Byakugan, Sharingan & Rinnengan

[aptenergy]

Riiiight, so I guess we're all concluding here that Kakashi is equal to the 3rd in ninjutsu, right? That's what the book says.

Except in my opinion I don't think Kakashi was ever at the level of the Hokage in terms of using ninjutsu.

[raikage]

Well, I figure at some point there are no more levels - on a 1-5 star scale even though you might want to give something 7 stars, the review will still say 5.

Spoiler:

Like Dranz said about the Byakugan, its weaknesses aren't even that weak. And, if a Byakugan user is able, s/he can compensate for that weakness.

Personally, I don't think that Neji is done with mastering his Byakugan.
*enter theory not based on evidence in the manga*
We've seen that Hiashi's Kaiten has a far greater range than Neji's, and it only makes sense that the more chakra put into a technique, the bigger/better it gets. With more practice and chakra, the range of the Byakugan may increase beyond the 50m/2km limit seen by the Genins - just as the Sharingan increases in dots based on skill. Of course, I could just as easily be wrong, seeing as how Shikamaru's Kagemane won't extend in range no matter how much more chakra one puts into it.

Finally, the newer conclusion that I've come to based on the past few pages:

The Sharingan is better at one-on-one fighting and quick skill enhancement.

The Byakugan is better at multiple-opponent taijutsu fighting (probably ninjutsu; I'm not too sure) , spying, scouting, detecting traps, and pretty much every other occasion that doesn't require direct combat.

[Ke0]

Originally Posted by Nine Devil

No it seems so. If Hiashi is the strongest of Hyuuga, and he is.

No, it means Hiashi is the strongest current Byakugan user, by the ways things are going, Neji is easily going to be stronger, and if you disagree, then that means you would also have to disagree about Sasuke being able to kill Itachi, because right now Sasuke is weaker than Neji, he has to cheat to get power he's so pathetic.

Besides Hizashi is a tad stronger than Hiyashi, even Kishimoto's book shows this.

Be as we all know Itachi is the strongest guy ever and like it would be impossbile for anyone to be stronger than him, and it would also be impossible that there is more to the Byagukan than what's shown so far.

Itachi mastered Sharigan at 10

What does that have to do with Neji? Does Neji have Sharigan? No, is Neji Itach? No, using that whole "Itachi mastered Sharigan at 10 crap" I guess Sasuke has mastered his Sharigan then

[Unidentified]

There are too many people who like the sharingan. As there are too many peopel who don't read the manga. Probably because Neji "was" an ass and we've only seen a genin hyuga, and the anime kind of made Hiashi seem weak by prolonging his kaiten by say about the whol entire time it was shown, it was only 1 panel in the manga. And the anime people are overreacting towards Itachi simple as that.

Who sasy there ins't more to the byukagan? It hasn't even been shown some of the abilities Kakashi says they have. Like increasing chakra flow. We haven't seen an example of that. We haven't seen a lot of things that has been said, and I'm definitely sure there are more movees. Even as of now with what the byukagan can do according to Kakashi it's better. But there are more moves possible that can do what has been said. How about incrasing your flow? It would be like the curse seal, forcing out chakra. They can do a lot of things that has been said but Neji hasn't learned, unless you're saying Kakashi is lying?

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Ke0

He didn't sense Sasuke, he heard him, I mean the guy was screaming Naruto and running pretty hard, you'd have to be an idiot not to hear him coming.

Sasuke wasn't screaming at all and the two others didn't notice him before Itachi said he was here.

You could say the Byakugan does have increased perception as well, like when Neji pretty much described Naruto's feelings, Neji doesn't know Naruto, he only met the kid at the Chunnin exams, before that he never knew Naruto, he's only seem him for a short time.

Neji describing Naruto's feeling? For god sake he thought that Naruto was scared to be close to him during their fight and that he was the one standing away.

Originally Posted by aptenergy

Um, Hunter... speculation != truth.

No way?

