Under what circumstances is anime accepted by a more mainstream audience?

[hyl]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'm not talking about the Toei Kanon. I'm talking about the much more commercially successful KyoAni Kanon. Given that the KyoAni Kanon was the much more commercially successful one, I thought it was clear it was the one I was talking about. However, perhaps I should have made that explicit. Sorry about that.

TBH i thought you were talking about the Toei version XD
The KyoAni Kanon was very likely (re)made after the huge succes of Air (and the original VN was made after Kanon) though.

edit:
I still can't seem to find the sales on Air, Kanon and clannad in the US.

[speedyexpress48]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Clearly there wasn't much backlash over the Kanon anime chucking the sex scenes, or the Kanon anime would not have sold as well as it did. Which kind of suggests that the sex scenes in the Kanon VN weren't one of the main reasons for its commercial success.

It wasn't, no (and besides, Key does make some of the worst sex scenes in the VN industry...don't ask me how I know that ) But the question is, would the Kanon VN have sold as well if it wasn't a 18+ eroge? It might have, but I have serious doubts about it. Now Clannad did pretty well and it was all-ages, but by then Key already gained their solid foothold in the industry for storytelling.

Point is...Kanon did become popular due to its story. But without the sex part, would people have bothered looking at it in the first place? I really do doubt it. Also, like I said, Kanon probably sold horribly in the US due to the fact that the SAVE edition disks exist.

[bhl88]

What are these SAVE edition discs?

[jdennis007]

SAVE is basically a bargain priced anime line.

[speedyexpress48]

Originally Posted by bhl88

What are these SAVE edition discs?

Funimation's "cheap" bargain anime releases with minimal special features, usually pushed out when the full boxsets don't really sell.

[bhl88]

Ah so that's why...

Sadly no save edition for Aniplex.

[speedyexpress48]

Originally Posted by bhl88

Ah so that's why...

Sadly no save edition for Aniplex.

Different business models (low margins=high profits), plus Aniplex stuff usually does have a pretty good guarantee when it comes to investment return. Not so with a lot of Funi licenses.

[bhl88]

Yeah, I hear a lot of complaints in ANN, Facebook...

[speedyexpress48]

Anyways, now that this news has come out;

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...ting-in-august

SAO isn't exactly your typical otaku anime, I'll give you that, BUT it does still rely heavily on otaku tropes, what with the incest part and whatnot (not to mention the anime itself is drawn in a "moe" style, which turns off some viewers, apperently.) Now, assuming this thing doesn't get cut to hell and back, we may see some more "otaku anime" getting shown on Adult Swim, like Madoka Magica or Oreimo (don't laugh...AS put it on a poll of "What would you like to see next on Toonami"); so, folks, the success (or flopping) of SAO could determine how "otaku anime" does on a somewhat mainstream cable network.

It's not exactly what the poster is asking for, but if it succeeds on AS, then that's a hella lot mainstream than "watching it on the internet".

[relentlessflame]

Well, by the same token, Toonami nowadays is a late-night/middle-of-the-night block (12am to 5am) that isn't actually so dissimilar to the way this same sort of anime airs in Japan -- in the middle of infomercial hours when most people aren't even awake. So it's bigger than "watching on the Internet", sure... but still not quite the same way Toonami used to be back in the day (when it aired in prime time).

Besides that... given the timeslot, it doesn't even really need to "succeed" by that much of a measure. It'll probably just play through its 26-episode run. When it's over, they can replace it with a different show. If Aniplex is pitching something in for the broadcast, then it may matter even less.

That aside, my experience is that neither the artstyle nor the use of tropes are too big of a barrier to people with a medium amount of anime exposure, or particularly people with experience playing JRPGs/MMORPGs. (I'd wager the latter is your best target audience, and the show seems to resonate most with this group.)

