[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Ithekro]

Lambda's getting off on Shannon and Kanon being "furnature"?

Furnature aren't "humans"?

[Jan-Poo]

Even if they aren't humans they still count as people, or at least that's what other red texts seem to suggest.

[Ithekro]

This is Lambda's game now. Absolutes. Are Kanon and Shannon absolutely people? Or are they absolutely furnature?

[Jan-Poo]

No way to tell this... But mind that Dlanor also used red truths related to people and their positions. I don't think Dlanor would allow such a thing.

[Renall]

Perhaps someone who is shown in the dining room during the scenes was not actually known by the other people in the dining room to be present. For instance, Kanon and Shannon could have been actually hiding and spying on the conference. They were still in the dining room as indicated by the red, but their presence was different from what was shown.

Alternately, someone in the dining room was thought to be somebody they were not. The scene shown actually covers this up by making everyone appear to be who they normally are.

I have no idea why either case would happen, though, so it seems fishy.

[Jan-Poo]

Uhm just for a change I'd like to know what do you think about this possibility:

Beatrice's real name is Maria Ushiromiya

There isn't much to support this except two hints:

1) She signed the messages in the bottles as Maria Ushiromiya, maybe she wasn't faking to be someone else, she actually wrote her own name.
2) Kinzo didn't want Rosa to call her daughter that way, maybe because a Maria Ushiromiya already existed.

This of course would mean that Beatrice is blood related to Kinzo somewhow.

[Renall]

There's no way human-Beatrice, even if "Maria Ushiromiya" is her name, could've written the messages in bottles. At the time she died, half the people detailed in the message didn't even exist.

Unless you mean the human "Beatrice," Shannon or whoever, is actually a blood relative and her name is Maria Ushiromiya. I'd be dubious of that.

[LyricalAura]

Worst dying confession ever.

Kanon: My real name is... Maria...
Jessica: Eh?
*heart stops*

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Renall

There's no way human-Beatrice, even if "Maria Ushiromiya" is her name, could've written the messages in bottles. At the time she died, half the people detailed in the message didn't even exist.

Unless you mean the human "Beatrice," Shannon or whoever, is actually a blood relative and her name is Maria Ushiromiya. I'd be dubious of that.

I have some thoughts on the letters-in-the-bottles:

1. Maria had multiple personality disorder and the writing way in different personality could differ. So in fact it was still Maria's writing, just in a different personality.

2. The Real Beatrice (the Beatrice as Maria's master, having a distinct physical body from Maria), wrote down the last message in the letter and disguised herself as Maria for she did not want to expose her own identity.

Anyway, does anyone know in the end of EP2, was there any description of police's finding? We knew that the police found pieces of fresh after EP1 but what about in EP2. Did the letter-in-the-bottle for EP2 also have a similar Maria last message attaced like the EP1's one? What was the perspective of the letters-in-the-bottles? Pro-fantasy? I have forgotten.

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

"heart stops*

Kanon's, Jessica's or the reader's? (ALL of the above)

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Renall

There's no way human-Beatrice, even if "Maria Ushiromiya" is her name, could've written the messages in bottles. At the time she died, half the people detailed in the message didn't even exist.

Unless you mean the human "Beatrice," Shannon or whoever, is actually a blood relative and her name is Maria Ushiromiya. I'd be dubious of that.

Of course I wasn't thinking of the Beatrice that did in 1967.

There are a few way to make this possible.

Shannon or Kanon (!) could be named Maria. But this is not limited to them, everyone could be going by a fake name even Kumasawa, provided a newborn switch case on the same lines of what is postulated in the case of Battler happened. Of course those who are blatantly male can't have that name °°

Another option is a loophole that allow a X person to exist in rokkenjima (shkannon theory, furniture theory, or others)

Of course I'm aware that every attempt to find a loophole in the person limits leads to wacky theories...

[Ithekro]

"A boy named Sue"....

Actually Kanon being named Maria would be kind of funny...just for his voice actress' reaction.

Though somehow I can't see Kanon being nice with Maria and teaching her about witches....even if they have the same name. The Kanon mask to too heavy.

[Kitsu]

Actually Kanon being named Maria would be kind of funny...just for his voice actress' reaction.

But then we should write it Mariya just for the heck of it xDDDDDD

Though somehow I can't see Kanon being nice with Maria and teaching her about witches....even if they have the same name. The Kanon mask to too heavy.

