Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll

[Malkuth]

@Jun-Poo:

On galactic movement, you can perceive it and cross-reference it by the relative positions of the stars across your own life-time and given patience historical records

As for our senses working against us and not using our brains, you realizes that those two (senses/brain) are tightly correlated. Your brain can only process what you perceive, so if you mistrust your perception you do not have information to process, hence your logical deduction will slowly become a matter of faith than reason.

The problem with Umineko's presentation is that in order to appreciate it, you have to do exactly that, accept that what you (the viewer, not even meta-Battler) see might not be true. If they played on the insanity theme correctly (Naked Lunch, Lost Highway, to name my favourite) I would have loved it, but instead it looks like a directionless b-flick without any idea or plan where it heading ... that probably applies to game too.

By the way, reading my post again, I think I was overly sarcastic, sorry for that, I hope you did not misunderstood

[June 1983]

You have no clue where it's heading, believe me. Speculating is largely useless, especially for you.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

@Jun-Poo:

On galactic movement, you can perceive it and cross-reference it by the relative positions of the stars across your own life-time and given patience historical records

As for our senses working against us and not using our brains, you realizes that those two (senses/brain) are tightly correlated. Your brain can only process what you perceive, so if you mistrust your perception you do not have information to process, hence your logical deduction will slowly become a matter of faith than reason.

The problem with Umineko's presentation is that in order to appreciate it, you have to do exactly that, accept that what you (the viewer, not even meta-Battler) see might not be true. If they played on the insanity theme correctly (Naked Lunch, Lost Highway, to name my favourite) I would have loved it, but instead it looks like a directionless b-flick without any idea or plan where it heading ... that probably applies to game too.

By the way, reading my post again, I think I was overly sarcastic, sorry for that, I hope you did not misunderstood

I guess Umineko's, for lack of a better description, too DEEP for you. That's the point, to not blindly trust what you see.

I must say though, I hope you stick with it for the fourth arc, because I felt similarly to you up to that point.

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

@chounokoe:

Well if my neighbor said all these stuff after one her demon-chicks turned into a dagger in front of me and took me to another dimension for a cup of tea and some friendly discussion with my demised relatives, I guess it would be somewhat hard do deny her claims

That is a whole other cup of tea I would say, we don't know where exactly Battler is nor under which rules this world functions.
It might very well be that Beatrice has powers to summon "chicks who can turn into stakes" inside this special room, but how can we be sure she has this power in reality?
Of course it is possible, but it is not the challenge to accept that but to deny that...where is the fun in accepting that 'a witch did it'?

In the end she is not summoning his dead relatives or making him experience them being killed by magical beings, she is showing him that.
Immeadiatly believing that would be like saying that what you just saw on TV has to be true, because you saw it.
They are observers of a tragedy, so far Battler had no chance to investigate or prove for himself if there was prove or evidence for either side, he was watching.

What you said would make my following statement true: "An astronaut can float in the air while he is in space, therefore he can float in the air on earth too!"
Is this statement true? Very unlikely.
If you were shown a video showing an astronaut floating in the air?
Would that make you believe it? Very unlikely.
It is highly possible that before you weren't there, when the astronaut was floating in the air, at a place where you can be sure that there is normal gravity, and where you are able to touch him and make sure he is a human, you wouldn't believe.
And so far Beatrice has not appeared in front of a reasonable real-world Battler and performed magic that could be perceived as real magic.
Even 'being killed by people with goat heads' doesn't prove that MAGIC exists if you are totally drunk, it could be people with masks and I don't know if you can still make the differentiation when you are being ripped apart.

As for the Higurashi analogy of the meta-world, remember that especially during the first season we saw the iterations through the PoV of various characters, not only Rika's and that was the brilliance in storytelling, leading to Rika's PoV and the final resolution. The events themselves as the series progressed became insignificant because the focus stayed on the characters. In Umineko exactly the opposite happens, the focus is constantly on the events instead of the characters, making it absurd to bother with (save for the stakes and siestas).

What makes you sure we are not seeing things through a certain PoV, too?
We are 'being shown' not more or less is know right now.
We did not know that certain Higurashi arcs were PoV-ridden to a point that they were highly subjective.
The coronation ceremony could as well be a highly symbolic scene of how Eva perceived the joy of finding the gold and Eva Beatrice's playful way of killing could be her inner child imagining what she could do to them.
We are just told, we do not know what narrator tells us which parts, it could be a highly unreliable narrator, or even a subjective narrator (Beatrice) re-telling us (Battler) the thoughts of an unreliable character (any person on the island).

