[Manga] Naruto Chapter 601 Discussion Thread

[Artful Dodger]

Hm, I don't know, it doesn't seem like he had a reason to lie to Konan. Konan knowing the truth wouldn't prevent him from his goal at that point, and he was going for the kill anyway. Also, I don't think there are any solid, confirmed connections between the Uzumaki clan and the Rinnegan, especially since its now linked to the sharingan. Tobi was seen with a lab full of sharingan, and obviously has access to the 1st hokage's dna. Madara also knows Nagato by name and its apparent now that there was an established plan for Nagato to resurrect him, so Nagato gaining the rinnegan 100% on his own seems unlikely.

[Essenar]

Originally Posted by Hunter

He lied.

No, he didn't.

He was merely speaking on behalf of Madara.

"I have told you I am Madara, and Madara gave the Rinnegan to Nagato... Therefore since I am Madara, I gave him the Rinnegan and it belongs to me."

I don't think Obito sees himself as Obito anymore.

[strategos]

Madara played everyone like pieces on a chess game. Kinda of reminds me of of Lelouch.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Nintendo

i think by now its clear tobi lied about the giving the eye to nagato, he was in the middle of battle, he wants to win and he wants to make sure konan is off her game. what better way to screw with her mind then to toss out.....the eye belongs to me and i gave it to him.

No.
He kept the charade even after he gutted her like a fish, he kept acting as Madara in front of Kabuto even after Kabuto had summoned the real Madara. Hell he did it even when talking in private with Zetsu.
Kishimoto wanted his readers to believe Tobi was Madara but in doing so he went too far and filled his work with plotholes.

Originally Posted by Essenar

No, he didn't.

He was merely speaking on behalf of Madara.

No he was impersonating him, that's called lying.

[Essenar]

Originally Posted by Hunter

No.
He kept the charade even after he gutted her like a fish, he kept acting as Madara in front of Kabuto even after Kabuto had summoned the real Madara. Hell he did it even when talking in private with Zetsu.
Kishimoto wanted his readers to believe Tobi was Madara but in doing so he went too far and filled his work with plotholes.

No he was impersonating him, that's called lying.

Don't call it a plot hole because that's not what it is. Just because he went around telling everyone he was Madara doesn't mean it's a plot hole. That's merely him keeping up with what him and the real Madara planned. Zetsu, who was probably a tool for Madara long before Obito, probably didn't even know who Obito really was. Or maybe he did, but calling him Madara just makes more sense.

Up until the summoning of Madara, it's fairly plausible that Tobi was the only one who knew the real Madara's body was somewhere else.

And telling everyone that is a good idea, especially in Ninja Land where you never know who's listening/over-hearing. My uncle is a cop and he said when someone is undercover, they ALWAYS act like they're the undercover identity, even when they're alone. Because you NEVER know who's watching.

I'd say Obito always referring to himself as Madara isn't a plot hole at all. It's darn good writing is what it is.

[Hunter]

To people he had no need nor reason to lie to, to people who knew for a fact he wasn't who he claimed to be and to Zetsu who is in it and who talked to him without his mask? Yes that's what it is and no that's not good writing at all.
Good writing -among other things because this is a huge mess- would have been to build sentences that still made sense in insight instead of resorting to "it's amazing how the author made him act to the 4th walls"!

[j0x]

i hope we get to see a backstory of how Uchiha Madara and Senju Harashima fought, i know its already implied that Madara got some flesh of Harashima and experimented with his cells/DNA and also its already been speculated that Madara may have use the perfect Izanagi to create Zetsu out of Harashima's cells/DNA too... but i wanna know the details of how he done it

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Kishimoto wanted his readers to believe Tobi was Madara but in doing so he went too far and filled his work with plotholes.

i think there may be more to it than that. for instance, madara most likely trained obito and obviously had an overwhelming effect on his psyche. so when madara finally died/left obito's life he probably told obito that he was madara now. and obito just lived that way. he discarded his own identity which is why he said he was no one. and whenever he referenced his life or history he did so as if he was madara because that is what his master and savior wanted. for obito to become madara essentially, until he revived madara.

