[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Ryuudou]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

I think it is because Lambda ALLOWED them to. At the same time she could negate these red truths if she wanted to, as she did with the "from the moment the rain started, the window was not opened even once".

Allowed them to what? Lamba doesn't control Berns pieces to my understanding. And that red truth doesn't "negate" any other red truth.

So I'm not sure I understand your points.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Ryuudou

Allowed them to what? Lamba doesn't control Berns pieces to my understanding. And that red truth doesn't "negate" any other red truth.

So I'm not sure I understand your points.

Lambda, as the game master, has control over the red truth with everything that falls outside of the detective's authority, so everything beside what Erika actually could see with her own eyes and things that by using logic were 100% undeniable were in complete control of Lambda. Also that the human side cannot use red truth, is established from EP2 on. BUT as we saw in EP4, the game master may give the human side temporal permission to use the red truth. So the scene in Kinzo's room was such a case, where Lambda granted Dlanor and her assistants the right to use the red truth for things like the door and the window. They could "seal" the door, although not having CLEAR evidence that the door really was closed (e.g. Natsuhi accidently forgetting to close the door was never denied). But when it came to the window, Lambda intentionally "blocked" the red truth for the human side, making Battler's solution possible and crushing the closed room. But since at that point it is was just Lambda vs Bern, it was essentially a big troll from Lambda against Erika (and Bern). With her power over the red truth, she could have stopped Erika from the beginning, but she wanted to make it look more "dramatic" (and giving Piece-Battler a moment to shine finally) and troll Erika a bit.

[AuraTwilight]

Lambdadelta and Bernkastel are on the same side and are just fucking around, so it's entirely a mute issue.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Lambdadelta and Bernkastel are on the same side and are just fucking around, so it's entirely a mute issue.

I think at first they were really fighting though. Lambda wanted to troll Bern & Erika first and later on she plotted with Bern though (ALL of this happens before Battler even joined the game). I am actually quite confident, that they AT LEAST were fighting until Bern gave her blue truths regarding the first twilight. But I am not able to pinpoint the exact moment where they decided to start an alliance and humilate Piece-Beato.

And I personally think that the Kinzo's-study-incident was still in "wartime".

[magnum12]

You could also explain much of Lambadelta's actions as being a capricious amoral (as opposed to immoral) troll. However, I suspect things are a bit more complicated.

Lambdadelta is secretly on Battler's side helping him find the truth, albeit in her own twisted, capricious, trollish, morally ambiguous way. Lambdadelta knows the truth because she found out from Beato. This does NOT conflict with her relationship with Bernkastel as her objective is more about keeping Bernksatel "glued to the tube" than outright opposing her.

[Ryuudou]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Lambdadelta and Bernkastel are on the same side and are just fucking around, so it's entirely a mute issue.

It wasn't a mute issue; even being aware that they're trolling understanding semantics is still important.

[Renall]

Things we know about Lambda's objective in Game Mastering ep5:

• ...

Things we know about Cornelia and Gertrude and what they do:

• Uhhhh, Cornelia had that one TIP, I guess...

They have somewhere on the order of a dozen or so lines in the entire series between the two of them. Narrow it down to things that say anything about their character or abilities and you might get enough to count on one hand. They work for Dlanor, and Dlanor is like a personification of rules, so they're... helping the rules? I don't know man, they might as well not even be there.

[Ryuudou]

That's true. Starting a bit of (large) tangent here now: it's just confusing because it seems like Episode 5 in particular has a meta-world on a level that is below the meta-world that we're used to (where real life survivor Battler is "represented" I think) while still being above the meta-level of that particular game-board (Rokkenjima with the family and Erika). If Dlanor was arguing with piece-Battler in Kinzo's study (because Battler hadn't joined the game at that point) then it wasn't the usual level of meta-world we observe because our familiar meta-Battler was observing this from an even higher point of view (but not participating) when Episode 5 was re-winded back for him, however it still wasn't the game-board because it was a red/blue battle which obviously doesn't take place in the forgery-level narrative that our meta characters normally observe and debate over.

So in the scene about Kinzo's study Bern summons Dlanor to help assist Erika, who is Bern's double, argue with a piece-Battler that Bern herself also controls in a world that is below Bern's level and above Rokenjima's level while using red truth that Bern nor Dlanor nor Gertrude nor Corenila could have objectively known because Lamba "gave" it to them?

