Code Geass R2 - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by Lowell1025

Aside from lack of in-anime or in-game evidence that supports your claim of "Lelouch not giving out such a geass command to other people (besides Suzaku) is because he doesn't want to enslave their will"-(feel free to rephrase this to your version because this is the important clause we are disputing on), there's so many things that are wrong with your "if a man won't eat apples because he dislikes it, he won't eat all fruit" analogy.

As things goes, "Lelouch didn't geass people that way because the director of the show felt that would make the story bland", or "such a geass command was never within the thought range of the writer from the start" are equally plausible explanations as to why Lelouch didn't give out such a geass command-there are other possible reasons why the man won't eat fruit other than that he dislikes them-I agree with you on that he won't eat apples because he dislikes them, but you are not convincing me on the point that the man's disfavor of the apple applies to all other fruits, and that "dislike" being the sole reason he won't eat them.

I take this theory and explanation to heart because if helps explain why he hasn't done it at all in the series too ANYONE when he clearly has the option, and therefore has already shown that he will not touch any fruits, including apples!!!!! The focus on the writers aside, there also has to be an in-universe explanation in order for the story to make sense as well, because in the series itself the almighty writers don't exist, and thus we require a plot answer in order for it to work out >_>

eh...it's boiling down to personal takes on the matter rather than presenting convincing analogy to prove our points. Guess we never had it all along....

Short story though, it's not going to happen, and that's basically that <_<

Does the term "ego" ring a bell or two?

Pride is the word here, along with absolutely ruthless aggression because I like Alucard enjoy making my adversaries squeal like pigs

providing conclusive evidence/analogy that proves your claim will do the job

It's called logic, connect dots A to B and that should explain C in this case, try using it sometimes, it works wonders with math and physics

[Lowell1025]

I take this theory and explanation to heart because if helps explain why he hasn't done it at all in the series too ANYONE when he clearly has the option, and therefore has already shown that he will not touch any fruits, including apples!!!!! The focus on the writers aside, there also has to be an in-universe explanation in order for the story to make sense as well, because in the series itself the almighty writers don't exist, and thus we require a plot answer in order for it to work out >_>

Thank you for respecting me enough to let me know on your position, and I can also correlates to want things happening around us to be explained, but I am content with leaving something as "I just don't know enough to draw a conclusion" which gave me a lot of flexibility

Should you still want to continue on any rational discussion on the validity of your claims ( please ignore the rest if you don't want to), my refute on the point that lack of evidence still stands, since nowhere in both the game nor anime had the "obey my every command" geass being even mentioned, let alone Lelouch had shown to have any thoughts about it. He is not willing to make Suzaku join him by the power of geass, that much is true, but even then you can't say for certain it is solely because he dislikes enslaving another's will- ----- A) Suzaku being an important person to Lelouch, B) to prove that Lelouch's view was valid all along by convincing the opposition to join him in the end (the opposition only mattered because its from someone Lelouch cared about), C) make Suzaku Nunally's knight-------any of these claims could be either the main, or one of, the reasons why Lelouch don't want to geass Suzaku. To me, for you to draw the conclusion "Lelouch dislikes enslaving other people's will" basing on these kind of facts is not logical.

Now that both us made our position in the matter quiet clear, I hope we can cope with the differences in our takes on the matter and make any further discussion more fruitful and organised, hence the phrase "disagree without being disagreeable". But I am glad we have managed to avoid an argument being boiled down to mindless personal attacks or lowly downplays of the opponent.

It's called logic, connect dots A to B and that should explain C in this case, try using it sometimes, it works wonders with math and physics

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by Lowell1025

Thank you for respecting me enough to let me know on your position, and I can also correlates to want things happening around us to be explained, but I am content with leaving something as "I just don't know enough to draw a conclusion" which gave me a lot of flexibility

Should you still want to continue on any rational discussion on the validity of your claims ( please ignore the rest if you don't want to), my refute on the point that lack of evidence still stands, since nowhere in both the game nor anime had the "obey my every command" geass being even mentioned, let alone Lelouch had shown to have any thoughts about it. He is not willing to make Suzaku join him by the power of geass, that much is true, but even then you can't say for certain it is solely because he dislikes enslaving another's will- ----- A) Suzaku being an important person to Lelouch, B) to prove that Lelouch's view was valid all along by convincing the opposition to join him in the end (the opposition only mattered because its from someone Lelouch cared about), C) make Suzaku Nunally's knight-------any of these claims could be either the main, or one of, the reasons why Lelouch don't want to geass Suzaku. To me, for you to draw the conclusion "Lelouch dislikes enslaving other people's will" basing on these kind of facts is not logical.

How so exactly? I have one example where such a command was given, and despite it being Suzaku it was still an example and this was the reaction garnered by Lelouch. Then let us factor in the fact Lelouch has never issued such a command to anyone before, and the only reference we have on such an example is this one, and by matching it too Lelouch's own personality (do not abuse the weak, taking control of life with his own strength, free will and equality, etc. etc.) I find that this example can work to apply on a broader level for all other incidents concerning his Geass, because once again he hasn't done it, and please do not bring up the writers, this is a in-universe conclusion and thus the writers themselves cannot be that reason behind why this aspect is not explored further, an answer within the plot itself must exist as well.

Now that both us made our position in the matter quiet clear, I hope we can cope with the differences in our takes on the matter and make any further discussion more fruitful and organised, hence the phrase "disagree without being disagreeable". But I am glad we have managed to avoid an argument being boiled down to mindless personal attacks or lowly downplays of the opponent.