[speedyexpress48]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, by the same token, Toonami nowadays is a late-night/middle-of-the-night block (12am to 5am) that isn't actually so dissimilar to the way this same sort of anime airs in Japan -- in the middle of infomercial hours when most people aren't even awake. So it's bigger than "watching on the Internet", sure... but still not quite the same way Toonami used to be back in the day (when it aired in prime time).

True, but on the other hand, "otaku anime" probably wouldn't work in prime time anyways; heck, even American "hits" like GITS or NGE were basically shown on Adult Swim. Like I said before, this is probably the ONLY way that most of the anime discussed here will get anywhere near mainstream at this point.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Besides that... given the timeslot, it doesn't even really need to "succeed" by that much of a measure. It'll probably just play through its 26-episode run. When it's over, they can replace it with a different show. If Aniplex is pitching something in for the broadcast, then it may matter even less.

Aniplex basically announced they weren't pitching in for the show; average viewership for anime on that block is somewhere in the 500,000s, so it doesn't need that much to succeed, but...

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

That aside, my experience is that neither the artstyle nor the use of tropes are too big of a barrier to people with a medium amount of anime exposure, or particularly people with experience playing JRPGs/MMORPGs. (I'd wager the latter is your best target audience, and the show seems to resonate most with this group.)

I dunno-a lot of older AS fans are basically opposed to anything "moe-looking", and they aren't exactly big RPG fans either.

Of course, this will probably be successful, but not exactly a "hit". Only time will tell.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by speedyexpress48

I dunno-a lot of older AS fans are basically opposed to anything "moe-looking", and they aren't exactly big RPG fans either.

Well, I don't know what the demographic for this late-night block is. I'm not sure if it generally sways as old as the "older AS fans". If you look at what they're currently airing, I'd say it's not really there to appeal to oldschool anime fans exactly.

But that aside... I don't think it looks so different from other anime that have aired on that channel. It has a simple, streamlined modern anime look. I don't think that part would be a problem.

[Akito Kinomoto]

How much of a difference is there between the "age thresholds" of Toonami and [adult swim] these days?

[speedyexpress48]

Originally Posted by Akito Kinomoto

How much of a difference is there between the "age thresholds" of Toonami and [adult swim] these days?

Now that Toonami is no longer a prime time kids block, pretty much none.

[GDiddy]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I agree with Sackett on Madoka Magica.

I also think that Nanoha could be mainstreamed with some edits, and pitching it at a young female audience.

A lot of the all-girls shows aimed at otakus could conceivably be pitched to young female audiences if marketed well and maybe edited slightly. It's not hard for me to see where teenage girls could like something like K-On!, for example.

Except that they tried that years ago with Cardcaptor Sakura, got mad that it wasn't attracting the audience that they thought it would(boys) and chopped it up to where it was a pale shadow of its former self.

The only way something female oriented would ever wind up on tv is being edited to bits....or include a princess that they could market to the kiddies. Though truthfully, I'm surprised more teenage girls aren't into K-ON; if I had a daughter, I'd let her watch that instead of Barbie/Disney Princess shit.

[speedyexpress48]

Originally Posted by GDiddy

Except that they tried that years ago with Cardcaptor Sakura, got mad that it wasn't attracting the audience that they thought it would(boys) and chopped it up to where it was a pale shadow of its former self.

The only way something female oriented would ever wind up on tv is being edited to bits....or include a princess that they could market to the kiddies. Though truthfully, I'm surprised more teenage girls aren't into K-ON; if I had a daughter, I'd let her watch that instead of Barbie/Disney Princess shit.

I said it before, but...to make Nanoha work as a kids show in the US, you would have to chop it to the point where it becomes "4kids editing", and once you get to the later seasons...well, you would be stuck with something that is basically unwatchable for any adult (and hell, it'll be such a trainwreck that it would pretty much fail), and I'm sure no one wants that to happen. Which is why that if they broadcast it here (lol like that'll ever happen...well...ok...), I want it to be an Adult Swim/Toonami show. It'll be cut, sure, but to a reasonable point where it'll get a decent fanbase (and on that front, the Nanoha series does fit the action part of the block).

