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View Poll Results: Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 11 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 5 | 8.33% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 15 | 25.00% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 26 | 43.33% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 11 | 18.33% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 3 | 5.00% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 0 | 0% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 0 | 0% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 0 | 0% | |
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll |
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2013-06-22, 16:47 | Link #161 | |||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Besides, we don't know if the religion thing is a feature or a side-effect he's indifferent to. Or a necessity to get them to do things they consider non-sensical. Quote:
It's the difference between giving someone a fish and teaching someone to fish. Someone who doesn't necessarily want to learn. |
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2013-06-22, 18:39 | Link #162 | ||||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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They aren't better than the Evolvers if they threw away their human pride and rationality and worship a machine. Quote:
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Beside Pinion and his crew were already doing that without his meddling. As far as we know if we exclude the machine calibers he was actually in the most technologically advanced fleet. While Kugel/Striker were busy spreading their religion, Pinion was already retrieving lost technology.
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2013-06-22, 18:49 | Link #163 |
Snobby Gentleman
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Monterrey, México
Age: 43
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This episode puts me to think about the implications that Kugel offered to Ledo.
In his own terms or maybe what he has been taught and experienced at the GA, Kugel wishes for the Earth's happiness. What he means with dignity of the human race, probably he refers to that the people of Earth should no longer continue wandering in a sort of dark Ages unknown to technological progress. Technological progress must be brought forward upon the Earth and make humans free themselves from the stagnation that they've been living through, since they were left behind eras ago. Of course, everything must be done following the implementation of an orderly system so that Earthling humans can overcome through that transition smoothly. This is akin to the philosophy and living standards at GA. I don't know if it's certain for me to say that the GA society and system works fine for them, because their environment is a closed one and must continue to strive and compete in order to continue evolving their civlization and making it more advanced. Sure, humans on Earth have limited mobility, because they're forced to survive living aboard titanic-sized ships due that the Earth is mostly covered in ocean water and there's no dry land. My point that I want to make is that GA humans and Earthling humans have different perspectives regarding their living environments, because of the differences in how they're borned, raised, taught, and interacting with their respective environments. 1. GA humans simply are taught from birth that they're at constant war with the Hideauze and must strive to the fullest of their potential to work as a race for the benefit of human civilization. I presume that GA humans are assigned or designated a specific role that they must fulfill. 2. Earthling humans are taught from birth that survival lies in the welfare of their families joining together to become communities that interact with and depend upon each other. They see no reason at all to provoke the whalesquids or to kill unnecessarily. Those statements apply to the Gargantia, Flange's fleet, and other fleets that wish to set their examples. Now, I do not want to get to the topic about which humans are more flexible in their way of thinking, because that would be too biased against the GA humans. GA humans like Ledo are, after all, humans and capable of both abstract and flexible thinking. They simply were raised and educated with the needed information to fulfill their specific roles to maximize the cost-benefit efficiency. Therefore, they saw no reason to divert from what the GA taught them, if it was for the benefit of their kind. However, Earthling humans like Flange and Pinion digress about the implementation of Kugel's system, and, definitely, the Gargantia people also will as well. Even if they have to strive living from the ocean, they feel free to make individual choices and thinking independently. They do not see themselves as either soldiers or resources, but as people with individual thoughts that are capable of rallying together to form giant communities and co-existing in harmony with each other; they do not want to be imposed into an idea or system that would abruptly change their way of living, if displays of force or terror are used on them without provocation. I think that Kugel is doing what he views is needed for the Earth to survive. 1. Well, given the nature of this show, saying that Kugel wants to conquer the Earth is absurd. 2. Also, I do not think that Kugel is interested to leave his mark or record in history for bringing Enlightment to the Earhtling humans. 3. There could be a vague possibility that Kugel now deems inefficient the current system that the GA uses to lead the human society in space. Hence, he intends to bring Enlightment upon the Earthling humans in order for them to build a more efficient and more orderly human society. However, that possibility is as well nigh, because coming from the same environment as Ledo, Kugel is just intending to implement on Earth the same GA's cost-benefit system. |
2013-06-22, 19:31 | Link #164 |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Wow, the consensus, about who the mastermind is, has quite changed within a week...
Shortly after EP11 was released, most people seemed to be convinced that Striker was the mastermind and Kugel was still in stasis, sleep or simply fooled by Striker. But now, shortly before EP12, it seem most are convinced that Kugel is alive after all. Well we will know soon enough..
