Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[Rising Dragon]

This is never going to go away, is it?

[Charred Knight]

Which?

People thinking Lelouch lived or me bitching about R2

[yvj]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

He's saying that virtually all these characters who ended up in positions of power are murderers, even mass murderers, with the exception of Ohgi who's too incompetent to be trusted with such tasks.

Cornelia arguably committed many war crimes we never saw and several that we did (Saitama Ghetto in episode 7, for one). Schenizel funded a weapon which killed millions, and fired it himself at least once. Nine created that weapon. Nunnally fired that weapon, probably a dozen times at least, and killed thousands doing it. Suzaku fired the first one at a city and killed the initial 10 million.

None of them will ever be punished for it, in the conventional sense at least. Hell, Cornelia didn't even get an unconventional punishment (not counting Euphy because it's completely unrelated), just some non-lethal bullet wounds and a couple of months spent in hiding.

Suzaku is the only one who has been punished. A punishment of course that he chose to inflict upon himself.

Cornelia's punishment was that she would fall in love and spend the rest of her life with a very dedicated man. Schenizel will likely go down in history under a favorable light instead of the complete douche bag that he is.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by yvj

Suzaku is the only one who has been punished. A punishment of course that he chose to inflict upon himself.

Cornelia's punishment was that she would fall in love and spend the rest of her life with a very dedicated man. Schenizel will likely go down in history under a favorable light instead of the complete douche bag that he is.

Suzaku punishes himself so much I wouldn't even call it punishment. He's two steps away from getting off on it, and frankly he got off lucky. He basically got a life of luxury in exchange for wearing a mask, and it's not like he gave up a good deal of human contact considering how much effort he puts into making himself lonely. In short, the people that should have paid something got a free pass while the ones the universe hates get screwed.

[yvj]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Suzaku punishes himself so much I wouldn't even call it punishment. He's two steps away from getting off on it, and frankly he got off lucky. He basically got a life of luxury in exchange for wearing a mask, and it's not like he gave up a good deal of human contact considering how much effort he puts into making himself lonely. In short, the people that should have paid something got a free pass while the ones the universe hates get screwed.

I don't disagree with you completely. For one thing Suzaku was probably going to wander the earth like Cain after Euphie died anyway.

But in contrast to the others. He's relatively punished, killing Lelouch was a part of it as well.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by yvj

I don't disagree with you compeltely. For one thing Suzaku was probably going to wander the earth like Cain after Euphie died anyway.

But in contrast to the others. He's relatively punished, killing Lelouch was a part of it as well.

Fair enough, he certainly did get the short stick, so to speak, compared to the others.

[Charred Knight]

Compared to Ougi who betrays Lelouch, sides with a madman who builds a doom fortress and somehow becomes Prime Minister?

Yeah, I am fine with Suzaku's punishment even if it comes off as Suzaku just being his masochist self.

Its more people like Cornelia, Nina, and Ougi who don't have anything bad happen to them.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Which?

People thinking Lelouch lived or me bitching about R2

People thinking Lelouch living. I already know you're never gonna stop. :V

[snowdevil_crow]

Both, I'd say! D:

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Compared to Ougi who betrays Lelouch, sides with a madman who builds a doom fortress and somehow becomes Prime Minister?

Yeah, I am fine with Suzaku's punishment even if it comes off as Suzaku just being his masochist self.

Its more people like Cornelia, Nina, and Ougi who don't have anything bad happen to them.

Because it usually happens like this. It is the ones, that do the most-shiatt, but they are "smooth" while doing it, and in the end, we get "frame-cheeese-all is right with the world".
Oh well, can't have it all now, can you? 8)

[snowdevil_crow]

And for the record, I still don't understand the Ougi hate. Sure, he wasn't a saint or anything, but I think he was completely justified in turning against Lelouch at the point he did, given the information that he had.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow

And for the record, I still don't understand the Ougi hate. Sure, he wasn't a saint or anything, but I think he was completely justified in turning against Lelouch at the point he did, given the information that he had.