On the other hand though...I do agree with Triple_R on the "otaku shows marketed to girls" bit, but that only works for certain shows like K-On. YuruYuri...haha...no.

[SeijiSensei]

I'd like to make just two points.

First, it seems the concept of "mainstream" being touted here is the quixotic belief that anime would be routinely shown on foreign, particularly American, television networks or at the movies. That will not happen in my lifetime, and while most of you have a lot more years to go than me, I don't see it happening in your lifetimes either.

However I also think anime has already become mainstream if we look instead at the Internet and, particularly, streaming services. In just a few years anime has become widely available on services like Hulu and Crunchyroll as well as those from the main licensors like Funimation and Sentai. Plus, as I have expected for some time now, the Japanese studios are beginning to see global streaming as a source of revenue as exemplified in the Daisuki partnership.

Streaming has one other important advantage over ordinary television. It enables people to watch a show with an extended plot in a manageable way. Network television has always eschewed continuing stories in favor of episodic ones because they know full well that viewers do not watch most shows week-in and week-out. This perspective has started to change some because of DVRs, "on-demand" channels that archive recent episodes, and Hulu. But equating "mainstream" with "television" misses all the important trends in the video industry. In the new world where streaming is a major player, anime is doing better now than at any time I can recall.

[Triple_R]

I reiterate what I wrote here about what constitutes "mainstream":

This, to me, would constitute anime going mainstream:

1) It's part of "water cooler talk" at everyday workplaces. Co-workers can bring it up, and discuss it, without it seeming weird. At least, they can do this about the most popular of the recent titles. In my neck of the woods, this is true of pro sports, pro wrestling, video games, some American TV dramas, and movies in general. In fairness, it's also true of some older anime shows.

2) Stories of economic success for businesses heavily invested in anime can be found in the mainstream news. When anime is discussed seriously on CNN or BBC, and it's for commercial reasons, then that'll be a pretty good sign of anime being mainstream.

-------------------------------------

Mainstream isn't just "popular". In a world of billions, even niche products can be "popular".

"Mainstream" means that Joe and Jane Average is aware of it, and consider it something worth talking about sometimes. It also usually means massive economic success.

Now, in fairness, that could conceivably be true of anime in some places. Maybe there are some places where people talk about anime at the water cooler. But my impression is that this isn't true for most of us.


To be fair, I think that more people are aware of anime than ever before. And yes, that's due to the internet. But that awareness hasn't translated to anime penetrating pop culture the way that, say, Apple iPhones have. Or that Justin Beiber has. Or that Twilight has. Or that superhero movies have.

[Random32]

Watercooler conversation acceptability is just that, acceptability. Just because it is acceptable to talk about doesn't make it mainstream.

I can have a watercooler conversation about expensive headphones or linguistics, provided I have something interesting to say. Does that mean that being an audiophile or linguist is mainstream? Of course not. It means that if you have something interesting to say about expensive headphones or linguistics, people are will talk about it with you about it, i.e., it is acceptable to discuss.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

This, to me, would constitute anime going mainstream:

1) It's part of "water cooler talk" at everyday workplaces.

2) Stories of economic success for businesses heavily invested in anime can be found in the mainstream news.

If those are the criteria, then anime will never be "mainstream" in the West.

(2) in particular is highly unlikely, since anime is a tiny industry by global standards. There was this article in the New York Times back in 2011 about the value of anime to Hulu. Since Hulu is owned by Newscorp, Disney, and Comcast, that gave the story broader appeal among those following the media industries. But if we replaced "anime" with "K-dramas" or some equally obscure foreign genre, the story would have been fairly similar.

Originally Posted by article

Typically shown with subtitles and known for characters with wide glimmering eyes and elongated bodies, anime stands at the center of Hulu’s strategy to differentiate itself from TV watched the old-fashioned way. “Networks might be happy to get a show that 20 million people kind of like,” said Andy Forssell, Hulu’s senior vice president for content. “We’re more interested in finding a show that a million people love to death.”