Originally Posted by The Small One

I don't really see much against the theory, that Madara transferred his memories to Obito, which would ultimately make Tobi = Madara.

yea, i still think a little madara is in obito as well to facilitate a lot of obito's quick development and knowledge, but even if he's not in there, i think my theory posted above will hold up if it's really just obito. it clears up the plot holes since obito was basically 'being' madara. i dont think thats bad writing. i'm certain kishi knew tobi was obito this whole time and would be aware of such problematic writing as is implied by some posters here.

that said, kishi is clearly not perfect, just reference A's suddenly grown back arm or edo-madara's un/cracked face to prove that the manga is not flawless. it may very well be a combination of intended lies and random mistakes. we won't ever know probably. we'll have a better idea when more is revealed but so far, i'm pretty content with the way things are shaping up. and i'm really excited to see where this flashback goes

[Essenar]

Originally Posted by Hunter

To people he had no need nor reason to lie to, to people who knew for a fact he wasn't who he claimed to be and to Zetsu who is in it and who talked to him without his mask? Yes that's what it is and no that's not good writing at all.
Good writing -among other things because this is a huge mess- would have been to build sentences that still made sense in insight instead of resorting to "it's amazing how the author made him act to the 4th walls"!

I'll just break this down for everyone:
1) Obito doesn't respond to Obito as his name. Meaning: He has abandoned that identity and no longer associates himself as Obito. So him not referring to himself as Obito in the past is NOT a plot hole. His exact words, "You can call me by that name if you want. To me it means nothing."
2) It does make sense. Because from the point his interactions ended with Madara, he no longer calls himself Obito. So all the sentences written in the past make perfect sense.

If you woke up one day and decided that you would no longer be Hunter but instead, Ranger. You HATE Hunter because of some characteristic about him you didn't like, or maybe you believe after spending months turning into Ranger that it's your real name. Or maybe you don't believe in names at all and you just used Ranger as a nickname to hide your identity or give people something to call you. Would it make sense for your partners who you trust, to call you by two different names? Oh hey guys, we're in the secret private room so call me OBITO, even though I don't believe I'm Obito anymore and I don't care about that name! Hehehehehehehehehehehe we're so secret!

Obito clearly gave up his ties to the Leaf Village and the name Obito during his encounters with Madara. From that point forward, he's not Obito anymore. And it makes PERFECT sense his closest allies don't call him Obito. Why would they, when they KNOW he gave that name up?
"Hey Obito... Should we get the Nine Tails now?"
"Why are you calling me that? I'm not Obito anymore."
"Because it's a huge plot hole. We're in the secret private room so I should call you Obito to show the audience I know your real identity."
"But I'm not Obito anymore..."

[Lunarskylar]

Clearly obito is crazy. I mean, remember back when he first made himself known to akatsuki, and he was all goofy and funny... And obito-like?

The whole deidara-sempai gag,
Honestly I wonder how kishi plans to explain the purpose of that

Alsoo, if this plan was in motion for so long.. And tobi basically has the ability to escape almost all damage, anddd enough sharingan to spam izanagi... LOL really why wasn't the plan
'fuck giving nagato the rinnegan.
Put it in my eye like I have now.
Use my bijuu chains of death, teleport to every jinchuuriki when they're asleep
Chain them up, activate izanagi, teleport them to my dimension,
Run like hell
Repeat until you have a jyuubi'

The only real purpose of the akatsuki was to remove the bijuuu from its host in the sealing ceremony, with all the years that they've been planning this, tobi could have easily captured majority of not all of the jinchuuriki, especially during the times they bwere just implanted into the host so they had little control over the beast's powers'

But yea no one would read that

[Essenar]

Originally Posted by Lunarskylar

Clearly obito is crazy. I mean, remember back when he first made himself known to akatsuki, and he was all goofy and funny... And obito-like?

