Kanon 2006 (Generic Discussion)

[Rengemaru]

Originally Posted by i0td

I'll probably ask later after the series starts whether or not I should go back and watch the original version as well.

I think it should be a good choice to do to even impress you more of how divine the kyoAni version will be (or so I hope).

And thx for the movie Zalas, it really helped ease our thirst ^.^

And about the girl's chances, I'd say:

Spoiler:

1)Nayuki: 1st cousin marriges are forbidden in christianaty, I don't know much about what Japanese people think about this but I know that Japan is kinda influenced with some christian concepts. So she should be out.
2)Makoto: She's a fox spirit and dies in the end. So she's out.
3)Mai: ......umm....She's yuri.....
4)Ayu: Yuuichi's first love, choosing her would be saving her from her coma.
5)Shiori: Yuuichi did help her recover from her illness (whatever it was) but he can't take this path.....unless he wants to be called a pedophille :P

Or that's what I think about this mess.

[DragoonKain3]

@Rengemaru
Japan... influenced by christian concepts? Wherever did you get that? They are far more influenced by Shinto and Buddhist concepts, if the countless anime of Shinto priestesses (Kanaduki no Miko for example) and Buddhist monks (Amaenaideyo for example) are of any indication.

As for the first cousin thing, I don't think that kind of relationship is taboo in Japan, nor are they prohibited by law either. Well, at least it is not as taboo as it is in the west, so one can't discount Nayuki just because of that.

Spoiler:

NOW if one made a case that Nayuki doesn't stand a chance because there's like a billion other clues that hint towards Ayu's ending, that's a different story. Because well, judging by character popularity and the prelude/promo stuff, if there's going to be a girl who'd 'win', it would be Ayu.

[Cyz]

i guess if love steps in, such boundaries are meaningless. or so that's i'd like to say.

[Skane]

Originally Posted by martino

Don't forget the Mai fans as well!!!

Aye, although I predict we'll be terribly overwhelmed by the Ayu/Nayuki fans in the eventual Image-Thread.

"You mean there were more than two?"

[Rengemaru]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

@Rengemaru
Japan... influenced by christian concepts? Wherever did you get that? They are far more influenced by Shinto and Buddhist concepts, if the countless anime of Shinto priestesses (Kanaduki no Miko for example) and Buddhist monks (Amaenaideyo for example) are of any indication.

I'm aware of the fact that Japanese people don't have a certain religion, as most of them would say "none" if they were asked what was their religion. Also you can't neglect the fact that many Japanese people are wearing crosses and celebrating Xmas (which is a Christian Holiday). So from these 2 points one can assume that Japanese people would use some behaviors/laws from Christianity.

Also about the girl's chances thing, it's meant to be a half-serious, half-joke thing

Originally Posted by Cyz

i guess if love steps in, such boundaries are meaningless. or so that's i'd like to say.

Love is strong, very strong. But religion/law/order comes first, or so what I think.

[npal]

Originally Posted by Rengemaru

I'm aware of the fact that Japanese people don't have a certain religion, as most of them would say "none" if they were asked what was their religion. Also you can't neglect the fact that many Japanese people are wearing crosses and celebrating Xmas (which is a Christian Holiday). So from these 2 points one can assume that Japanese people would use some behaviors/laws from Christianity.

Also about the girl's chances thing, it's meant to be a half-serious, half-joke thing

Love is strong, very strong. But religion/law/order comes first, or so what I think.

Japanese people are celebrating Christmas the way you and I celebrate The Annual Town Festival You can't expect that to have major impact in the way they behave and think, save for the more broad "love each other", etc etc.

Plus, it actually depends. Other people will sacrifice their religion/law/order/whatever for love, others won't and others may be willing to sacrifice some for love but not others.

[Rengemaru]

Originally Posted by npal

Japanese people are celebrating Christmas the way you and I celebrate The Annual Town Festival You can't expect that to have major impact in the way they behave and think

It would make an imapct, Japan didn't have a solid religion to relay on and opening up to the western countries would cause the Japanese culture to be slightly affected by the other cultures. So I was guessing that it would cause 1st cousin marriges would be forbidden in Japan, that's all.

[Vexx]

First cousin marriages aren't even outlawed in many states in the US... plus there is no real genetically scientific reason for doing so outside of a case by case test basis. (not that I'm even fond of any of my first cousins)

Problem is (especially in small towns and villages) ... you are likely to be related fairly "closely" to most potential candidates, so about all you can eliminate is immediate family.

I find it interesting that people are able to marry anyone they grew up with whether related or not.... people *tend* to develop an aversion for doing so and many scientists think that is an evolutionary mechanism to improve genetic diversity. YMMV...

Shinto and Buddhism are so interwoven into Japanese culture that even if they put "none" in the form... they probably evolve most of their social values from the two systems. Christianity has a miniscule footprint in Japan and in most cases, its either a fad or they're just fascinated with the symbology. Christmas and Red/White Day (Valentines) are basically huge marketing bonanzas coupled with the japanese fascinations for "things American" in Japan. Besides the Yuletide "gift-giving holiday" has been around long before Christianity anyway. But only in Japan can one find "santa on a crucifix" ornaments ... purely an innocent mixing of icons.

[Skane]

Originally Posted by Vexx

~
I find it interesting that people are able to marry anyone they grew up with whether related or not.... people *tend* to develop an aversion for doing so and many scientists think that is an evolutionary mechanism to improve genetic diversity. ymmv.

