Bakemonogatari - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll

[suka-pon-tan]

Originally Posted by qwertyman

Yeah, that confused me too. I can't imagine it being because he wanted to check for the snake marks since he went for her hair first, but that was the only conclusion I could come to.

Anyone feel like throwing novel spoilers at me if they explain it there?

I guess Koyomi tested Nadeko`s self-consciousness just for his curious.
In same time, Nadeko teased and tested Koyomi`s conscience. It`s like a Cross-counter of mind game. I don`t think Nadeko is just a typical shy, innocent girl.
She started invade Koyomi`s heart slowly. That`s why some Japanese
Bakemonogatari-fan call Nadeko as "The real last boss"or "Dark/black Nadeko".

[tarajis]

Originally Posted by qwertyman

Yeah, that confused me too. I can't imagine it being because he wanted to check for the snake marks since he went for her hair first, but that was the only conclusion I could come to.

Anyone feel like throwing novel spoilers at me if they explain it there?

I also thought he was just checking for the snake marks... but if Senjouhara sees that he'll get much worse than snake bites... much much worse...

I also enjoy seeing Hanekawa blushes while she glances sideway to look at what Ararararagi (Shitsurei, kamimashita!) is holding.

There was no black or red screen this time around, right?

[sirn]

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

Exactly. It's the animated part that defines animation. Even many bad anime usually emphasize on movement, but it doesn't automatically mean it's good. This show is really weird, because it's more like reading a book or an audio-book to be more precise. Or even a graphic novel game without a button to click.

I remembered Oshii Mamoru (or is it Hosoda Mamoru?) says something like "people nowadays cares more about picture moving than overall balance in the anime."

[SuperKnuckles]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

Totally disagree with this. Because in my opinion, even if some parts of it looked like a slide show but this series still has one of the best visual in this season. The fighting scene was awesome too. It's nothing I can see in average animation anime.

I don't entirely disagree with that. Because when they DO decide to animate it, it's eyepopping and very nicely done. But they relegate most of that to the OP scenes and a very few scenes overall. Also, some of the fights and major events, looking at it pragmatically and objectively, were NOT even animated. That's a pretty hefty animation gaffe as I see it. When crucial events are not animated, that almost angered me at times. I was more confused than angry really. Exactly because when they DO animate it, they know how to make it visually appealing by animation.

Originally Posted by sirn

I remembered Oshii Mamoru (or is it Hosoda Mamoru?) says something like "people nowadays cares more about picture moving than overall balance in the anime."

Which is very sad to me that some directors actually think that. Because they are overlooking what makes animation as a medium unique and appealing. It does not surprise me since a lot of Oshii's movies has the infamous 'TALKING HEADS' type of animation. In Sky Crawlers or Ghost in the Shell movies, outside the action parts, where most of the movie lies in idling characters talking, it's usually very slight movements with ENTIRE SPEECHES filling up the timeslot. Needless to say, I'm pretty torn over Oshii's anime 'accomplishments', because he can do good work if he puts some more thought over actually animating things instead of the whole talking heads + Basset Hound Fetish.

[Clarste]

I disagree with the idea that smooth animation is what makes animation uniquely appealing. If I wanted to to get the illusion of movement by watching a sequence of still frames go by quickly, I'd watch a live action series. Those have perfect animation, if you haven't noticed.

What's uniquely appealing about the animated medium is the freedom of design. You can have impossible camera angles, costume design, settings, etc in a way that looks at least somewhat natural in that it all fits together. Put that kind of thing in live action and it stands out in contrast to the actors. In that sense, I think Bakemonogatari is beautiful, even in the obviously flawed episode 10. Things like the backgrounds in episode 3 strike me as the pinnacle of animation as a medium.

Anyway, on the subject of the well animated sections that actually exist in Bakemonogatari, they can afford to be well done precisely because they're rationed. These things don't animate themselves you know. Animation is extremely time consuming and frankly tedious work. This is a weekly show that doesn't seem to have a particularly huge budget, so we could either have horrible and pointless animation spread out evenly (which wouldn't even make sense given the content as dictated by the dialog heavy source material) or mostly talking heads with a few awesome scenes every so often.

[Voitan]

Y'know, I just noticed Oshii is the only one who's chin actually moves when he talks.

ZOMG!

[Raiga]

Just my point of view, but I'm a Shaft fan because I find the sort of stuff they do in their shows really takes advantage of the unique aspects of the animated medium. Stuff like neon-colored blood, strange but beautiful backgrounds and scenery, style-shifts, and all the other random things that get thrown in. You couldn't do any of those in a live-action context, and to me, that's part of what makes animation so appealing.