It is not exactly about Ougi himself {though there are reasons, that he acted pretty much as a..Viletta-douche}, it is that a few people, think it is unfair, for Suzaku, Kallen, Nunnaly and C.C {i suppose} that worked hard for a better future, to experience the loss of their most important person in cost of this, one way or another.
While those, that pretty much, moved forward based on lies, half truths, committing horrible atrocities, get to smile in the end, like they are doing a Colgate-ad. Again, hello fiction-society. 8)
In the end, it is hate the game, not the player. |D;

[snowdevil_crow]

I didn't see many horrible atrocities from Ougi. :/ He always seemed like a nice guy to me... for a terrorist, of course.

And wasn't that the whole point of Zero Requiem, anyway? Lelouch would take on all the world's hatred and suffering so that no one else would have to suffer...?

[yvj]

I'll say this: Oughi did some critical thinking with Ougi Jr (not the baby)

He took advantage of a gal with amnesia. And I don't think he needed much convincing from Schniezel to choose booty over Zero

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by yvj

I'll say this: Oughi did some critical thinking with Ougi Jr (not the baby)

He took advantage of a gal with amnesia. And I don't think he needed much convincing from Schniezel to choose booty over Zero

He didn't need any convincing from Schenizel. He came their with his mind made up and convinced the others. Any rational military leader would not have so easily bought that load, but when one of your own leaders is helping to sell it, it becomes a lot easier. That's why I don't like him: he not only betrayed Lelouch on the word of the enemy, he didn't even ask for proof.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow

And for the record, I still don't understand the Ougi hate. Sure, he wasn't a saint or anything, but I think he was completely justified in turning against Lelouch at the point he did, given the information that he had.

The information he had was stacked though. Even so, beyond that, he sided with Schneizel, one of their most dangerous enemies. Boneheaded at best, downright treacherous at worst.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

He didn't need any convincing from Schenizel. He came their with his mind made up and convinced the others. Any rational military leader would not have so easily bought that load, but when one of your own leaders is helping to sell it, it becomes a lot easier. That's why I don't like him: he not only betrayed Lelouch on the word of the enemy, he didn't even ask for proof.

For me it was the selling out to Schneizel

I mean its a great idea to have the Black Knights be so disgusted by Lelouch's actions they quit but then they immediatly sell out to Schneizel making them even worse than Lelouch.

[snowdevil_crow]

Stacked? How so?

He had proof that Zero could cause people to lose their memories --- look at Villetta. Okay, so we know that Zero didn't actually use Geass on her, but both of them believed he had. There was no reason for him to believe otherwise, especially when Villetta told him about the rest of the information about Geass that had been gathered by the Special Intelligence Agency or whatever it was called.

Not to mention Diethard knew about the Geass and confirmed it.

So this is what the Black Knights were told and given proof of: Zero was a Britannian Prince, Zero had a supernatural power, Zero ordered two massacres, and it was entirely possible that Zero had hypnotized them all into following him. Not to mention that he abandoned the first critical Battle of Tokyo at the end of season one (and demonstrated that he didn't care for Ougi, at least, at all around the same time, though Ougi either didn't know/didn't care at the beginning of the second season). Oh, and he showed no concern for the Japanese or any of his warriors after FLEIJA went off (of course we know and understand why, but to them? That's just bad leadership. Well, it's still bad leadership even if we do know why, but it's more forgivable)

I'd say that's pretty good grounds to turn against him.

Of course, it was kind of stupid that none of them thought "Hey, if he really had Geassed us to follow him we'd be unable to betray him... o_0" ... though they didn't know exactly how Geass worked. It's possible that Ougi figured that bit out at least, given whatever information Villetta probably gave him, but he considered it insignificant enough next to the other stuff.

