2010-04-26, 20:44 | Link #9301 | ||
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2010-04-26, 20:59 | Link #9302 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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he he, I think that's the definitely what we have here, Renall. Albeit Ryukishi tries to give us the image of a fool crazy man with Kinzo, I always suspected that this was all a deceipt. Because Kinzo is not mad, he's a genius, that's different. Kinzo is a man that achieved the impossible, I just don't buy his madness. The study of the occult might seem foolish, but I think what Kinzo actually tried to study was the basic principle of "magic" with the clear knowledge that magic doesn't actually exist in this world, but it can be "created".
Tricks and magics, have always been at the center of this story. A magic that is actually a trick what else can be if not stage magic? No doubt that Kinzo is quite knowledgeable about that. Now think about what Maria says about Beatrice, she keeps saying that Beatrice shows her a lot of magic tricks. Like making appear a candy inside a teacup. But that's just one, Beatrice showed her a lot of magic tricks of that kind. And what's this if not stage magic? Of course a person like Kinzo cannot be satisfied with the kind of stage magic you see on TV. Kinzo is the man who'd rather use the stage magic tricks to make people truly believe in magic. Kinzo probably believe that a human trick that is indistinguishable from a real magic trick is magic. Some philosophers believe that a reality doesn't exist, rather everyone's experience is their own reality. So if everyone experiences magic wouldn't that be a real magic? Of course I'm not the kind of person that believes in such a thing but I think Kinzo did. We know that Kinzo had a lot of occult stuff in his study. But was that really serious stuff? Now remember the stakes, they weren't serious stuff, they were cheap instruments, garbage. The kind of thing you'd find in the study of a stage magician not a real occultist (provided that they actually exist). You know what I think the stakes actually are? trick knives, like these ones, except a little more elaborate. Why not? They aren't sharp, you can't physically pierce someone with them, not with a normal human strength. But that's all right if they aren't meant to actually pierce people, rather to give they illusion they did. The rest is special effect, fake scars, fake blood, the kind of thing you can see in a movie. Kinzo shouldn't have problem acquiring that kind of stuff, and he learned how to do it and Beatrice learned from him.
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2010-04-26, 21:01 | Link #9303 |
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Join Date: May 2009
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"Without love, it can't be seen."
If you aren't willing to let yourself be fooled, you'll never be able to enjoy the show. ...but what does that say about people who have love? Is love a compromise? Is love overlooking the trick you know is behind the magic? |
2010-04-26, 21:05 | Link #9304 | |
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2010-04-26, 21:14 | Link #9305 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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This is what magic is.
Maria knows that. That's why she accepts so easily that her mother died. A magic performer can cut a person in half in front of your eyes, but that's not scary, because then the person will get in one piece again. A magic performer can make people disappear, but that's not scary, because then the people reappear again. And Beatrice might "kill" people, but that's not scary, because Beatrice can "revive" them.
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2010-04-26, 21:15 | Link #9306 | |
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So, what Ryuukishi is saying with Umineko is that without love, you cannot compromise. But once we admit to the faults of magic, we can understand what the games are all about. Hopefully, at least. |
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2010-04-26, 21:19 | Link #9307 | |
Endless Witch-Doctor
Join Date: Mar 2010
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You raised a ton of interesting points about Kinzo's obsession with magic. Since Kinzo is dead, I wonder if his will was to have someone to put on one final magic show. I wouldn't put it past him, after all. |
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2010-04-26, 21:29 | Link #9308 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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You remember the scene in episode 3 with the tarot cards? Kinzo kept playing hands until he got the one that was best. The narration said other people would think he's disrespecting the cards by doing that, but actually he understands the cards more than anyone. Tarot cards are just a random number generator to him. And he plays them over and over until he gets the numbers he wants. EDIT: You guys remember when we were talking about how Ryukishi color codes everything in umineko, with red, blue, black, purple and gold? What if the "roulette" is color coded? You choose random colors and each time you get a different selection of people.
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-04-26 at 21:58. |
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2010-04-27, 00:39 | Link #9309 |
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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You know, this does fit in with what Kanon was talking about in EP6 with Kinzo being a prankster. I kept thinking the first twilight faking had to be some really serious, awful thing that scared even the siblings into submission.