How does that even play out? Dlanor is on the same level Bern and co. are, so she is aware of them because she is aware of doll-Beatrice. Did she just suddenly become "aware" that she "knew something she didn't know a moment ago" and attribute to it Lamba? Is Dlanor controlling a piece-Dlanor of herself? In that case wouldn't it violate Knox's 2nd if she (Dlanor in Kinzo's study) was using red (red outside of the knox rules) that she could only have known through her higher-level self on the off-chance that Lamba told her? Also how can Dlanor have a game-board piece that doesn't exist on Rokkenjima but interacts with piece-Battler on some level (because our meta-Battler had no part in that particular debate) in Kinzo's study? Continuing on: Gertrude and Cornelia (to my knowledge) don't even exist at the same level Bern and Lamba do, but still conceptually exist above gameboard-level Rokkenjima; so what about them? Did they just suddenly become aware of new truths without knowing why? How can either of them use red that isn't common canon (like knox rules) without violating Knox's 2nd?

I understand at that point during Episode 5's gameboard progression it was basically just Bern and Lamba masturbating together, but it still needs to be somewhat coherent as it's still Beato's gameboard and futhermore even Bern and Lamba can't violate the rules (like who can use red) of the meta-level they themselves exist in.

[battle22]

I understand at that point during Episode 5's gameboard progression it was basically just Bern and Lamba masturbating together

I laughed too much.

[Kealym]

I think you are seeing EP 5 in an overly complex way.

To start with, it's very strongly suggested that as the Game Master, all red statements regarding the EP5 gameboard are by Lambda's authority. I've always imagined, given their introduction and roles, that Cornelia and Gertrude are the fantasy (kinda) counterparts of the seals used by Erika. You can see them, then, as the natural extension of Dlanor being allowed to participate in the first place, and what you get when you're allowed to apply Decalogue knowledge.

They also heighten the tension by giving Bern's side a higher headcount, and let Ryukishi design yet another squadron of girls in skimpy regalia, so there's that.

As far as I can tell, the Meta space, with red/blue battles, is the same space, on the same level as all the Meta we'd seen prior to that point, with the only difference being that BATTLER had opted out of participating at that point. It is more or less confirmed in the following scene that Battler's piece was being controlled by Lambda during the battle in the study.

Bern controls Erika. They want to destroy the illusion of the Witch, and use reds based on Erika's own investigations and Dlanor's 10 wedges, all of which Lambda allows.

Lambda controls the piece-Beato, and wants to not let either side take the advantage, and be entertained. She accomplishes this by using piece-Battler to propose a ridiculous, but possible, escape plan for Kinzo. It's said that piece-Battler could be variously controlled by Bern or Lambda, but let's not forget that in EP5 Battler is an accomplice almost for certain, Bern considers the fight in the study as a loss, and I don't think we see any moment where Bern directly compels his piece to do anything that's not more or less pushing things along using Erika.

In summary, I'd argue that that there's no real fantasy narrative happening at all in that scene. Hell, Lambda barely tells a fantasy narrative at all, in EP5, opting for something much more like Legend. What I mean by this, for instance, is that she had a mysterious letter appear outside the family conference int he middle of the night, for instance, but did NOT tell an elaborate scene where Beato appears from butterflies, poofs the letter into existence, knocks, cackles maniacally, and poofs away. She just has the letter be there, and is all "ooooh look at that, how'd that get there?! How mysterious!" about it.

[Ryuudou]

The wiki implies that Bern is controlling Battler. Maybe I interpreted it wrong, but thank you that all makes a lot of sense.

The thing is though if Gertrude and Cornelia are personifications of Erika's seals (which really does make sense) why can they use red like "Of those who remain, only Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji were in the second floor corridor, while all others were in the dining hall" which they can't possibly know even with "authority" over seals on the game-board?

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Ryuudou

The wiki implies that Bern is controlling Battler. Maybe I interpreted it wrong, but thank you that all makes a lot of sense.

The thing is though if Gertrude and Cornelia are personifications of Erika's seals (which really does make sense) why can they use red like "Of those who remain, only Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji were in the second floor corridor, while all others were in the dining hall" which they can't possibly know even with "authority" over seals on the game-board?

As I understood it, Bern was in control of Piece-Battler ONLY for the duration of the "Epitaph solving". Aside from that, Piece-Battler was controlled by Lambda, until Battler took over (Battler was in control only for the "No good. no good at all" at the very end of the Episode before the first TP. maybe there was more but it would have been offscreen).

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by Ryuudou

The wiki implies that Bern is controlling Battler. Maybe I interpreted it wrong, but thank you that all makes a lot of sense.

The thing is though if Gertrude and Cornelia are personifications of Erika's seals (which really does make sense) why can they use red like "Of those who remain, only Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji were in the second floor corridor, while all others were in the dining hall" which they can't possibly know even with "authority" over seals on the game-board?