I mean, I suppose if they could put in more animation (without hurting the existing scenes of course) it'd be nice, but as others have stated they do have to make one of these every week. I dunno. Maybe it's just me. :\

[Belum_nabum]

To get the point I am 30 years old and 14 year olds naked or almost are not something I get a hard on off. This being said episode was good but I am busy so here are my thoughts in pic format:

This scene of Hanekawa and Araragi was cool and I liked as well as its signification, which varies among people.

Spoiler for a:

THEY HAD TO INCLUDE MORE FAN SERVICE OF NADEKO! BOO! BOO! I ain't a pedophile!

Spoiler for a:

Among the many funny faces of Araragi, I liked these!

Spoiler for a:

OH GREAT! More proofs of Araragi being perverted scum!

Spoiler for a:

Among the many poses of MOEFICATION of Nadeko, I liked this one a lot but it reminds of Mimi from Kodomo no Jikan's second season OP.


The little cocky Nadeko made me also shiver as I have a weak side to tease girls.


Two other poses that show THE MOEFICATION of Nadeko I liked. SOMEONE do a gif of the clap scene so I can save it on my USB.

Spoiler for a:

LOL! Very funny of of Nadeko here.

Spoiler for a:

A WTF and part of Hanekawa.

Spoiler for a:

Wow she drains people's energy to the point of making them die? WOW! Looks to me a cat-vampire more than anything! Like Shinobu except Shinobu is blood-vampire.

Spoiler for a:

WTF! WTF! Shinobu bites again! GAH! Stupid vampire crap again! QUESTION!

Spoiler for a:

Does that not make Hanekawa also a vampire? Or did all Shinobu did was to drain the energy?

Spoiler for a:

[velderia]

Maybe I just need to wait until the fansubs come out, but did Hanekawa-Nyaan drain people's lives or energy levels? I don't think they really died.

Is Hanekawa having a problem with Golden Week because her parents are split? I couldn't fully understand that part, but caught words like "okaasan", "nanimo", "otoosan ni". Is she going to visit her dad?

[Belum_nabum]

Originally Posted by velderia

Maybe I just need to wait until the fansubs come out, but did Hanekawa-Nyaan drain people's lives or energy levels? I don't think they really died.

Is Hanekawa having a problem with Golden Week because her parents are split? I couldn't fully understand that part, but caught words like "okaasan", "nanimo", "otoosan ni". Is she going to visit her dad?

Spoiler for a:

Well I think that Hanekawa might be able to drain people till they are dead.
The thing that I wonder is what have CATS to do with GOLDEN WEEK?

Some personal thing:

Spoiler for a:

Nadeko is more of a different personality than revealed. Is it implied that shy girls are more ecchi with the one they love?

Originally Posted by monir

Ask this question to the very nice Ickem or Hei, or any other novel reader who checks the Bakemonogatari Novel Discussion thread. Considering this is a pretty good tease of a mystery, other anime-only viewers might want to enjoy speculating it here. We don't want to ruin anyone's fun, now do we?.... well providing there is indeed a clear-cut answer...

BTW Monir HOW THE HELL do you take so many pics so fast.

[ickem]

Originally Posted by velderia

Maybe I just need to wait until the fansubs come out, but did Hanekawa-Nyaan drain people's lives or energy levels? I don't think they really died.

Is Hanekawa having a problem with Golden Week because her parents are split? I couldn't fully understand that part, but caught words like "okaasan", "nanimo", "otoosan ni". Is she going to visit her dad?

She's not related to either of her "parents" and they see her as a bother. They are only raising her because it would look bad to just get rid of her. That's also why she tries so hard to be the perfect. Also the gauze is covering where her "father" hit her that morning.

[velderia]

Originally Posted by ickem

She's not related to either of her "parents" and they see her as a bother. They are only raising her because it would look bad to just get rid of her. That's also why she tries so hard to be the perfect. Also the gauze is covering where her "father" hit her that morning.

Awww! Poor thing. That clarified a lot though, ty.

[guanin]

Whoah, never imagined it was DV. I only thought it was bickering parents or somethin. What a hard life Hanekawa goes through everyday... Poor girl...

Anyways, this arc involves the flashback to Golden Week with Sawari-Neko's first attack, then going back to the present time line in the anime to see the Sawari-Neko coming back, right?