The whole deidara-sempai gag,
Honestly I wonder how kishi plans to explain the purpose of that

Alsoo, if this plan was in motion for so long.. And tobi basically has the ability to escape almost all damage, anddd enough sharingan to spam izanagi... LOL really why wasn't the plan
'fuck giving nagato the rinnegan.
Put it in my eye like I have now.
Use my bijuu chains of death, teleport to every jinchuuriki when they're asleep
Chain them up, activate izanagi, teleport them to my dimension,
Run like hell
Repeat until you have a jyuubi'

The only real purpose of the akatsuki was to remove the bijuuu from its host in the sealing ceremony, with all the years that they've been planning this, tobi could have easily captured majority of not all of the jinchuuriki, especially during the times they bwere just implanted into the host so they had little control over the beast's powers'

But yea no one would read that

He would've been putting himself at a lot of risk. He didn't know where all the Bijuu were and finding out would've risked his identity being discovered. Finding out also requires resources that he likely can't accumulate on his own. Finding bijuu's, gathering resources, fighting the jinchuuriki even with overpowered jutsu, is quite a risk. He also risks a lot by crossing into villages that might ask questions. And if Sasuke can get past the Izanagi, you can bet some of the more powerful kage's/jinchuuriki's could've figured it out. Would you really attack A and B together, by yourself, just because you have izanagi and kamui? At some point you'll get hit. If Minato can hit you, you can bet A and B together can hit you. And for them, all it takes is one hit.

In fact, I'm willing to bet Tobi had the same thoughts as you back when he attacked the Leaf Village the first time. All it took was one Rasengan from Minato and he learned, "Crap! I'm not as powerful as I thought!" lol

The same could be said for Orochimaru. Why go after Sasuke? Why not just possess a weaker Uchiha before they were slaughtered? Why not lead Sasuke to Itachi and wait for him to be weak from fighting Itachi before trying to possess him? It's all about risk.

His body was already very delicate. No reason to risk it when you're limited to using one jutsu (likely the result of him losing half his body, he might not have the chakra flow of a normal shinobi).

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by WONDERMIKE

I am mainly interested in this "after death waiting room". Also, how exactly does Edo Tensei work? The revived Madara is way younger than the Madara from the flashback.

Kabuto mentioned that he reanimated Madara to be "in his prime."

Somehow Madara must have survived the battle with the first Hokage and lived to old age, long enough to meet Obito after he was crushed by that boulder. Afterwards he probably died of old age but not before passing on some knowledge to Obito in order for him to fulfill the Infinite Tsukiyomi plan and revive him with Rinne Tensei no jutsu.

Tsunade is 50 when she was introduced to the manga and would have been about 35 when Obito was injured on the battlefield. The 1st Hokage is her Grandfather so Madara must have been around 90 years old when he encountered Obito. Kabuto uses the DNA of the person he is summoning in order to bind their soul to his host and create his Edo Tensei zombies. He did mention to Obito that since he has their DNA he can make perfect replicas of them. Any injuries they had in life like say an missing eye or arm or bad leg would be present and in perfect condition since injuries are not a genetic trait. I'm assuming that the caster of Edo Tensei can make his zombies any age he wants so Madara could have died a very old man and been reanimated as his young self with all of the abilities that are apart of his genetic makeup including the powers of the 1st Hokage that he somehow absorbed during their battle.

[Dengar]

First of all, if "he has no reason to lie", does he have a reason to tell the truth? Spilling all your guts to a character "just because they are about to die" isn't really received well among those who've read the Overlord's List.


Second, it's actually possible for Obito to be the one who gave the Rinnegan to Nagato. I mean, obviously Madara KNEW Nagato and had all these plans for him. But maybe the plan was to die first, and then have Obito give the Rinnegan to Nagato. This is also assuming that they are, in fact, Madara's eyes. I'm not saying the following is true, but it could be that Obito/Madara messed a bit with Nagato's genes to make him awaken to the Rinnegan naturally. It seems to be a thing that happens when Senju and Uchiha blood are combined. Nagato, being of the Uzumaki clan, already had Senju blood, so maybe they just introduced Uchiha DNA to his system? I dunno it's mere speculation, but it seems to work.

This is, of course, ignoring the possibility that Obito was literally "being Madara" and speaking as though he were him. He may "not have any reason to do that", but did he have a reason NOT to do that?

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by solidguy

Um so Uchiha get their own after life chillax zone? Like some kind of purgatory?