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2013-06-23, 05:06 | Link #165 | ||||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Treating the Hideauze - whether the bestial ones on Earth, or the ones in space which they've never seen - as an enemy worth all the sacrifices they make has to look pretty irrational for the Earthlings. Can they do it without religion being involved? Wouldn't they rather live in their comfortable, static routine rather than be force-marched to a strange future? Quote:
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2013-06-23, 06:24 | Link #166 |
Art Block Specialist
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Agreed. Again it comes down to context. GA's philosophy may be essential for them to survive in the ongoing war, but it's quite unnecessary for the people on Earth. It's highly possible that Kugel, having ignored everything about the culture of the people, thought that the GA way is the only way going forward. He's literally stuck in his own little world, stuck in his own ideas, stuck in his dated mentality, no different from a hikkikomori really.
...so this is a battle between an ex-NEET and a hikki at the rural setting.
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2013-06-23, 07:59 | Link #167 | |||||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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I remind you of what Ridget proposed in episode 2 about Chamber. She wanted to disassemble it in order to study it. Your assumption that they are content to use past technology without understanding it is denied right there. And this is from the current leader of Gargantia. Quote:
In fact we have probably a thousand or more people that revere a machine caliber as a god and not a single one among them that has the talent to understand GA level technology. From the other side you have a man that refers to machine calibers as "tin cans" and he happens to have the quality to understand them. I'm not saying that this is a definitive proof, but perhaps as long as you consider advanced technology as something divine in nature you can't really understand it, and as soon as you understand it you can't really worship it. This is why I think that the religious aspect of Striker's cult is negatively affecting their development. Quote:
I'm not sure how much serious you are about this, but do you really think it's perfectly all right or necessary in any way to let or make people revere a leader as a divinity? Especially when that leader is perfectly conscious he isn't? What would you think of someone doing that in the real world? Quote:
I don't think that there's any indication of that. And as long as it isn't proven otherwise I can only think that Kugel/Striker are using the Hideauze menace as a mere excuse to impose their ideal society. In fact they do not think of that as a necessary evil, but as an ideal in itself, regardless of the Hideauze. Quote:
Pinion was simply being realistic there, but Striker proposed to let him see the theories and the data to create new technologies, that's a whole different thing than reverse engineering.
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2013-06-23, 09:25 | Link #168 | ||||||||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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As for "false gods", that's just them being presumptuous. Like they're any different. Like they haven't extracted resources from their believers. Like they haven't pushed people into strange behaviors. Quote:
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And again, if the goal is to get them ready to go fight space monsters... While I would prefer rational discussion, I'm not entirely convinced it would work. Quote:
But why do you exclude the space Hideauze from your thinking? I think what they're working on is how to give spaceflight to the Earthling so they can join the fight up there. The Earth-bound ones are just an appetizer. |
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2013-06-23, 09:38 | Link #169 |
Highly irregular
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Age: 41
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It's not a lack of ambition; its a lack of knowledge. They only know how to barely operate their equipment now due to trial and error and study. They don't know everything about it and I bet they don't know all the basics on how it even works. They just know it does work and how to fix it up to a point. Doesn't mean they aren't trying to learn more about how it works so they can make their own
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2013-06-23, 14:53 | Link #170 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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What I meant is that while I personally am not religious, and don't understand religious fervor, I accept that some people are religious, and that it may have served societies well to have faithful amongst its populace. And that if you want a lot of people willing to set themselves on fire on your orders, you may well need religion, or something like it. |
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2013-06-24, 07:54 | Link #171 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Great commanders didn't need to claim themselves to be gods to have people die for them. The way I've always seen the GA was as a society driven by a strong ideology, and ideologies can work as well as religions for that purpose.
I feel that Striker or Kugel somehow betrayed the spirit of the alliance by not giving enough trust to the very ideology they believed in if they thought it wasn't effective enough and that it had to be replaced with a faith in something that they don't even believe in. If you don't draw a line, you might end up realizing that turning humans into mindless whalesquids is a more efficient way to reach the "galactic alliance's ideal of a perfect society". It becomes completely pointless if the human dignity isn't made a central point that can't be compromised for "efficiency" no matter what.
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2013-06-24, 10:39 | Link #173 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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I can recognize that trying to civilize a barbaric nation is a noble purpose even when misguided. From Striker/Kugel's perspective the objective should be to turn the earthling society into something close to the GA. But they aren't doing so, they instead spread or anyway support ideals and practices that aren't proper of a civilized society under GA standards and they know it. If they think they can't apply the GA way to them because they are "different", then they have failed from start. They have given up on a true civilization process. They settled for an aberration of the original ideal just because it was "easier".
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2013-06-24, 17:13 | Link #174 |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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It's moot after ep 12's reveals, but...
The point should have been to get people into space with technology they understood (as opposed to having a Machine Caliber giving them a lift, or even restored relics) on a large scale, and if possible get into contact with the GA. Everything could be solved after that, or at least it'd be somebody else's problem (especially as it may not happen in a human lifetime). I don't necessarily see religion and civilization as opposing forces. As I said, religion is a way to get people to do things they don't understand. They don't have to be bad things. |
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