We have no idea how the Byakugan responds to genjutsu. What is it susceptible to? What can it see through? Can anyone provide me with an example of Neji or Hinata or Hizashi or Hiashi even encountering genjutsu?

We have no idea how the Byakugan responds to ghost either.
And that's exatly why until the manga states a new bloodline's ability, it doesn't have it.
And anyway to know that you're in a genjutsu doesn't help you.

Think about Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan. If Byakugan were to see the eye, according to people here, it would see the surface of the eye, the chakra coil system behind the eye, the flesh behind the eye, the stuff 50 feet in back of the Sharingan user, etc. etc. At what point does the genjutsu completely overwhelm the Byakugan user? Is it what's in the pupil? The cornea? The rods and cones of the three spots (I have no idea what they're called)?

Oh wait, we have no documentation of where that "overwhelming" happens. My point is that everyone should just sit and wait for an answer from Kishimoto. We're constantly hearing stuff from both sides about how good each side is, yet nothing has been settled. Either Kishimoto will settle the issue by having them fight, or he's going to give people more reasons to polarize themselves over whatever they like (or leave everything as it is, in which case people still debate over this issue).

Actually, we do have information about that,

Spoiler:

there are 5 kind of genjutsu which attack the 5 senses.
Tayuya's genjutsu works with sound, if you heard them, you're taken into it, the Tsukiyomi is a dojutsu, if you see the pupils, you're taken into it.
Simple as that.

And also, Neji is the only one who is known for looking at people's eyes and interpreting their feelings. "Everyone can do that," sure, but I'm guessing that the fact that only Neji is noted for doing it (maybe someone has 300 examples to prove the opposite) means that it's something that Neji is very good at. Since I have no evidence otherwise to indicate that this is just an aspect of his personality, I'm guessing that it's attributed to the fact that he has Byakugan.

Re-read my post, I said that to interpret the movements of someone isn't a Byakugan ability but that the Byakugan would help to do so because of its abilities to see every details with its great insight.
And that's something that a Sharingan can as well.
And yes even without bloodline (because this way to analyze moves is an irl stuff lol) to see how eyes moves, if someone touches his lips, if someone put his hands in front of him as to defend himself, etc. isn't so incredibly hard.

I find it hard to believe that the increased insight that Byakugan gives is limited to seeing chakra flowing through objects. Insight has a much more mental aspect to it; it's not just X-ray vision. The Sharingan offers mental insight because you can identify, analyze, predict and imitate jutsu.

Why?
Did the manga ever hinted that the Byakugan would have new capacities?
The last time was during the volume 12, since now 13 volumes, the only things added to the Byakugan were its extents.

Does that means that the Byakugan will never has new abilities? No-one can say that except Kishimoto, but for the moment it has not.
When you judge an ability, you do it with what you know of the ability, not with what you hope that it will be.

And by the way, it's really not that easy to quickly interpret that much information from people's eyes. Neji was reading and interpreting in real time with what everyone accepts as 100% accuracy. Try it yourself. Sure, you can detect hesitation, but it's not as simple to make the conclusions he was making.

And like he showed with Naruto, Neji's conclusion can be dead wrong ^^

Originally Posted by raikage

Finally, the newer conclusion that I've come to based on the past few pages:

The Sharingan is better at one-on-one fighting and quick skill enhancement.

The Byakugan is better at multiple-opponent taijutsu fighting (probably ninjutsu; I'm not too sure) , spying, scouting, detecting traps, and pretty much every other occasion that doesn't require direct combat.

I pretty much agree with that, with a little difference though.
Like you I think that the Byakugan is better at first with everything that doesn't require direct combat (or Taijutsu of course), but that can change when a Sharingan master copy a new jutsu which can 'upgrade' him in a particular field of ability.

Originally Posted by Unidentified

Who sasy there ins't more to the byukagan?

For the Xth time, if you're soooo persuaded that the Byakugan is better, why do you need hypothetic new abilities?