Maybe it's Kinzo, scaring the siblings into submission... to prank Battler. 8) I was thinking before that Battler's sin was some kind of joke about, "Oh, wouldn't it be great to have some secret murder mystery in this spooky Western style mansion?" And also, I was figuring that the reason Lucifer seems so interested in Battler romantically is if his sin was Pride. "I bet I can solve any mystery anyone makes for me!" And so Kinzo decides to take him up on that? I think we downplayed the possibility since it didn't seem like the whole family was in on any joke... just a few... EDIT: Although just going over EP3 when the parents are scrambling around to find the servants. More than one keeps saying, "I wouldn't put it past Kinzo to pull a prank like this." referring to the magic circles and locked rooms. That's before they find the dead bodies though. |
2010-04-27, 00:41 | Link #9310 |
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I don't intend to speculate who's in on it, or why they're doing it. I have no idea. However, if the stakes are props, it might fit the "stake people to confirm they're really dead" idea, and it might be a way the "magician faction" is fighting back against the actual killer. From what I can see, the killer is probably a defector from that group (whatever you want to call them), and the group itself is largely innocent. Again though, I don't know who or how.
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2010-04-27, 01:19 | Link #9311 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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The "magician faction" basically has to be the servants/Nanjo. Not only are they the people most likely to have served as Kinzo's assistants, but only Shannon and Genji seem to know of the existence of Kinzo's will, which, under this theory, was most probably instructions to carry out the Ultimate Magic Trick which he could not.
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2010-04-27, 02:20 | Link #9312 | ||
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Not all of them have to be aware of the "magic tricks". A few of the members would be the people who go on stage and end up being part of the trick. Quote:
The only question I have for you is: What about the bomb?
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-04-27 at 02:43. |
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2010-04-27, 07:26 | Link #9313 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Which actually does not prevent the "stage magic" interpretation, because nothing stops Kinzo from actually doing both for further verisimilitude of his stage act, but makes it a little less elegant.
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2010-04-27, 07:35 | Link #9314 |
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His expertise could be simply that. If you're an expert in fairy folklore it doesn't mean you believe in fairies. And Witch Hunters seem willing to believe just about anything that makes the tragedy more bizarre, so they're never credible.
I don't think it explains the actions or motives of the entire game, but it might explain the methods of the group which appears to at least contain Genji, Kumasawa, Nanjo, and possibly Shannon/Kanon (though if anyone is a defector, one or both of them seem like the pick). If a family member is also in the group, he or she is hiding it well. EDIT: I mentioned some similarities between a magic act and a mystery novel (or other narrative) in a PM to Kaisos, but forgot to get a Sent copy for myself, so now I can't remember what I said. If you saw The Prestige, it's kinda like what Michael Caine's character says about the trick being a "narrative." The main similarity is that in a magic trick, you're expecting a trick; in other words, you anticipate the narrative yet are still "fooled" by it. A murder mystery is the same way; we all know a crime is going to take place in a mystery novel, so why are we always so surprised to see it happen? |
2010-04-27, 08:24 | Link #9315 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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I expect that the Ep4 variant of the post-rose scene is the 'normal' one, when everything goes as planned. Notice also that George marks the rose with a candy wrapper, and not something else. It's always the wrapper from the 'candy Maria ate on the plane', but it's Eva who bought the packet of candy and even uses the receipt later to seal the study, so there has to be an arbitrary number of identical candy wrappers. It's Hideyoshi who asks her if she did buy candy, and he's also inevitably the first one to exclaim "I wouldn't put it past Kinzo!" or something to that effect when a chance comes up. And candy purchase is also one thing that seems to happen in all episodes.
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2010-04-27, 10:14 | Link #9318 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Don't you guys think that goats are actually people wearing goat masks? This was actually hinted in EP2
As far as I remember goats only appear after someone has been "killed". Which means that those who supposedly are dead can take the role of "goats".
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2010-04-27, 10:26 | Link #9319 | |
Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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If this turns out to be true, I can say Umineko turned almost upside down on some points. And in essence "I let myself be fooled" The medium theory sounds exciting also. I'd definitely pick Shannon/Kanon for this role. They still need to disguise though. Last edited by Bluemail; 2010-04-27 at 10:37. |
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2010-04-27, 10:36 | Link #9320 | |
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