[monir]

I was going to wait till the sub appears before I open my yap, but I think I'll explode if I wait any longer.

Originally Posted by guanin

Anyways, this arc involves the flashback to Golden Week with Sawari-Neko's first attack, then going back to the present time line in the anime to see the Sawari-Neko coming back, right?

The timeline was tiny bit more confusing than that... The episode started out with her injuries on the cheek. At that moment, we don't have a clue whether it is taking place in the present or in the past. After the opening theme, Hanekawa appears once again as Araragi is talking to Sengoku. She displays her symptom there. When Araragi starts to wonder if this is the same as the time during the golden week, the flashback starts. The episode ends in the present when Hanekawa points out about the question marks of a guy who is openly walking with girls' school mizugi. Other than the similar tell tale signs of her Shiroi Neko days, aka, Bad Hanekawa, aka, Black Hanekawa (all akas' are coined by Oshino himself ), she didn't revert back to anything.

There was a lot of information about what brings out the Black Hanekawa. I'll call her Shiroi Hanekawa form as Black Hanekawa because it's aptly misleading, equally amusing, and yet describes the other Hanekawa perfectly. She is a bad kitty once in that form. Oshino says that she transforms in that form as a stress relief mechanism when she is under a tremendous amount of stress. What gives her those stress? Exams? boyfriend? Family? Thinking about that first scene, her family is most certainly the source of her stress. That's also seem to be the first clue about the opening scene was taking place in the past. The 2nd clue was when she touched and picked up that dead cat for a burial. Sawari neko.

I'm speculating here of course. I'm not certain if I'm correct, but that's how I reasoned the opening scene happened in the past and what lead to her eventual transformation in the upcoming Golden Week.

The flow of interesting information about Hanekawa continues and gives more ammunition for further speculation. As shown, Hanekawa was bitten by Shinobu. Since she is high up in the food chain, being a vampire and all, she was able to energy-drain the Black Hanekawa aka Shirai Neko to the usual Hanekawa. Speculation starts here.....

Hanekawa never had a resolution to her Black Hanekawa problem. It simply means that Black Hanekawa never appeared since Shinobu's own version of energy drain on Black Hanekawa.

The question is why didn't Hanekawa transform into Black Hanekawa since then? The answer is she coped with her stress one way or the other since then instead of letting it built to a critical stage which would trigger the Black Hanekawa transformation.

So what were those steps she took to keep the stress at a tolerable level?

She stayed away from home as long as possible. She talked to Araragi and enjoyed spending time with him. A certain checks-and-balance was reached to keep the Black Hanekawa at bay. All signs of symptoms disappeared...... well, until now.

So what is triggering the familiar symptom to her transformation?

Once again, the obvious answer has to be stress. So, what is causing her stress? Her family is always a suspect. But then, a major clue to her new- found stress is thrown at us when Araragi ponders to himself if there is someone suitable for Hanekawa who is kinder than anyone else. And it seems he was going to voice that question, but then.... he stops short. Hanekawa, near the end of the episode tells Araragi that he is kind when he keeps pestering her about going to hospital and etc... Here comes further speculation:

Araragi is now officially involved with Senjougahara. As a result, the checks and balance is tipped. Araragi's very company used to help Hanekawa to cope with her stress. Now she can't be with Araragi as much out of decency and consideration for Senjougahara. And so her stress level is on the rise again.

Now the real question is why is Hanekawa stressing over the lack of Araragi's company? Why indeed? And then it hits me...... You effin' lucky bastard Araragi..................

I am so looking forward to this arc.


P.S. DV stands of Domestic Violence just in case anyone isn't familiar with the acronym.

P.P.S The two other piece of information that give further rise to speculation were: a) Shinobu bit Black Hanekawa. It's an interesting information because of what we know about Araragi's abilities. b) Sengoku observed Shinobu gave her and Kanbaru a sort of look which entirely different from when Shinobu looks at Araragi or Oshino. The following was the look Sengoku got from Shinobu:

Originally Posted by Belum_nabum

BTW Monir HOW THE HELL do you take so many pics so fast.

Dilligent usage of my index finger placed on top of the mouse by gently caressing it and pressing on it over and over and over till the job was done. Did that answer your question?

Media Player Classic also helped out a lot.

[SuperKnuckles]

Originally Posted by Clarste

I disagree with the idea that smooth animation is what makes animation uniquely appealing. If I wanted to to get the illusion of movement by watching a sequence of still frames go by quickly, I'd watch a live action series. Those have perfect animation, if you haven't noticed.