It hasn't even been shown some of the abilities Kakashi says they have. Like increasing chakra flow. We haven't seen an example of that. We haven't seen a lot of things that has been said, and I'm definitely sure there are more movees. Even as of now with what the byukagan can do according to Kakashi it's better. But there are more moves possible that can do what has been said. How about incrasing your flow? It would be like the curse seal, forcing out chakra. They can do a lot of things that has been said but Neji hasn't learned, unless you're saying Kakashi is lying?

Indeed there are more moves, as you said Kakashi spoke about others way to use the Jyuken.
But that's not new Byakugan's abilities, that's new way to use the same abilities.

[nh1]

Originally Posted by Hunter

And anyway to know that you're in a genjutsu doesn't help you.

So it seems at least against Tsukiyomi, although it helped both Kurenai and

Spoiler:

Shikamaru.

Actually, we do have information about that,

Spoiler:

there are 5 kind of genjutsu which attack the 5 senses.
Tayuya's genjutsu works with sound, if you heard them, you're taken into it, the Tsukiyomi is a dojutsu, if you see the pupils, you're taken into it.
Simple as that.

I don't think it is... I think the Sharingan user has to look into your pupils as well. If someone happens to see his eye, they shouldn't be caught.

[Ke0]

Originally Posted by Hunter

For the Xth time, if you're soooo persuaded that the Byakugan is better, why do you need hypothetic new abilities?

It's like saying who's a better basketball player Iverson or McGrady. I show you all of Iverson's moves and countless tapes, then I show you like 3 of McGrady's moves and about 4 minutes of him actually playing, then telling you, since this is all you've seen of McGrady so far, this is all he has to offer

Because you guys keep comparing Itachi's Sharigan and the fact that we SEEN all his amazing Mange Sharigan attacks, to..........Neji, last time I checked Neji hasn't mastered his Byakugan, then you compare it to Hiyashi's which we only see 5 seconds of actual combat with him, then we add in that Hizashi is probably the stronger of the two brothers, hence Neji pretty much being the strongest kid Hyuuga at the moment because Hiyashi's kids are so damn weak.

Another thing I noticed, the Uchiha clan was feared because of Itachi, when people talked about the Uchiha clan, it's just about Itachi, no one else in that clan is ever talked about as being powerful, seems like Itachi is a one off type of thing.

Anyways, until we see more of the anime/manga, it stands now that the Sharigan is stronger in certain aspects than the Byakugan, but give the series more time before we have another discussion like this. Besides Neji wasn't called the strongest kid in Konoha for nothing. Sasuke was the strongest in his class, but Neji was the strongest kid in Konoha, but that's not suppose to be right, because Sasuke is a Uchiha

Also about the Sharigan just copying something and bam the user is God, they still have to train months. Look at Sasuke using Rock's speed, he uses it for 5 minutes, and he's having asthma attacks

[nh1]

Originally Posted by Ke0

Anyways, until we see more of the anime/manga, it stands now that the Sharigan is stronger in certain aspects than the Byakugan, but give the series more time before we have another discussion like this. Besides Neji wasn't called the strongest kid in Konoha for nothing.

It does? Then I think the Sharingan is stronger than the Byakugan, because I don't think Kishimoto is going to focus much more on the Byakugan instead of the Sharingan. However, I disagree with you. I don't see how Sharingan is stronger, to me, that still remains unclarified. Of course, it could be that there are other abilities to the Byakugan, but I still think it can compete with the Sharingan as it is now, so in my opinion, it doesn't need anything else.

[Coder8]

Wasnt Neji called the Strongest Genin? also by her teammate tenten,that seems alittle baised.

[nh1]

Nr. 1 Rookie, just like Sasuke was the Nr. 1 Rookie. Neji wasn't a rookie anymore. Also, if you want to argue against it, Sasuke was no match for Neji at the time, as stated by Kakashi (He should know, since he and Sasuke "are the same"). I don't think Sasuke's speed boost would help him much against Neji either (I think the easy speed boost thingy, goes for both clans), but this is a Byakugan vs. Sharingan not a Sasuke vs. Neji, so I'll stop going off topic

[Ke0]

Originally Posted by nh1

It does? Then I think the Sharingan is stronger than the Byakugan, because I don't think Kishimoto is going to focus much more on the Byakugan instead of the Sharingan. However, I disagree with you. I don't see how Sharingan is stronger, to me, that still remains unclarified. Of course, it could be that there are other abilities to the Byakugan, but I still think it can compete with the Sharingan as it is now, so in my opinion, it doesn't need anything else.