I think that Obito actually died and Madara used some kind of jutsu to reanimate his corpse. He had his body stapled together and Obito still has the scarring from his injuries. Those injuries he sustained were fatal which is why he was left for dead. No ordinary medical ninja could save him. Madara probably used a forbidden jutsu to reanimate Obito in to a quasi-zombie state. His whole Space-Time Ninjutsu is probably a key element to why he isn't "dead" but like Madara he is no longer "alive" either. His mind is being sustained within his body unnaturally (i.e. he's undead).

That is why he commented on Itachi not knowing all the secrets about his body when Itachi's Amaterasu embedded in Sasuke was activated to destroy Tobi. Remember also that his arm fell off during the battle with Minato. In Naruto you have people constantly being brought back from the dead by supernatural means. Madara was believed to have died in his battle with Hashirama. Some how he survived and lived to old age and some how he took a ninja child and enabled him to live in to adulthood. I'm guessing this jutsu involves the 1st Hokage's cells and some forebidden technique that defies the laws of nature allowing the dead to retain their bodies and consciousness under certain conditions.

Originally Posted by Dengar

This is, of course, ignoring the possibility that Obito was literally "being Madara" and speaking as though he were him. He may "not have any reason to do that", but did he have a reason NOT to do that?

I think it's been pretty much established that Obito impersonated Madara in order to
use his reputation to bait the Ninja villages in to organizing a war against him. Obito was some goofy Konoha genin who was believed to have died on the battlefield as a kid. Madara was the former leader of the Uchiha who was legendary during his time and challenged the 1st Hokage for his title as leader of Konoha. Obito concealed his face to hide the fact that he was not Madara. Madara's face is known to all as he was famous and his likeness was chiseled in to a statue at the Valley of the End.

Infinite Tsukiyomi seems to be Madara's plan so Obito was only crediting the true mastermind by taking on his identity. Once he was revived Madara probably would have taken charge from there.

[MysticNinjaJay]

I just had a wild thought....

Spoiler:

What if Obito can SEE through Kakashi's eye?!

It is his eye after all.

That would explain how he knows about Rin's death. He didn't hear about it from a second hand source and he wasn't there but he SAW it. How does Obito know about Kakashi visiting his grave site? He's not in Konoha to witness it. I doubt he has Akatsuki spies watching his every move but if he can see through his eye he could spy on anything Kakashi witnesses. Now Kakashi only takes out his eye for battle so I don't know how Kishimoto would explain that one but it's not too farfetched that a ninja who has mastered Space-Time jutsu could possibly gain function of his lost eye implanted in someone elses body. Ninja have done even freakier things.

If this theory turns out to be true it could even explain how Obito gained knowledge of the secret location where Naruto was being born. Perhaps Kakashi was one of the only people entrusted with the location by Minato and Obito used this knowledge to his advantage.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Essenar

I'll just break this down for everyone:
1) Obito doesn't respond to Obito as his name. Meaning: He has abandoned that identity and no longer associates himself as Obito. So him not referring to himself as Obito in the past is NOT a plot hole. His exact words, "You can call me by that name if you want. To me it means nothing."
2) It does make sense. Because from the point his interactions ended with Madara, he no longer calls himself Obito. So all the sentences written in the past make perfect sense.

Obito doesn't think of himself as Madara. If he was deluded or under some jutsu influence that made him believe he was someone else or at least a part of someone else then there could be some sense into this but it doesn't look like it.
The fact that Obito no longer care about his former self -and the world in general for that matter- has no bearing on that. What is the point to say to Zetsu that Rine Tensei should have been used for him when they both know he is not Madara? To say to Kabuto he took Hashirama's celsl during their battle when, again, they both know he is not Madara? To say the same to a dying Konan? To shout at Kushina's dying face that she has no idea how long he has waited for this?
Remember when the Kyubi saw him and said "You...!" that's how it must be done : when you read this as face value it's the Kyubi recognizing Madara, in insight it could be the Kyubi recognizing Obito as Minato's student whom he had probably seen through Kushina's eyes. But even this one is inconsistant because with Kyubi and Naruto being instant best buddies why didn't the Kyubi said anything when they were all wondering his identity? Did he somehow forget the guy who set him on Konoha?