What's uniquely appealing about the animated medium is the freedom of design. You can have impossible camera angles, costume design, settings, etc in a way that looks at least somewhat natural in that it all fits together. Put that kind of thing in live action and it stands out in contrast to the actors. In that sense, I think Bakemonogatari is beautiful, even in the obviously flawed episode 10. Things like the backgrounds in episode 3 strike me as the pinnacle of animation as a medium.

Anyway, on the subject of the well animated sections that actually exist in Bakemonogatari, they can afford to be well done precisely because they're rationed. These things don't animate themselves you know. Animation is extremely time consuming and frankly tedious work. This is a weekly show that doesn't seem to have a particularly huge budget, so we could either have horrible and pointless animation spread out evenly (which wouldn't even make sense given the content as dictated by the dialog heavy source material) or mostly talking heads with a few awesome scenes every so often.

I can understand all that. But if you don't have animation, it isn't animation. It can't get any more literal than that. And I agree about live action versus animation. But really, I'm not all that into the live action stuff because the animation has that freedom of narrative and visuals, I agree. I know SHAFT is out there trying to show off how much of a budget animation studio they are, but sometimes they go a bit too far. And the amount of talking heads in Bakemonogatari is to the point of ridicule.

If we're talking about the risk of having uneven animation and all, we see that all the time with A1 and Gainax and you can see the iron balls they have for attempting it if at least to bring forth it as an animation. I do think this may be personal taste, but I'd rather see them try it bleeding from their eyes rather than use static screens and total emptiness as a segway.

That said, I actually strangely do admire Shaft for at least attempting this, even though I personally don't think it's been successful throughout.

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by Raiga

Just my point of view, but I'm a Shaft fan because I find the sort of stuff they do in their shows really takes advantage of the unique aspects of the animated medium. Stuff like neon-colored blood, strange but beautiful backgrounds and scenery, style-shifts, and all the other random things that get thrown in. You couldn't do any of those in a live-action context, and to me, that's part of what makes animation so appealing.

This pretty much sums up why i didn't want any other studio to handle the production of Bakemonogatari. I knew from past experiences that ShinboxSHAFT would able to bring this story to live unlike any other studio, and thanks to that i'm loved the experience that this show has brought forward.

Originally Posted by ickem

She's not related to either of her "parents" and they see her as a bother. They are only raising her because it would look bad to just get rid of her. That's also why she tries so hard to be the perfect. Also the gauze is covering where her "father" hit her that morning.

I guess we could have expected these turn of events, though still i'm glad it went the way i original thought it would.

[omimon]

Originally Posted by monir

I was going to wait till the sub appears before I open my yap, but I think I'll explode if I wait any longer.


The timeline was tiny bit more confusing than that... The episode started out with her injuries on the cheek. At that moment, we don't have a clue whether it is taking place in the present or in the past. After the opening theme, Hanekawa appears once again as Araragi is talking to Sengoku. She displays her symptom there. When Araragi starts to wonder if this is the same as the time during the golden week, the flashback starts. The episode ends in the present when Hanekawa points out about the question marks of a guy who is openly walking with girls' school mizugi. Other than the similar tell tale signs of her Shiroi Neko days, aka, Bad Hanekawa, aka, Black Hanekawa (all akas' are coined by Oshino himself ), she didn't revert back to anything.

There was a lot of information about what brings out the Black Hanekawa. I'll call her Shiroi Hanekawa form as Black Hanekawa because it's aptly misleading, equally amusing, and yet describes the other Hanekawa perfectly. She is a bad kitty once in that form. Oshino says that she transforms in that form as a stress relief mechanism when she is under a tremendous amount of stress. What gives her those stress? Exams? boyfriend? Family? Thinking about that first scene, her family is most certainly the source of her stress. That's also seem to be the first clue about the opening scene was taking place in the past. The 2nd clue was when she touched and picked up that dead cat for a burial. Sawari neko.

I'm speculating here of course. I'm not certain if I'm correct, but that's how I reasoned the opening scene happened in the past and what lead to her eventual transformation in the upcoming Golden Week.

The flow of interesting information about Hanekawa continues and gives more ammunition for further speculation. As shown, Hanekawa was bitten by Shinobu. Since she is high up in the food chain, being a vampire and all, she was able to energy-drain the Black Hanekawa aka Shirai Neko to the usual Hanekawa. Speculation starts here.....

