

Originally Posted by frivolity

I'm not so sure that asking for more time would have led to a better outcome actually. We'd have a very awkward atmosphere, and knowing the girls, they would probably misunderstand and draw incorrect inferences about what his eventual answer would be

Which is the issue at hand IMO. These girls aren't exactly normal, and they probably wouldn't handle the situation normally and probably even maturely either. I could even see both Sena and Yozora distancing themselves from him, and that would tear him up inside thinking it was his fault these people aren't close anymore.

Now if every girl could handle the situation like Rika has, Kodaka would have much better results no matter what he did. But quite frankly, these are some crazy ass females he's dealing with.

[frivolity]

Yea, I don't really have an issue with how he handled the confession, only the whole friendship aspect. Also partly because I've done something similar to someone else before. The confession came as a shock to him (and to Sena too for that matter), and it was reasonable that he would react in a manner that might be considered suboptimal.

I personally think there's no clear-cut answer here. There have been many good arguments in this thread for and against the way Kodaka handled the confession, and the arguments on both sides have merit.

[finalfury]

Originally Posted by frivolity

I'm not so sure that asking for more time would have led to a better outcome actually. We'd have a very awkward atmosphere, and knowing the girls, they would probably misunderstand and draw incorrect inferences about what his eventual answer would be

Never cared for the outcome. Just thought this method suited his personality and if they misunderstand, then tough luck for them.
I'm hoping that the last episode isn't about what I think it's about.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Originally Posted by finalfury

and if they misunderstand, then tough luck for them.

Although I'm right there with you, Kodaka probably doesn't want to hurt them like that, even if it IS their fault if they can't get over it...

[ellessarr]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Ryu

Although I'm right there with you, Kodaka probably doesn't want to hurt them like that, even if it IS their fault if they can't get over it...

and it's not a kodaka fault, not being "clear" of what he wants, just keep hiding the things..., again aways put the guilt on the girls is the easy way...(their also have guilt but the point is everyone have guilt not only girls), is so hard to accept who kodaka have issues too???? if him dont have what was he reason to join?? aways yours are making look who he is innocent of the girls fallen in love with him(for what i watch and read is everyone fault)kodaka never was trully clear when sena asked if him want a girlfriend he dont said who he dont want he said who he want have friends and after ca think about girlfriend(but never was really clear who if a girl come to him to ask date he gonna reject), then rika aways talking with him about this and him aways keep runing, since from the middle or even from beginner was clear who or kodaka is too much dense or him have a really big issue and since he not dense then he have issues like many others harem leaders, his issuis is his incapacity to deal with "reallity"( in this case for friendship and love), he aiming for friends and love but he can't handle with both of then this is what will be showed in next episode if indeed he run from the club and try to joing the student concil gonna be very clear, who it's not like he just being "good" with the girls but he is own self and incapacity to deal with the reality, the way i see the writer doing is like "the life is starting to knock kodakas door" and ask him to "live" but him is runing from this like "i'm not ready yet to have a "normal" life i'm still need my shell of dense where i can do anything i want without care for the world calling.

again runing never was the best soluction this only make the things worse, because now who sena made the confession the others girls gonna sense the same urge and if him just keep runing then their gonna keeping pressure him more and more until the point of or him end harmed or the girls ending harmed, is like the famous snow ball who you throw trought the snow, who fi you dont stop gonna keep rolling and become bigger and bigger until start to destroy everything in ihs way.