2012-09-01, 18:15 | Link #42 | |
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This mini-discussion stems from itachi-san's post concerning Obito's "genius", even going so far as to compare him to Sasuke (he was actually comparing Tobi to Sasuke, but whatever...). In reality, Sasuke has beaten Obito (whether he is Tobi or not) in nearly every category required for the title of "genius", additionally he has surpassed Obito at nearly every milestone. |
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2012-09-01, 18:36 | Link #43 | ||
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Hell at this point this whole war is basically 2 Uchiha against the entire world and the world isn't looking so good. Quote:
Sasuke awakened the Sharingan and countered a Genjutsu from Itachi when he was 7. The fact that he lived in peace during the next 5 years and thus wasn't put in a situation where he was forced to improve again has no bearing on that. |
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2012-09-01, 23:22 | Link #44 |
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@james ^what Hunter said. i did say obito was a genius, but i also said that he was a late bloomer. i stand by both of those. tobi doesn't just use kamui, but even if he did, kamui and it's various applications are an extremely difficult technique to master (just look at how kakashi has gone about it and he's a genius, I think you'd agree) he fought minato on near equal ground a long time ago, he's fighting KM Naruto, Bee and Hachibi, Kakashi and Gai all at once, ~well, what Hunter said =)
also, I did forget about sasuke's first sharingan use so thanks for the reminder, but that's actually beside the point. and it's still arguable that obito got them faster since he got 2 in each eye at once. sasuke's did not manifest as strongly at first. and this is assuming that tobi is just obito just to clarify my point |
2012-09-01, 23:27 | Link #45 |
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Sorry, Kishimoto's overuse of certain abilities often causes me to begin underestimating the character simply because their main attack has become "known" (no, I am not talking about the whole dimension thing, but rather the fact that we have seen the attack used so often.).
That being said, I did allude to the fact that Obito (if he was Tobi during the fight with Minato) would have been one of the handful of shinobi that was Kage-level (whatever that means) by the age of 15 (Naruro and Sasuke being other prime examples of this). Last edited by james0246; 2012-09-01 at 23:41. |
2012-09-02, 07:05 | Link #47 |
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If we look at Kakashi's fights against Pain or Tobi he would have won those fights if it were not for the enemy having godlike abilities, so compared to Kakashi Tobi is average. Maybe we should not call people like Nagato and Tobi geniuses just because they know how to use their godlike abilities. Nagato was outsmarted by both Naruto and Kakashi, and we see how Kakashi outsmarted Tobi in this fight. Kakashi and Tobi learning kamui is also a completely different matter, Tobi has both Uchiha and Senju DNA in him, sure he can naturally use kamui, whereas for Kakashi even one use is exhausting enough, so learning how to use it and awekening the MS makes him a genius but not Tobi. Also Tobi is a loser, he lost every important battle, he lost against Minato, he already lost control over Sasuke, he lost control over the 4th mizukage, etc. Losing so many times despite having carefully planned things and having super-powers doesn't sound like being a genius
Tobi can be Obito if it's just a matter of skill, sure it sounds impossible but Kishimoto sure could somehow explain it if he wants. Like in the case of Sasuke, where Orochimaru says Sasuke has more talent than Itachi, or other flashbacks about Sasuke and his father. But the reason why i call the Tobi=Obito bullshit is that there's not even the slightest trace of Obito's personality in Tobi, not even when he fights his sensei just a few years after his "death". A 15 year old Obito driving the 4th hokage to a decision to sacrifice his and Kushina's life sounds ridiculous |
2012-09-02, 09:28 | Link #48 | |
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i agree tobi is not as smart as shikamaru or kakashi but it doesn't mean he's not a genius. sasuke and orochimaru are both labeled geniuses and they have each done some stupid things. also, if just using the 'skilled' genius definition, tobi is one of the elite geniuses |
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2012-09-02, 10:32 | Link #49 |
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The word GENIUS is being thrown around WAY TOO MUCH in naruto. I get some are really geniuses like madara, izuna and shikamaru but Tobi is not. Like others have pointed out his genius plans always fail. Next thing we are going to be call sakura genius.
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2012-09-02, 10:35 | Link #50 | ||
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Last edited by milan kyuubi; 2012-09-03 at 11:10. |
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2012-09-02, 11:29 | Link #51 | ||
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The word genius is thrown around a lot because the story is focused on them instead of the countless regular ninja joe who die by the tens of thousand. Incidentally it does look like Sakura is a prodigy in the analyze and confection of antidote and poison for example. Quote:
Once upon a time I'd have argued with that but with the author's massive hard-on for Itachi/Minato I can't see the point. Still, Itachi being the better of the two doesn't make Sasuke any less of a genius, just not the best. |
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2012-09-02, 12:44 | Link #54 | |
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But i have a deja vu feeling now, i think we already had this discussion But of course i agree that compared to average ninja both Tobi and Nagato are geniuses despite they have a huge advantage because of their godlike abilities. My point was that i consider Kakashi and a few others smarter than these guys. The problem with the definition of genius is that for example if you live in a poor place in africa you won't get a nobel prize, but with the same talent in a rich western country you have a much better chance. |
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2012-09-02, 12:54 | Link #55 | |
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the ratio of geniuses to normal ninja is actually pretty realistic. we are talking about let's say the top 20 ninja of all time. 50,000 normal ninja just died in this war and that's just from the number of ninja who were alive as of a couple days ago. top 20 all time is a very low percentage of these geniuses that are now being labeled as 'everybody' by some readers. |
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2012-09-02, 13:34 | Link #56 | ||
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More than that the example you use is in fact exactly the opposite of your own argument, Itachi won because he had one broken ability tailor-made for his opponent (as usual). Itachi didn't outsmart Kabuto, he outlooked him with a new Deus ex Sharingan. Take this ability away from him like you do with Nagato and Tobi and his last fight becomes completely one sided against him. Quote:
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2012-09-02, 13:38 | Link #57 | |
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There are apparently about 80,000 ninjas in the world, assuming the Five Great Countries and their periphery are the whole world. 40,000 of these died in one day - BEFORE the White Zetsu clones and Madara. I think it's safe to say we're down to at least 20,000 now. That's incredibly staggering and it makes you wonder if anyone other than the main cast is going to survive. |
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2012-09-02, 16:46 | Link #59 | ||
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But since you mention it, Itachi did outsmart Kabuto when Kabuto tried to eat Sasuke and also by letting him believe that he could sense where Kabuto is. It's because of Itachi's genius that they survived until the point where Itachi could activate Izanami. Well apparently my definition of genius is more based on how someone can perform in a ninja battle relative to his abilities while yours is more about how strong someone managed to become. Also i do not count physical abilities like having a rinnegan eye as being a genius. I mean a child Nagato killing a chuunin with his rinnegan doesn't mean he was a genius. |
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2012-09-02, 17:29 | Link #60 | ||
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