And he didn't 'side' with Schneizel, he negotiated with him. He said it himself, even though Zero had treated them badly he still didn't feel right just giving him over --- so he asked for the freedom of Japan in return, which was really what the Black Knights wanted from the very beginning.

No, I don't really see evil/treacherous Ougi at all. :/

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow

Stacked? How so?

He had proof that Zero could cause people to lose their memories --- look at Villetta. Okay, so we know that Zero didn't actually use Geass on her, but both of them believed he had. There was no reason for him to believe otherwise, especially when Villetta told him about the rest of the information about Geass that had been gathered by the Special Intelligence Agency or whatever it was called.

Not to mention Diethard knew about the Geass and confirmed it.

First, he took her at her word. I seriously doubt she kept a file cabinet in those fishnet stockings. "There was no reason for him to believe otherwise." Are you serious? The woman walks in and says, in effect, "your leader has magic powers." No rational man should have believed that. As said above, he was thinking with Ohgi Jr. and hung on her every word like an idiot. Diethard also doesn't confirm anything, at least not directly. He responds with, "Even if it's true, it's a good thing for us."

Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow

So this is what the Black Knights were told and given proof of: Zero was a Britannian Prince, Zero had a supernatural power, Zero ordered two massacres, and it was entirely possible that Zero had hypnotized them all into following him.

They weren't given any proof to that end. Schenizel just says who Lelouch is and Ohgi confirms it, likewise having taken it on faith. Zero having a supernatural power is also not confirmed except for a snippet of recording which could easily have been faked (how do they even know that's Lelouch voice?) and a pile of reports which are nothing but circumstantial guesswork. They were only told directly of the second massacre, and Tohdoh kept his mouth shut about that. The first, again, is subject to doubt. The last part is just paranoia, which they really have no excuse for given that they took all this on faith in the first place.

Proof? That they bought any of this with what they were given is downright stupid.

Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow

Not to mention that he abandoned the first critical Battle of Tokyo at the end of season one (and demonstrated that he didn't care for Ougi, at least, at all around the same time, though Ougi either didn't know/didn't care at the beginning of the second season). Oh, and he showed no concern for the Japanese or any of his warriors after FLEIJA went off (of course we know and understand why, but to them? That's just bad leadership. Well, it's still bad leadership even if we do know why, but it's more forgivable)

I'd say that's pretty good grounds to turn against him.

What he said about Ohgi was actually prudent. If the man's injured, you cart him off for treatment and replace him. They're in the middle of a war. You have a point in the bad leadership thing, but that is not an excuse for how they behaved.

Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow

Of course, it was kind of stupid that none of them thought "Hey, if he really had Geassed us to follow him we'd be unable to betray him... o_0" ... though they didn't know exactly how Geass worked. It's possible that Ougi figured that bit out at least, given whatever information Villetta probably gave him, but he considered it insignificant enough next to the other stuff.

Villetta obviously fed him enough info to make him realize that Knightmares against a lone person were a good precaution. Paranoia again, blinding them to logic and reason.

Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow

And he didn't 'side' with Schneizel, he negotiated with him. He said it himself, even though Zero had treated them badly he still didn't feel right just giving him over --- so he asked for the freedom of Japan in return, which was really what the Black Knights wanted from the very beginning.

No, I don't really see evil/treacherous Ougi at all. :/

That's siding with Schenizel, just with a stipulation. He basically fucked over their entire organization, and indeed the purpose of the war (which Kaguya got, as did Bismarck), just so he could get Japan. Short-sighted thinking at its finest.

Ohgi is a traitor, because he took everything on the word of the woman he loved without a shred of proof. Worse still, he lies about it, gets caught, and still doesn't get punished. He should have been relieved of duty or at least demoted.

[demon_god04]

Just out of curiousity.... Did Schneizel and Cornelia actually offer concrete and undeniable proof that Zero had super mystical magic powers at all? I only recall them saying Zero had powers and then pulled up a file on people they think he has Geassed.