And yes, as you said, Higurashi was mainly a drama about the struggle against 'absolute' destiny.

Spoiler for Higurashi:

But did we know that for sure until we arrived at Minagoroshi?
We did not even start thinking that before Himatsubushi.
Before that Rika was just the strange girl who 'knew too much', we did neither know that she was the main character nor did we know what Higurashi was about, we were too busy trying to figure out what happened.
Higurashi took only 15 episodes to reach it's turning point, also know as the split between Question and Answer Arcs.

In Umineko there has not yet been such a point, we are still tapping in the dark for any characters motive.

[MarthX]

Umineko is still very early in the story, 3rd arc. By Tatarigoroshi in Higurashi you knew very little. Expecting to know or for anyone else to know the rules of the game at this point is just silly. Higurashi's rules weren't made clear until the 7th arc, Minagoroshi. Higurashi's real story didn't start until episode 32 (6 of season two).

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by MarthX

Umineko is still very early in the story, 3rd arc. By Tatarigoroshi in Higurashi you knew very little. Expecting to know or for anyone else to know the rules of the game at this point is just silly. Higurashi's rules weren't made clear until the 7th arc, Minagoroshi. Higurashi's real story didn't start until episode 32 (6 of season two).

Yet most people think the first season of Higurashi was the better season.

I don't think you need to know the rules to enjoy the story. At this point making various theories and seeing if they all fit together is how it is played. Who's to say that's not how it will be played until the very end?

[Malkuth]

@work³
Well I guess Lynch and Burroughs are too SHALLOW for you

@chounokoe
First of all astronauts float in what is practically vacuum, not air or any other volatile mixture. Bringing me to the point of reminding everyone that we are talking about a fictional work! Presentation is everything, in Higurashi from the second arc it was strongly hinted both the biased PoV and the focus was on characterization from the start ... both completely absent for various reasons not only I have mentioned or observed from Umineko.

And since everyone loves the zombie cat paradox, remember that what is true or false can not be safely deducted until the observer "contaminates" the experiment. In other words, until the meta-characters directly intervene in an iterations events anything is possible since as most of you believe what is shown is just an interpretation

And yes I'll stick for the fourth arc and endure Battler ramblings in hopes of filling my shallowness with bunny-girls, giant cakes, false witches and maids, indeed deep stuff work³

@Ssol
I make no theories, I just state that the presentation, taken seriously sucks, exactly because there is nothing to base a theory on except rule-less magic, which would be even more lame. Then again I guess most people would be satisfied if after one or two years the second season gives them a deus ex machina solution. Well, as I said before and you implied also Higurashi was appreciated because it offered a lot more than that, especially during the first season.

[June 1983]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

And since everyone loves the zombie cat paradox, remember that what is true or false can not be safely deducted until the observer "contaminates" the experiment. In other words, until the meta-characters directly intervene in an iterations events anything is possible since as most of you believe what is shown is just an interpretation

........ that's the whole point. Until the box is opened, both theories are technically "true". I can't understand how to make this any more simple for you.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

@work³
Well I guess Lynch and Burroughs are too SHALLOW for you

@chounokoe
First of all astronauts float in what is practically vacuum, not air or any other volatile mixture. Bringing me to the point of reminding everyone that we are talking about a fictional work! Presentation is everything, in Higurashi from the second arc it was strongly hinted both the biased PoV and the focus was on characterization from the start ... both completely absent for various reasons not only I have mentioned or observed from Umineko.

And since everyone loves the zombie cat paradox, remember that what is true or false can not be safely deducted until the observer "contaminates" the experiment. In other words, until the meta-characters directly intervene in an iterations events anything is possible since as most of you believe what is shown is just an interpretation

And yes I'll stick for the fourth arc and endure Battler ramblings in hopes of filling my shallowness with bunny-girls, giant cakes, false witches and maids, indeed deep stuff work³

@Ssol
I make no theories, I just state that the presentation, taken seriously sucks, exactly because there is nothing to base a theory on except rule-less magic, which would be even more lame. Then again I guess most people would be satisfied if after one or two years the second season gives them a deus ex machina solution. Well, as I said before and you implied also Higurashi was appreciated because it offered a lot more than that, especially during the first season.

I don't know if I should be happy or sad that you're the first person to finally call me Work to the power of 3.

You're seriously assuming a lot of things before the third arc is even over. I guess June 1983 shares my frustration.

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

@chounokoe
First of all astronauts float in what is practically vacuum, not air or any other volatile mixture. Bringing me to the point of reminding everyone that we are talking about a fictional work! Presentation is everything, in Higurashi from the second arc it was strongly hinted both the biased PoV and the focus was on characterization from the start ... both completely absent for various reasons not only I have mentioned or observed from Umineko.