I didn't say it was stronger, I said it was stronger in certain aspects, the rest is up to you to decide which is stronger, personally if theoretically you could have either one, I'd much rather take the Byakugan

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by nh1

So it seems at least against Tsukiyomi, although it helped both Kurenai and

Spoiler:

Shikamaru.

Even in the case of a simple genjutsu it didn't help at all, it's the pain which helped to escape the genjutsu, not the fact that they knew that it was an illusion.

I don't think it is... I think the Sharingan user has to look into your pupils as well. If someone happens to see his eye, they shouldn't be caught.

Hmm in the other hand, this is indeed possible.
Personally I don't think so because I think that if Kakashi said to both Asuma and Kurenai to close their eyes, it was because the Tsukiyomi (or this kind of jutsu anyway) can be used on several target at once.

Originally Posted by Ke0

Another thing I noticed, the Uchiha clan was feared because of Itachi, when people talked about the Uchiha clan, it's just about Itachi, no one else in that clan is ever talked about as being powerful, seems like Itachi is a one off type of thing.

Indeed, the Uchiha were known as the unmatched clan because a single guy of this clan was very strong
Get real 3s, if the Uchiha clan was only known to be able to have one strong ninja who whiped them all in a single night, they would be known as the laughable clan, not the most superior clan, not the fearest clan, not the stronger clan, etc.

Seriously re-read the manga, Zabuza, Kakashi, Orochimaru, Lee, Itachi or the rest of the arena including Daymio and ninja leader didn't want to see Sasuke, they wanted to see an Uchiha, when Oro impersonating Kagekaze said that no opponent but an Uchiha could show off Sand's ninjas capacities, you didn't see the 3rd thinking what the hell this moron is saying either.
Every single time that Sasuke does something hard/cool/great/etc. there is someone (Gai, Lee, Kakashi, Oro, etc.) who said Hmmm so that's the Uchiha clan!

No one ever speaks about Itachi when they talk about the genius Uchiha clan.

Also about the Sharigan just copying something and bam the user is God, they still have to train months. Look at Sasuke using Rock's speed, he uses it for 5 minutes, and he's having asthma attacks

Firstly, speed is a body capacity, it's something that you can't copy.
Then Lee's in the same boat as Sasuke.

The high speed of Lee drains his stamina as much as for Sasuke, the only difference is their respective amount of stamina.
And during his fight with Gaara, Lee started to look tired because of this kind of speed almost immediately, even before Gaara used the armor of Sand.
Exactly as Sasuke actually.

Both of them were out of breath just after their second blow on Gaara's face.

&

Both of them can't keep this kind of speed too long.

[Coder8]

Hunter, knowing that your in a genjutsu IS VERY benefitul(sp).

Spoiler:

If shikimaru didnt know he was in a genjutsu he wouldnt have known to break his finger to escape it. Or do you think he would just random break it anyways

[nh1]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Personally I don't think so because I think that if Kakashi said to both Asuma and Kurenai to close their eyes, it was because the Tsukiyomi (or this kind of jutsu anyway) can be used on several target at once.

Well, that'd be a disatvantage for Itachi, he'd use it on more than 3 and collapse. They don't even have to be his strongest oponents, they could even be non-ninjas. I think the user has to see into the oponents pupils, because the genjutsu isn't pre-set (doesn't seem like it), Itachi could be torn out of reality and into his own genjutsu against his will

Oh! I also think Naruto will overcome the Tsukiyomi if it will ever be used against him. Well, it could happen, since that would be another example on how important a strong will really is.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Coder8

Hunter, knowing that your in a genjutsu IS VERY benefitul(sp).