I like the wiki, but it has occasionally presented uncertain elements as though they were facts. I believe there was a time when Kyrie's page said she was eventually shown to be the culprit of the murders in prime / antagonist of the series.

This is still just my own opinion, and how things make sense to me, but if I had to explain what you're asking about, I'd say that Eiserne Jungfrau are furniture, and Lambda probably allowed them to clarify certain facts about the scene in question to help temper Erika / Bern's reasoning. They obviously can't know everything there is to tell, or they could just provide Erika the answer (because they are HER furniture, after all), but they must be getting their reds from somewhere (remember that even Bern is apparently only able to use Blue at that point), and again, I'd attribute it to Lambda. Cornelia and Gertrude may represent the seals used on the gameboard, but similar to the Siesta's being fantasy counterparts of firearms, their role in the overall, Umineko narrative need not be strictly limited to such.

I'm not sure if it was the best way to write it, but Lambda did provide MOST of the red during that particular argument, and it still serves Ryukishi's narrative wiles to not have the piece-Beato using any red.

[Dormin]

Originally Posted by Kealym

I like the wiki, but it has occasionally presented uncertain elements as though they were facts.

Heh, you are right. As umineko is very much of a personal interpretation, having a wiki might be bit hard.

As for Lambda and Bern, I had difficult time thinking about their matters as I generally like the theory that meta is completely metaphorical and no magic exists in any form, so it becomes very fast a question of what factors Lambda and Bern symbolize.

How canon is the theory that they were playing the game just to have a giggle? I personally like to think this way.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Dormin

How canon is the theory that they were playing the game just to have a giggle? I personally like to think this way.

It's possible to do things for two different reasons, so one can probably assume "because it's entertaining" is one of their motives for everything they do, though not necessarily the only one.

[Kiltias]

So what are the thoughts on Rudolf mentioning and following the 36 Stratagems in EP3?
He's already the least trustworthy person on Rokkenjima and quoting as well as following that certainly doesn't help him either.

What I mean is just look at them:
"A plain lie. Make somebody believe there was something when there is in fact nothing. One method of using this strategy is to create an illusion of something's existence, while it does not exist."

" Revive something from the past by giving it a new purpose or bring to life old ideas, customs, or traditions and reinterpret them to fit your purposes. "

"Bait someone by making him believe he gains something"

" Through the use of artifice and disguise, make something of no value appear valuable; of no threat appear dangerous; of no use appear useful."

"You can mask your real goals, by using the ruse of a fake goal that everyone takes for granted, until the real goal is achieved. Tactically, this is known as an 'open feint'; in front of everyone, you point west, when your goal is actually in the east. By the time everyone realized it, you have already achieved your goal."

"Hide behind the mask of a fool, a drunk, or a madman to create confusion about your intentions and motivations. Lure your opponent into underestimating your ability until, overconfident, he drops his guard. Then you may attack. "

"When the enemy is too strong to be attacked directly, then attack something he holds dear.
The idea here is to avoid a head on battle with a strong enemy, and instead strike at his weakness elsewhere."

"Attack using the strength of another"

"There are circumstances in which you must sacrifice short-term objectives in order to gain the long-term goal. This is the scapegoat strategy whereby someone else suffers the consequences."

"Never directly attack an opponent whose advantage is derived from its position. Instead lure him away from his position thus separating him from his source of strength. "

"Undermine your enemy's ability to fight by secretly causing discord between him and his friends, allies, advisors, family, commanders, soldiers, and population."

"Inflict injury upon yourself to win enemy trust."

Rudolf for example was shown to use the 36th and even quoted it.
"If all else fails retreat"
Yet, that stratagem isn't about saving your life it's about saving ones chance to win/succeed.

They're all about using trickery and ruses to succeed, after reading this I just can't shake the feeling he and Kyrie may play far more important roles as some kind of "Puppeteers", having somehow manipulated certain events.

Hell Eva stated Rudolf is violent by nature and Rosa even feared that one brother is gonna make things really dirty followed by Rudolf all alone being the one finding Rosa and Maria dead in EP 3.
Heck there is no way I'll regard it as coincidence that Rudolf's name refers to a goddamn Wolf while we have the entire thing about Wolves and Sheep showing 2 Wolves,Beatrice fearing Wolves or how Wolf is a term used in EP 2 for the Culprits.
He's even a Bishop in EP 3 who stand for Manipulation but also Snakes.

I'm not saying he and Kyrie and THE Culprits but that they may have some major influence on alot of events.