Well I don|t know but in Ep 2 Kanon acted nive towards Maria and Maria herself seems to like him (she stated in Ep 1 that she would think that it was great to be like him)

[scwizard]

I'm thinking that in the third episode:
George shot Nanjo. As George was dying, Jessica short George. Finally Jessica moved Georges body to a different location.

Furthermore: When Doctor Nanjo diagnosed George as being dead, he was alive.

Although we could also presume that any of Hideyoshi, Rudolf and Kyrie were alive when Battler saw their "corpses" if we don't consider Virgilia to be trustworthy when she claimed that those three were found with demon stakes penetrating their bodies.

[ParasolPop]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

This is Lambda's game now. Absolutes. Are Kanon and Shannon absolutely people? Or are they absolutely furnature?

If Genji, Kanon, and Shannon were omitted from the people count because they're 'furniture', I think that'd be a pretty cheap move. Although people keep bringing it up, I'm not sure Ryu would do that.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by scwizard

I'm thinking that in the third episode:
George shot Nanjo. As George was dying, Jessica short George. Finally Jessica moved Georges body to a different location.

Jessica did not commit murder!

So you better have a good explanation for why she'd shoot him for a non-murderous reason...

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Renall

Jessica did not commit murder!

So you better have a good explanation for why she'd shoot him for a non-murderous reason...

Careful there. Jessica did not commit murder after she was blinded. She still could have participated in the first twilight.

Originally Posted by ParasolPop

If Genji, Kanon, and Shannon were omitted from the people count because they're 'furniture', I think that'd be a pretty cheap move. Although people keep bringing it up, I'm not sure Ryu would do that.

Let me kill that theory right now. Episode 3, first twilight:
The following six people are dead: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa.

The Japanese is unambiguous that the servants are "people". But the person limit specifies "17 humans", so let's also add:
No life forms other than humans participated in Episode 3.
A different human cannot claim Kanon's name, which implies that Kanon is a human.

The servants are humans, period, end of discussion.

[scwizard]

Originally Posted by Renall

Jessica did not commit murder!

So you better have a good explanation for why she'd shoot him for a non-murderous reason...

Whoops. I meant to write Nanjo shot George.

Here is what I meant to write:
George shot Nanjo. As Nanjo was dying, Nanjo short George. Finally Jessica moved George's body to a different location.

Furthermore: When Doctor Nanjo diagnosed George as being dead, he was alive.

It was really late at night and apparently I ended up writing something quite different than what I was thinking lol.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Careful there. Jessica did not commit murder after she was blinded. She still could have participated in the first twilight.

Ushiromiya Jessica has not committed murder is an independent red text. The parts about her being blinded are also in red, but the red about her not committing murder is still true.

If she killed, but didn't murder, she can still be considered even after being blinded, but I don't see any reason right now to implicate Jessica at all.

The Japanese is unambiguous that the servants are "people". But the person limit specifies "17 humans", so let's also add:
No life forms other than humans participated in Episode 3.
A different human cannot claim Kanon's name, which implies that Kanon is a human.

The servants are humans, period, end of discussion.

Yes. Please. Let's not bring this up again. Nothing in red has ever supported the notion that the servants are anything other than humans/people/whatever. Whatever they may say about themselves, they are human.

And we've all pretty much agreed it would be a lame trick. So not only doesn't anything support it, ryukishi would have to be a complete hack to actually use it. He wouldn't do something that lame.

[scwizard]

Other than Shannon, I never told anyone that I liked autumn.

I can not think of a more gratuitous hint that Shannon is behind everything.

Wasn't Lambdadelta saying at the beginning that she'd leave a biiiiiiiiiig hint for us?

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by scwizard

Other than Shannon, I never told anyone that I liked autumn.

I can not think of a more gratuitous hint that Shannon is behind everything.

Wasn't Lambdadelta saying at the beginning that she'd leave a biiiiiiiiiig hint for us?

On the contrary, it's a worthless statement. As a number of people have pointed out, the caller didn't need to know Natsuhi's favorite season at all. He simply needed to plant four different cards in her room, and then only give her the location of the one corresponding to the season she said on the phone. Even if the culprit didn't use a trick like that, Shannon could have innocently mentioned Natsuhi's favorite season to any number of other people. It wasn't particularly secret information or anything.

Not that I disagree with you that Shannon is incredibly suspicious, but I don't think we can use this scene as a silver bullet.