Spoiler:

If shikimaru didnt know he was in a genjutsu he wouldnt have known to break his finger to escape it. Or do you think he would just random break it anyways

Actually in this case, it doesn't matter, he couldn't ignore it.

Spoiler:

re-read this part of the manga, it's impossible not to know that the weird universe wasn't a genjutsu lol

Now, we can imagine a Genjutsu which would seem perfectly like the real world, and which wouldn't paralyze the opponent.
In this case it could be useful to know that the character than you see aren't real (because they wouldn't have chakra system or something like that).

[Coder8]

lol i knew that soon as i wrote it ;D i was going to feebly argue that they all had weird abilities....but ;D that didnt seem like a possiblity.
Hmmm i wonder tho...Do you think each GenJutsu has a counter? If so then all GenJutsu are probally listed....why else would Kureani be surprised Itachi ued GenJutsu counter...?
(I love skirting what is and what could be a spoiler ;D)

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by nh1

Well, that'd be a disatvantage for Itachi, he'd use it on more than 3 and collapse. They don't even have to be his strongest oponents, they could even be non-ninjas. I think the user has to see into the oponents pupils, because the genjutsu isn't pre-set (doesn't seem like it), Itachi could be torn out of reality and into his own genjutsu against his will

No it would be the same Tsukiyomi, only used on several person propulsed inside the illusion world at the same time.

I plainly agree with the fact that Itachi could be torn out of reality by his own Genjutsu, actually, I think that it's the true reason why he mustn't use this jutsu too many times and not just because it uses much chakra.

The concentration to create a world like that must be incredible, and the more time Itachi tortures the mind of someone inside this illusion world, the more time his mind must be concentrated.
Think about it, if Itachi took Kakashi during 3 days, his mind must be inside the Tsukiyomi during 3 days as well.
And if you're exhausted by this gigantic concentration, to create this world once again is increasingly dangerous because you will end up slackening your attention... and snape your own mind inside the world of Tsukiyomi.

Oh! I also think Naruto will overcome the Tsukiyomi if it will ever be used against him. Well, it could happen, since that would be another example on how important a strong will really is.

I don't really think so, I think that the Sharingan allows its user to handle the world of Tsukiyomi, that's why Kakashi and Sasuke barely survived the attack and 'just' fall into a coma, which surprised both Kakashi and Kasume.
A normal human's mind couldn't handle this fake world.

In the other hand it's interesting to wonder how the mind of the Kyubi could interfere into this world

[Nine Devil]

In the other hand it's interesting to wonder how the mind of the Kyubi could interfere into this world

*Kyubi:What the heck where am i? Again stuck somewhere?*

*Itachi stabbing some Katana's in Kyubi's back and talking he controls everything.*

*Kyubi:Ow yeah, right there stab it more more. Hmm damn you are good in giving a massage*

*Itachi:...*

*Kyubi: I think i will stick here for couple of years!*

*Itachi:..wha?

[nh1]

Think about it, if Itachi took Kakashi during 3 days, his mind must be inside the Tsukiyomi during 3 days as well.

I have, that's why I wrote it

I don't really think so, I think that the Sharingan allows its user to handle the world of Tsukiyomi, that's why Kakashi and Sasuke barely survived the attack and 'just' fall into a coma, which surprised both Kakashi and Kasume.
A normal human's mind couldn't handle this fake world.

I think Naruto would, basically because he's the main character, and because that seems like the sort of thing Naruto could do as a character. This immense willpower, maybe after Itachi has killed Sasuke or something. I believe Naruto will become the strongest person ever, and for that, he has to be able to overcome Itachi

[Nine Devil]

Originally Posted by nh1

I think Naruto would, basically because he's the main character, and because that seems like the sort of thing Naruto could do as a character. This immense willpower, maybe after Itachi has killed Sasuke or something. I believe Naruto will become the strongest person ever, and for that, he has to be able to overcome Itachi

Euhm you are forgetting something, Sasuke is the one who will kill Itachi.