1. I think, Yasu is always the culprit of the gameboard.

Unarguably.

There are not a single culprit in Prime. Everybody is guilty. Everybody kills someone, and there’s no mastermind behind it.

Nah, Prime Culprit is Rosa or Kyrie and Rudolf.
Ever heard of an Allegory?

Definition:

The rhetorical strategy of extending a metaphor through an entire narrative so that objects, persons, and actions in the text are equated with meanings that lie outside the text.

One of the most basic concepts of story writing.

You just gotta see how it all fits together.

1967 Rosa believes in Magic and Witches and wanted to be one herself- 1967 Kuwadorian Beatrice won't leave her "cage" due to Wolves - Name Rudolf refers to Wolf - Eva stated Rudolf had always been violent - Rosa feared Rudolfs action in EP 3 should Eva remain quite about the Gold - Rudolf is constantly portrayed as the downright biggest scum on Rokkenjima.

Beatrice died by falling down a cliff, an event from which Rosa still suffer - Yasu fell down a cliff and sustained a major injury.

Rosa wants to be a butterfly yet she trapped butterflies in spider webs - spider webs work against Beatrice - Rosa shown caught in a Spider Web as a Butterfly - again, Rosa wants to be a Butterfly - Maria is the one who said Beatrice turns into Butterflies - Beatrices magic returned due to the Alliance with Maria - Rosa once had dreams of being a Witch - Maria is has a near obsession with "Fixing the single sick Rose in the garden" - Rosa can even mean Rose - The Golden Land does not exist without Maria.

Kinzo and Kuwadorian Beatrice have a child - Kinzo named Rosas child - Kinzo gives HIS children weird names - Rosa had the name changed to Maria - Despite Kinzo not giving 2 fucks about Maria, Rosa doing so made him very furious - Beatrice said what Kinzo wants most lodges within Maria - Rosa mentioned the Family tree reminds her of a River and that the Epitaph is about Maria - Occult believe mentions about 1 Source and 4 rivers, one leading to Gold another to a dark abyss, about a path to resurrect someone dead by a rebirth to which the womb must belong to 1 of 4 women - 4 women, Rosa,Kyrie,Eva,Natsuhi - Kinzo is into the Occult to resurrect Beatrice.

4 Rivers - Rudolf, Eva, Rosa, Krauss - One Leads to Gold another to a Dark Abyss - Within Maria lodges what Kinzo wants most - Kyrie and Rudolfs actions in 3,7 and 8.

It's all in the clues, those who say otherwise probably don't know that even the "Nipah" in Higurashi was a clue.
I mean fuck Rosa was trapped in a Spider Web as a butterfly:
"A Spider sitting in its web watching till its prey is entangled represents being caught in the illusion of the physical world."

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by Kiltias

Nah, Prime Culprit is Rosa or Kyrie and Rudolf.
Ever heard of an Allegory?

Not entirely sure how to interpret your post, so correct me if I'm wrong. Your argument is that there are various metaphors (involving roses, butterflies, etcetera) which suggest Rosa is...Beatrice and/or Yasu? And presumably that Beatrice must be the culprit, and therefore Rosa is the culprit. I can't see your reasoning for Kyrie and Rudolf culprits there.

I don't think that argument hangs together coherently, based on the way it's presented there. There are metaphors to make, as there are metaphors which can be made about many of the Umineko characters, but I fail to see how the ones in question would equate to Rosa or Kyrie and Rudolf being the Prime culprits. For example, Maria's attachment to the sick rose could certainly be taken as a symbol of her devotion to her abusive named-after-a-rose mother, but there's no reason to suppose that that means Rosa is the Prime culprit.

What would their motives be for murdering everybody on the island?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Kiltias

Rudolf is constantly portrayed as the downright biggest scum on Rokkenjima.

Whoa whoa whoa hold on a second. Where? When? He is implied to be involved in shady things, but he's almost never portrayed as needlessly aggressive or actively malicious. Even in the "let's shoot everybody" portrayals, he seems to mostly be going along with Kyrie on it, and he's afraid of her reaction to what he wants to tell her ("I'll probably be killed").

Rosa and Natsuhi are much more consistently portrayed as prone to outbursts and Rosa is the one most predisposed to violence. We are never shown any violence being perpetrated against Rosa by anyone other than Maria, except if you want to try to consider the Eva-Beatrice scene as some kind of metaphor for abuse but in that case it's coming from Eva, not Rudolf. Offhand statements about a person's nature years in the past are insufficient proof of culprit motive and disposition, unless you can quote the part where Rudolf kicks Rosa's ass and threatens her (you can't, because it isn't there, because Rudolf is pretty much always dead early in ep1-4).