Sure, sure, but please take a look at this one assessment before you reach that my conclusion makes no sense >_>

Sarcasm aside, it's a simple way in order to formulate a theory that should make sense. We have A (Lelouch's reaction when Suzaku was put under a similar order in the game) plus B (Lelouch has not used this order on anyone in the series)= C (By conclusion, one could theorize that Lelouch's reaction is the reason why he has yet to issue such an order up till now) I know you would simply like to exempt this purely because Suzaku was a close friend of his but my main point once again that Lelouch has yet to do it to anyone else as well, and this is the only example that gave a possible reason as why he has yet to issue such an order up to this point in the series. Basically, my main point and my counter to your argument that he can do something like this is the fact that he hasn't, and therefore a reason must exist, and the only possible reason given thus far in this scenario was the one with Suzaku in the game, while fitting the type of persona Lelouch has portrayed, so is it really that hard to formulate such a conclusion based on all these elements?

[Lowell1025]

Sorry Krimson we'd have to leave this for later, occupancy hazard I hope you understand. I'll see if I can squeeze some time this weekend.

[KrimzonStriker]

Take your time, my scythe of doom is waiting in the wings to clip yours whenever you're ready

[Dream_Traveller]

You make pithy squabbling a hobby, don't you...

[Ascaloth]

@KrimzonStriker,

Careful, friend. You're treading dangerously close to Appeal to Probability territory with your argument based on a fictional form of Counterfactual History.

Just because Lelouch wasn't agreeable to giving that particular Geass order in the game doesn't mean there's absolutely no possibility whatsoever that it'll be the same in the anime.

[Dream_Traveller]

Appeal to probability, hm...that applies to the majority of Dann's posts concerning Kallen, as well.

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

@KrimzonStriker,

Careful, friend. You're treading dangerously close to Appeal to Probability territory with your argument based on a fictional form of Counterfactual History.

Just because Lelouch wasn't agreeable to giving that particular Geass order in the game doesn't mean there's absolutely no possibility whatsoever that it'll be the same in the anime.

He hasn't been agreeable to giving this order in the anime either though, because he has yet to do so period, and he won't be doing so because that is the restriction the writers put on him, as well as the fact that many of these writers also worked on the game as well to come up with the various endings they knew wouldn't happen in the series but wanted to explore nonetheless and show the fans how some of the endings and aspects could have turned out. Because of the restriction placed on the writers, they explored a scenario where they did have such an order take place through the game, and that was the result. So yes, I think it is possible to tie in the in-game plot to that of the anime itself based on all these factors in order to provide a solid plot explanation as to why Lelouch has not and will not give out such an order. >_>

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

He hasn't been agreeable to giving this order in the anime either though, because he has yet to do so period, and he won't be doing so because that is the restriction the writers put on him, as well as the fact that many of these writers also worked on the game as well to come up with the various endings they knew wouldn't happen in the series but wanted to explore nonetheless and show the fans how some of the endings and aspects could have turned out. Because of the restriction placed on the writers, they explored a scenario where they did have such an order take place through the game, and that was the result. So yes, I think it is possible to tie in the in-game plot to that of the anime itself based on all these factors in order to provide a solid plot explanation as to why Lelouch has not and will not give out such an order. >_>

I know, but IMHO Lelouch's merely not having thought of giving such an order in the anime yet means that it's not yet "all conditions have been cleared". It's true that you have overwhelming evidence at your disposal, but for my part I believe that only if the anime itself shows Lelouch considering and then conclusively rejecting such a course of action would "all conditions have been cleared".

Basically, try not to take such an unbending stance; what if in the off-chance that the Sunrise writers actually have the anime Lelouch do that against all your predictions? If you're wrong, you look like the biggest fool ever; if Lowell is wrong, he can always say "well like KS said, it's true they hinted at Lelouch's character being like that". It's pure game theory, who do you think is at risk of losing out more?

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

I know, but IMHO Lelouch's merely not having thought of giving such an order in the anime yet means that it's not yet "all conditions have been cleared". It's true that you have overwhelming evidence at your disposal, but for my part I believe that only if the anime itself shows Lelouch considering and then conclusively rejecting such a course of action would "all conditions have been cleared".

Basically, try not to take such an unbending stance; what if in the off-chance that the Sunrise writers actually have the anime Lelouch do that against all your predictions? If you're wrong, you look like the biggest fool ever; if Lowell is wrong, he can always say "well like KS said, it's true they hinted at Lelouch's character being like that". It's pure game theory, who do you think is at risk of losing out more?

Nothings ever a 100% guarantee unless it actually happens, you can only ever work off of trying to form the most probable of conclusions and as much evidence as possible, and from this standpoint I've created what at least appears to be the most likely conclusion, and it isn't pure game theory it also corresponds to my dependence on the fact that such a scenario has not and will not likely ever happen based on proclaimed conditions set on by the writers, thus the in-plot answer must be formed in order to actually explain it within the context of the story is basically my main point. And if it does on the off-chance swing that way then the statistics go from about 80% to 50% in my estimations on how he will react because by doing so they break the norm and limit they set on themselves, but until then I believe the silence on the matter speaks for itself and provides a big part of my conclusion, which is why we likely will not ever see this type of scenario play out even if it isn't a 100% guaranteed until the series actually ends on that note. Even so, I think I'll place my bets on this answer given the odds

[DesuX2]

Why is the chess match so obsessed over? In any case, it was metaphorical, shouldn't the bride-stealing be the highlight of the show?

[ZeroSama]

He'd probably have given the order "obey all my commands" if the geass had a shortish duration. However as Carve-tan proved there was no limit on how long the geass would last so it would've been essentially slavery for life.

However he could use the geass he placed on that Gohai on scum like him(The rest of the Eunnch's, Clovis etc). It wasn't slavery per seh it just turned him into a Zero fanboy.