Well as much as I'm enjoying this (in a strange way), which I assume you do as well, let's try to suspend this discussion until we reached a later point in the series, where possibly discussion becomes a bit easier, because all sides can use their full resources...at least the resources of Umineko (excluding Chiru).
If you want to avoid the point, just say that you don't want to go deeper into that, instead of pointing out rather minimal scientifical facts.
It does not change the fact that 'being able to float in space' does not equal 'being able to float in earth's atmosphere' in possibility.

It was hinted in Higurashi to have biased PoV yes, but you have the same events in Umineko, do you not? You experience the servants meeting a supernatural replica of Kanon, yet they feel unable to tell that to the others and additionaly the facts you gathered within that game point against what you were shown...pretty much biased PoV for my taste.
And you can feel a weight on characterization in Higurashi, yes. Yet you did not know the series' aim nor could you know it until you were given the right instruments.

And since everyone loves the zombie cat paradox, remember that what is true or false can not be safely deducted until the observer "contaminates" the experiment. In other words, until the meta-characters directly intervene in an iterations events anything is possible since as most of you believe what is shown is just an interpretation

That is the problem we are facing and the problem that every detective faces when he interrogates a suspect.
A suspect will almost never tell you what happened objectively, s/he would have to be free of any emotional bounds towards anything connecting to the case and the actual situation as well as any fate that might befall him/her.
The wife who shot her husband in cold blood to get to his money won't tell this to the police, she will tell them he rushed at her in rage and beat her until she saw no other escape than to shoot him, even though she loved him so much.
The girl creating an alibi for her boyfriend won't tell the detective that she slept in her room when he killed his mother, she will tell them they went to a hidden spot in the woods, where conviniently nobody except them was present.

It is not for the suspect or witness to decide on truth or fiction, that is the detective's burden...and yes, because you will almost surely add that, so far Battler did not prove to be a good detective, therefore we have to do additional work.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

@Ssol
I make no theories, I just state that the presentation, taken seriously sucks, exactly because there is nothing to base a theory on except rule-less magic, which would be even more lame. Then again I guess most people would be satisfied if after one or two years the second season gives them a deus ex machina solution. Well, as I said before and you implied also Higurashi was appreciated because it offered a lot more than that, especially during the first season.

That comment wasn't directed at you but I think your position is valid if it makes you feel better.

Back on topic regarding episode 15, I wonder why they made it seem like Rosa knew about the gold all along and could have just been following Eva to see if she finds it.
In the VN Rosa works out the epitaph with everyone else but that scene is omitted from the anime.
Also, Rosa was supposed to encounter Eva in the stairway outside the room that contained the gold after Eva leaves the room. In the anime she walks into the room right after Eva.
If I hadn't read the VN I would just assume Rosa was just following Eva and didn't even work on the epitaph herself. She didn't answer yes when Eva asked if she solved the epitaph or not.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Ssol

That comment wasn't directed at you but I think your position is valid if it makes you feel better.

Back on topic regarding episode 15, I wonder why they made it seem like Rosa knew about the gold all along and could have just been following Eva to see if she finds it.
In the VN Rosa works out the epitaph with everyone else but that scene is omitted from the anime.
Also, Rosa was supposed to encounter Eva in the stairway outside the room that contained the gold after Eva leaves the room. In the anime she walks into the room right after Eva.
If I hadn't read the VN I would just assume Rosa was just following Eva and didn't even work on the epitaph herself. She didn't answer yes when Eva asked if she solved the epitaph or not.

The simplest reason I can think of is because of pacing issues.

Of course, that leaves the question why they didn't use that time to put in the clapping scene.

[SilverSyko]

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

Of course, that leaves the question why they didn't use that time to put in the clapping scene.

What the heck is this clapping scene I keep hearing about?

Seems a lot of people are dissapointed that the anime didn't have it.

[Kitsu]

Beato and battelr were clapping togehter on Eva-Beato's ceremony and seemd to have a lot of fun (who claps the loudest and such stuff)

----Ithink you guys are getting annoying with whining about that scene..I mean it sucks that id didn't get in but it wasn't as important as some other scenes or as touching. (Adult's trying to figure out the epitaph, Krauss and NAtsuhi talk before the start of the family conference in EPisode2 or for touching KanonxJessi ghost scene in Episode 2)

Edit: I'm aware that the BeaBat Fans will neg-rep me but I think this must be said!

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

What the heck is this clapping scene I keep hearing about?