All that other stuff is just the usual KNM party line and none of it makes thematic sense of actual events or grossly misinterprets a handful of lines in ignorance of a thematic whole (such as somehow getting the idea that Rudolf is violent out of a few lines when the actual text mostly portrays him as incompetent without Kyrie's help). Once this theory starts trying to run up against the Battler/Beatrice dynamic it hits a brick wall and stops being particularly coherent. It also interprets things in a manner which is needlessly exclusionary; for example, why can I just suggest that Yasu got the ideas for her symbolism as Beatrice from Maria, who in turn got some of them from her mother? We know Yasu was cribbing from Maria's occult trivia, something that would be quite strange for Rosa to do since IIRC KNM's theory posits that Rosa taught Maria that stuff, rather than being taught by Maria as ep7 states. This would provide thematic continuity of the succession of Beatrice's powers from Beatrice to Rosa (the last person to see her alive) to Maria (her daughter) to Yasu (Maria's friend).

There's other ways I could tear this apart but I've got stuff to do, but to help me out, cite your sources for "occult belief." Where did you hear about this symbolism?

---

Also that stuff's not an allegory. Allegory is when parts of a story symbolize larger concepts or attempt to explain the broader functioning of the world on the whole. Umineko doesn't attempt to do this at the highest level, but it does do it in places. For example, an allegory would be the thematic progression of the Ange side of Alliance, where Rosa and Maria's relationship is a symbolic representation of the cycle of resentment and violence that turn innocent children into bitter and broken adults, with the Black Witch serving as the allegorical representation of that cycle. Ange "defeats" the Black Witch (breaks the cycle) by forgiving Eva (her representation of the Black Witch and the literal adult who mistreated her). Had that particular narrative not existed, the "Black Witch" would still exist in Maria's mentionings of it, but it wouldn't be an allegory for anything, it'd just be a metaphor for Rosa when she's angry.

A story can have themes and not necessarily be allegorical, and themes can be misinterpreted to read into a story an allegory that doesn't exist, such as The Wonderful Wizard of Oz being a political screed about the Gold Standard or The Lord of the Rings being about WW2 (both were denied by their authors, but you can find "proof" if you dig hard enough).

Also, I think you know and have studied far more about chess symbolism than Ryukishi ever did, which makes me immediately suspicious of your "conclusions."

[fg204]

Here's an interesting tidbit from the trial in EP5:

Spoiler:

I never noticed until I reread this episode with the recently released tweak patch a few weeks ago that this was the first time that Beato herself openly refers to the "promise" Battler made (presumably 6 years ago) that he forgot. In EP4, she referred to it as a "sin" that Battler committed 6 years ago that he was unable to remember as well, which then seemed to crush her spirits at least as much as this moment. It's also interesting how Beatrice's response at this particular moment seems to imply that she was the direct recipient of Battler's promise, whereas in EP4 she goes out of her way to deny it. It's just so sad that by the time Battler finally remembers everything (in the EP5 tea parties) meta-Beatrice had completely given up and ceased to exist.


Also, here's another moment in the EP5 trial that I was wondering what other people's interpretations might have been.

Spoiler:

Gaap:

I was wondering who Beatrice might have been referring to as the "man who believed even though everyone said he was wrong" and "was forced to abandon that belief". In retrospect, my initial thought was that she was referring to "herself" in the past, except as a "man" (having obvious gender identity issues), having her heart broken when Battler forgot his "promise", but now I'm wondering if she might have been referring to someone else like the Battler of Rokkenjima prime, especially if we consider this episode as having been written by Hachijo. Either way, it's definitely an intriguing moment in this episode that lends itself to a variety of interpretations, although it would just be absolutely HILARIOUS if she was actually referring to the bumbling Krauss and his numerous poor investment decisions.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by fg204

I was wondering who Beatrice might have been referring to as the "man who believed even though everyone said he was wrong" and "was forced to abandon that belief". In retrospect, my initial thought was that she was referring to "herself" in the past, except as a "man" (having obvious gender identity issues), having her heart broken when Battler forgot his "promise", but now I'm wondering if she might have been referring to someone else like the Battler of Rokkenjima prime, especially if we consider this episode as having been written by Hachijo. Either way, it's definitely an intriguing moment in this episode that lends itself to a variety of interpretations, although it would just be absolutely HILARIOUS if she was actually referring to the bumbling Krauss and his numerous poor investment decisions.

Or maybe it was Kinzo?