Hanekawa never had a resolution to her Black Hanekawa problem. It simply means that Black Hanekawa never appeared since Shinobu's own version of energy drain on Black Hanekawa.

The question is why didn't Hanekawa transform into Black Hanekawa since then? The answer is she coped with her stress one way or the other since then instead of letting it built to a critical stage which would trigger the Black Hanekawa transformation.

So what were those steps she took to keep the stress at a tolerable level?

She stayed away from home as long as possible. She talked to Araragi and enjoyed spending time with him. A certain checks-and-balance was reached to keep the Black Hanekawa at bay. All signs of symptoms disappeared...... well, until now.

So what is triggering the familiar symptom to her transformation?

Once again, the obvious answer has to be stress. So, what is causing her stress? Her family is always a suspect. But then, a major clue to her new- found stress is thrown at us when Araragi ponders to himself if there is someone suitable for Hanekawa who is kinder than anyone else. And it seems he was going to voice that question, but then.... he stops short. Hanekawa, near the end of the episode tells Araragi that he is kind when he keeps pestering her about going to hospital and etc... Here comes further speculation:

Araragi is now officially involved with Senjougahara. As a result, the checks and balance is tipped. Araragi's very company used to help Hanekawa to cope with her stress. Now she can't be with Araragi as much out of decency and consideration for Senjougahara. And so her stress level is on the rise again.

Now the real question is why is Hanekawa stressing over the lack of Araragi's company? Why indeed? And then it hits me...... You effin' lucky bastard Araragi..................

I am so looking forward to this arc.


P.S. DV stands of Domestic Violence just in case anyone isn't familiar with the acronym.

P.P.S The two other piece of information that give further rise to speculation were: a) Shinobu bit Black Hanekawa. It's an interesting information because of what we know about Araragi's abilities. b) Sengoku observed Shinobu gave her and Kanbaru a sort of look which entirely different from when Shinobu looks at Araragi or Oshino. The following was the look Sengoku got from Shinobu:







Dilligent usage of my index finger placed on top of the mouse by gently caressing it and pressing on it over and over and over till the job was done. Did that answer your question?

Media Player Classic also helped out a lot.

I didn't want to say anything on this thread since I thought that I might spoil it for the anime viewers but since you pretty much got everything to the dot I thought that I might as well clear things up. It is indeed true that Hanekawa turns into Black Hanakawa later on because of Araragi not being with her anymore. The reason why she didn't transform during these two times is because there wasn't enough stress for her to transform. (When she was in cat-form she released a majority of the stress that she was building up and that is why when she turned back she didn't have enough to transform.) We need to remember that the stress she has been building up started since god knows when and from that we can determine that the amount of family stress needed for her to transform is probably a decades worth. However, the time between Golden Week and the present is only a bit over a month so from this we can see that a month worth of stress of not being with Araragi is equal to a decades worth of family stress.

[Belum_nabum]

MONIR AND OMIMON.....YOU ARE THE BEST! Thanks a lot for explanations! CLEARED UP A LOT!

I wonder if Japan is pointing out in this anime, with this arc that people are not themselves when stressed too much and if they commit crimes because of stress? INTERESTING POINT, would you not agree?

You guys get reps from me!

[sirn]

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

I know SHAFT is out there trying to show off how much of a budget animation studio they are, but sometimes they go a bit too far. And the amount of talking heads in Bakemonogatari is to the point of ridicule.

How is that even a studio's fault at all, for picking up a conversation-centric series that is nothing but talk? Even the king of overanimating—KyoAni at their height of Haruhi days—still can't find much to animate in Nagato's explanation scene in Melancholy III and have to resort to using the same old tricks: camera angels, text insertions and still shots.

In this episode, for example, Shaft have to reorganize the story to the point it makes at least three novel readers in this thread feel disappointed in order to actually animate something and make it interesting, otherwise this episode would be nothing but standing in front of the school gate and talk.

Camera panning often used in this series is also a lot of work animation-wise, but not a lot people will actually impressed by it. Though Shaft may lack of resources, they're already trying with the series.

[Kaguya]

Originally Posted by Belum_nabum

I wonder if Japan is pointing out in this anime, with this arc that people are not themselves when stressed too much and if they commit crimes because of stress? INTERESTING POINT, would you not agree?

It is a true crime to commit a crime only for stress alleviation.
Probably, it will be insufficient as a reason.
It will not be guilty if her mental disorder of a multiple personality disorder is proved.
In this case, it will not be guilty that she injured her parents, because Araragi can prove DV.