Seems a lot of people are dissapointed that the anime didn't have it.

Hold on, I'll edit this post when I get the video.

At about 4:34.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

The simplest reason I can think of is because of pacing issues.

I really hope they didn't choose to remove the epitaph discussion due to pacing issues. I would like to believe that it just isn't very relevant at this point.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

@Jun-Poo:

On galactic movement, you can perceive it and cross-reference it by the relative positions of the stars across your own life-time and given patience historical records

As for our senses working against us and not using our brains, you realizes that those two (senses/brain) are tightly correlated. Your brain can only process what you perceive, so if you mistrust your perception you do not have information to process, hence your logical deduction will slowly become a matter of faith than reason.

The problem with Umineko's presentation is that in order to appreciate it, you have to do exactly that, accept that what you (the viewer, not even meta-Battler) see might not be true. If they played on the insanity theme correctly (Naked Lunch, Lost Highway, to name my favourite) I would have loved it, but instead it looks like a directionless b-flick without any idea or plan where it heading ... that probably applies to game too.

By the way, reading my post again, I think I was overly sarcastic, sorry for that, I hope you did not misunderstood

I see you named "Naked lunch" and David lynch, let's see "Mulholland drive" for example?
But those movies do not even try to be grounded on logic explanations. They are just showing a lot of dreamlike situations without any coherence.

But Ryukishi isn't David Lynch, he will never make a story like that. However for Umineko it looks like he tried to give us that feeling. It's like a wolf in sheep's clothing if know what I mean.

I guess that from a mystery story you expect that it is clear that it is a mystery story. Well that exactly what Ryukishi wanted to avoid with Umineko. He wanted to make it so people were left confused. "Is it a mystery novel where reasoning is possible or is it a fantasy story (like the naked lunch) where nothing really makes sense?"

That is the challenge behind Umineko. Maybe you don't like it, but you should at least recognize that it isn't a flaw or something because this is exactly what Ryukishi intended to do with this story.


To go back to the analogy we were discussing. It is not like you completely distrust your senses but you can't completely rely on them either. You seem to think that in umineko you need to completely disregard the magic scenes, but this is not what I think. I think they do have a meaning.

Think of it as a riddle, riddles speak in metaphors. They use a word instead of an another, you need to grasp the analogy to solve it.

If you look at the magic battle between Virgilia and Beatrice what do you say? Either true or completely fake? I have another interpretation: it was a chess match.

Beatrice (whoever she is) played against Virgilia (Kumasawa) a chess match.

[Ithekro]

One wonders about the differences. Since this is a mystery story, facts are important. The questions start to mount up when there are differences between the source and the anime, since both need to be able to point to a solution for the mystery at some point. Thus the clues need to be the same. Thus comes the idea that perhaps some of the more useless scenes are not being used because they are not clues. Or they where inserted into the source material to confuse the reader into making up additional theories (since that seems to be the major theme in the Game threads).

It is interesting to note that while Umineko and Higurashi seem to be the same sort of story at first, by this arc the style of the story becomes completely different. Higurashi, for the majority of the first season was classed as that show with "Those Killer Lolis"*, basically a horror show. The second season changes it to the solve the problem show as it shifts POV to Rika. While K1 did write a letter in the first arc asking someone to find out what happened, it really isn't touched on again for a long time.

Umineko at first seems like it is also a horror show with all the mass murders in the first and second arcs...but the the letter and challenge to Beatrice at the end of the first arc....Find out what really happened...challenge the witch. And Battler does this, poorly, during the second and now third arcs. The basic problem is, Battler doesn't know the rules, nor does he seem very good at this game. He's getting better, though it isn't clear if he is focusing on the correct problem. He keeps bouncing between "Magic and witches don't exist" to "The murders were done by human hands". Are either of these the correct responce to the letter Maria supposedly sent in a bottle at the end of te first arc? "Find out what really happened".




*= Yes I am aware that "Those Killer Lolis" is an inaccurate description of the show or the characters...but that is the reputation it got early on, and the nickname stuck.

[SilverSyko]

Spoiler for Who I'm replying to:

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

At about 4:34.

Ah I see now. Thank you.

I can understand why it was removed, it didn't really seem to contribute to the progression of the story, though I guess it did show how much respect there is between Beato and Battler despite being enemies.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

Ah I see now. Thank you.

I can understand why it was removed, it didn't really seem to contribute to the progression of the story, though I guess it did show how much respect there is between Beato and Battler despite being enemies.

Well, while it didn't actually contribute to the plot, you can see why the omission made Battler's remark to Beato a bit of a non-sequitur.