Those are inconsistencies made only for the benefit of the readers to keep us off balance but in insight they just make no sense whatsoever. Remember when Deva Path gave orders to the others Path just before his assault on Konoha? Same thing : the readers weren't yet told that those were just all puppets under a single mind and the author tried to make us keep guessing even if in insight the scene is absurd.
The difference is that it's one panel whereas there are scores of examples like this over the last 481 chapters for Tobito.

If you woke up one day and decided that you would no longer be Hunter but instead, Ranger. You HATE Hunter because of some characteristic about him you didn't like, or maybe you believe after spending months turning into Ranger that it's your real name. Or maybe you don't believe in names at all and you just used Ranger as a nickname to hide your identity or give people something to call you. Would it make sense for your partners who you trust, to call you by two different names? Oh hey guys, we're in the secret private room so call me OBITO, even though I don't believe I'm Obito anymore and I don't care about that name! Hehehehehehehehehehehe we're so secret!

The situation you describe is completely inaccurate.
You're focusing on the "fact" that people who knew still called him Madara when by and large it's not even true (Zetsu called him Tobi and Madara calls him Obito which doesn't seem to bother him) but it's not the point at all anyway. It's not a matter of which name he answers to, it's a matter of which past(s) he thinks he has and unless Obito is insane (as in completely dissociativly psychotic) a large part of what he said is nonsensical.

[Casshern]

It sounds plausible but I would've expected this to be mentioned when Danzo took Shisui's eye, which would've made it impossible for Danzo to take his other eye.

[Teru987]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Second, it's actually possible for Obito to be the one who gave the Rinnegan to Nagato. I mean, obviously Madara KNEW Nagato and had all these plans for him. But maybe the plan was to die first, and then have Obito give the Rinnegan to Nagato. This is also assuming that they are, in fact, Madara's eyes. I'm not saying the following is true, but it could be that Obito/Madara messed a bit with Nagato's genes to make him awaken to the Rinnegan naturally. It seems to be a thing that happens when Senju and Uchiha blood are combined. Nagato, being of the Uzumaki clan, already had Senju blood, so maybe they just introduced Uchiha DNA to his system? I dunno it's mere speculation, but it seems to work.

But Obito was not born when Nagato was a child. He awoke the rinnegan when he was a child there is no way that obito could have been alive during the second war. We know this already that he was born a few years before the third war. The only one that could have gave him the rinnegan was madara but i still dont see how he could give him his eyes and still have eyes when he met obito.

[Hunter]

Tobi has at a hundred Sharingan on his wall, he might have inherited this from Madara.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Those are inconsistencies made only for the benefit of the readers to keep us off balance but in insight they just make no sense whatsoever.

I said something similar in a previous chapter thread. Kishimoto would have been better served to use dramatic irony to create tension for Tobi/Obito (as he tries to dupe the world) as well as creating drama for the characters trying to find out Tobi's identity (I'm reminded of the great mystery series Columbo, where the murderer is revealed in the opening act and the rest of the story is focused on how titular detective Columbo goes about finding the murderer all the while the murderer tries to throw the detective off their tracks). Sadly, such a story would have required smart writing and purposeful pacing (not to mention intelligent characters), all of which Kishimoto has problems with at times.

Whatever the case, by jumping through hoops in order to hide Tobi's identity (and then making the identity the first character everyone suspected he would be), Kishimoto really created a lackluster twist filled with glaring plot holes and missteps. As with much of Kishimoto's work, the intent is clear and even interesting, but the execution ultimately fails (or is kept at a level only a 12 year old could really appreciate).

Originally Posted by Teru987

But Obito was not born when Nagato was a child. He awoke the rinnegan when he was a child there is no way that obito could have been alive during the second war. We know this already that he was born a few years before the third war. The only one that could have gave him the rinnegan was madara but i still dont see how he could give him his eyes and still have eyes when he met obito.

The whole giving eyes thing could be less specific than originally thought. Specifically, much the same as Itachi or Haku could be said to have "given" the Sharingan to Sasuke (since they helped to awaken the power), it could be that Madara created a sequence of events that awoke Nagato's eyes. Consequently, Madara would have "given" the Rinnegan to Nagato.