That would be the Westermarck Effect.

[rooboy]

Originally Posted by Rengemaru

I'm aware of the fact that Japanese people don't have a certain religion, as most of them would say "none" if they were asked what was their religion. Also you can't neglect the fact that many Japanese people are wearing crosses and celebrating Xmas (which is a Christian Holiday). So from these 2 points one can assume that Japanese people would use some behaviors/laws from Christianity.

Technically Japanese people do have a certain religion - Buddhism/Shintoism; however, they are, in reality, almost completely not-practicing. They don't celebrate Christmas as Christmas - they only celebrate it as a retail opportunity. While this is also largely true in the west, it is almost exclusively true in Japan. Christmas in Japan is more a holiday for couples than for families, whereas it is is intended to be the opposite.

Originally Posted by Rengemaru

It would make an imapct, Japan didn't have a solid religion to relay on and opening up to the western countries would cause the Japanese culture to be slightly affected by the other cultures. So I was guessing that it would cause 1st cousin marriges would be forbidden in Japan, that's all.

I'm sorry, but npal's right - the Japanese are simply less religious as a group than whatever nation you're familiar with. Japan is used as the outlier in a study on the correlation between belief in evolution and belief in one, true god for this reason (link). Approximately 1% of Japanese people identify themselves as Christian. It's true that most Japanese don't have "a solid religion to rely on"; however, Japan has been about as opened up to Western countries as is humanly possible since the end of World War II - this isn't China we're talking about. The fact of the matter is that most Japanese people are simply not religious.

Even if they were, I don't understand how this is relevant - 26 states in the US allow marriage between first cousins. Most European countries allow marriage between first cousins. If there is a religious taboo, it's an incredibly weak one and only, apparently, exists in the US. More interesting facts about cousin marriages (I thought we beat this horse to death in the Canvas 2 thread)

EDIT: DRAT! Vexx beat me to it.

Originally Posted by Vexx

First cousin marriages aren't even outlawed in many states in the US... plus there is no real genetically scientific reason for doing so outside of a case by case test basis. (not that I'm even fond of any of my first cousins)

Well, that's close but not quite exactly true - they do have a slight increase in the chance of birth defects; however, the increase is slight (at best) and could not affect you at all (depending on if you're both carrying the same genes). Some US states require genetic counseling for cousins to marry for this reason.

EDIT 2: Now that I've gone back and read the first post I find this even less relevant. We've had couple marriages as recently in anime history as Canvas2 (well, they may not have married, but they were nekkid under a blanket together - the indication I got was it was headed that way) so I can't imagine that's any real reason to discount Nayuki, though I, personally, am still pulling for Ayu. Uguu~

[Rengemaru]

Ah I wasn't aware of the fact that half of the US states are allowing cousin marriges along with some Europeon countries.

[Cyz]

Originally Posted by Rengemaru

Love is strong, very strong. But religion/law/order comes first, or so what I think.

Which kinda sucks no? But I guess it prevents an future unethical stuffs

[Rengemaru]

Originally Posted by Cyz

Which kinda sucks no? But I guess it prevents an future unethical stuffs

Yeah most of these laws/rules are there to prevent social disorder and stuff.

[rooboy]

Originally Posted by Rengemaru

Ah I wasn't aware of the fact that half of the US states are allowing cousin marriges along with some Europeon countries.

Actually I think it's "all" European countries - but I didn't want to bother to look up each one.

[Maids! Maids! Maids!]

[Cyz]

Originally Posted by Maids! Maids! Maids!

Oh? We have pictures now courtesy of Maids! Maids! Maids! Now, were getting close to getting this thread to have a section on it's own.

[-Nyu-]

I'll do something more for it
Here is the review of the Kanon Prelude DVD, enjoy:
http://www.visual-novels.net/cms/review.php?id=2

[martino]

As far as I know all European countries allow cousin marriages and the christian religion doesn't seem to have anything against it either(after all Jesus's parents supposedly were 2nd cousins, and Abraham told his sons to marry their cousins IIRC therefore they can't really go against the Bible even if they wanted)...

Anyway I noticed this recently, but this "cousin relationship" thing seems to be quite common in animes, eg Kanon, Elfen Lied, Da Capo, Kono Minikuku mo Utsukushii Sekai and some other ones as well...and I was wondering whether cousin relationships are common in Japan or something else...

[DanielSong39]

There is absolutely no prohibition against cousin marriages in the Bible. In fact, there were several cases where cousin marriages were encouraged.

Nevertheless I wouldn't bet on a Nayuki ending, even though she was a prominent figure in the last preview.

Let's see how KyoAni handles Ayu; I'm open to becoming an Ayu supporter as long as they make her less annoying.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by martino

Anyway I noticed this recently, but this "cousin relationship" thing seems to be quite common in animes, eg Kanon, Elfen Lied, Da Capo, Kono Minikuku mo Utsukushii Sekai and some other ones as well...and I was wondering whether cousin relationships are common in Japan or something else...

I doubt they're particularly common in real life... I think it's more that it gives a pre-existing base for the relationship, and makes for a more interesting story as a result. There are also other factors... most people have cousins so it gives them a way to relate to the character, and there's also the "onii-chan" factor, plus a slight taboo... All in all, accepting romantic feelings for someone who you've known since childhood is a pretty common theme in anime/manga/visual novels/etc. largely for dramatic and practical reasons, and probably precisely because it's less common than "real life".