[Manga] Naruto Chapter 642 Discussion Thread

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by King Golden

Naruto's never been shown to use Kurama to power Sage Mode, he wasn't able to fuse with the Toad Elders because of Kurama.. and with these recent attacks on Obito, it seems that Sage Chakra is basically tailed beast kryptonite. So shouldn't the Kyuubi Mode clash with Sage Mode?

That was when Kurama and Naruto was still at odds. I bet if the toad elders wanted to fuse, I think Kurama would allow it this time.

Or at least that was the impression I got from the failed fuse attempt. That Kurama didn't allow it rather than the two chakra's can't co-exist.

[Lunarskylar]

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

really nice to see tobirama shining these few chapters. he has been my most used hokage since naruto accel series and currently my most used character period on storm 3. cant wait to use his upgraded powers in later games...
badass warp rasengan indeed. surely naruto develops this skill before its all over. (are we at any point going to get some lineage/family tree narrative?? the three of them together are looking like quite the family. but thats just my wishful thinking)

@itachi-san314...you mentioned last post that you wonder what makes kurama so special. i hope this is a plot point that kishi actually develops....if the translation i read is correct, i believe minato actually got the "good" half of kurama. i mean for him to say "he managed to convince the 'other' me" suggests to me that this new kurama might be nicer. minato probably didnt even have to fight in the death belly in order to use his chakra seeing as how he showed up all cloaked out...
and while, its looking more like naruto is about to get the complete power of the nine tails, i still think its possible for the "fusion earring" to go to sasuke

and yeah i like what kishi is doing with the story, but hes gon have to tighten up lol...i mean naruto went sage agaisnt edo madara and the latter made quick work of the fuutonrasengan. juubito is sitting pretty with a rinnegan himself so sage chakra shouldnt be THAT effective. we'll see.

for now, shine on naruto...

because obito hasn't used several of the paths of pain, i'm convinced that either a) he just doesn't know how to use the techniques like shinra tensei, or the absorption path
b) you actually need both eyes to use the full eyes to use the whole techs

just because he has the eyes doesn't mean he can use the techniques, madara must have had the rinnegan long enough to learn how to use the jutsus because he learned to summon the gedo mazou and eventually transfer the eyes to nagato. he had years to do so thanks to his prolonged life support from the gedo,

obito on the other hand just popped in the rinnegan... maybe a couple days ago in naruto time? maybe a week at max?

[HasuMasu]

I hope this marks the return of Kirin.

[Monster0]

Kabuto breaks free from izanami,izanagi whichever.Reinstates his control over Madara and beats Obitos ass absorbing the 10 tails into Madaras body.Orochimaru then shows up and takes over Kabutos body containing his dna.Orochimaru sage Kabuto then resurrects himself through Madaras edo tensi body becoming the most complete thing ever completed.

[Bakaizer]

Originally Posted by Monster0

Kabuto breaks free from izanami,izanagi whichever.Reinstates his control over Madara and beats Obitos ass absorbing the 10 tails into Madaras body.Orochimaru then shows up and takes over Kabutos body containing his dna.Orochimaru sage Kabuto then resurrects himself through Madaras edo tensi body becoming the most complete thing ever completed.

well that would be INSANE, but how do you break the izanami/izanagi ? unless you have one of obito's abilities which turn all jutsus into nothing, it would work

also naruto had managed to combine sage and kyuubi mode once, but wasn't efficient. i think he can combine both of them now with kurama on the defensive while sage on the offensive

[bigdeal000]

Originally Posted by Monster0

Kabuto breaks free from izanami,izanagi whichever.Reinstates his control over Madara and beats Obitos ass absorbing the 10 tails into Madaras body.Orochimaru then shows up and takes over Kabutos body containing his dna.Orochimaru sage Kabuto then resurrects himself through Madaras edo tensi body becoming the most complete thing ever completed.

Breaking free of izanami=repenting. aka becoming a good guy, someone that follows narutism, etc. so Kabuto won't be a villain anymore. He will most likely take control of Madara (if he can do it) and try to stop Obito, but I don't think he'll absorb him. Anyway, Orochimaru has lost some heat as a bad guy, I wonder if he can really pull a final boss now...I mean, come on, I don't like to say this, but he's just Sasuke's bitch...

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

no. kabutomaru explained that the uchiha body was necessary for orochimaru to achieve snake sennin mode

He needed a "strong" body in general, as the "weak" body he possessed at the time was the main hindrance keeping him from fully utilizing the sage chakra. His original reason for wanting the sharingan was because it would have allowed him to learn jutsu more quickly, considering what his goal was back then. I'm pretty sure Sasuke's body would be strong enough to handle the sage training as well, though Oro's original reason for wanting Itachi, then Sasuke was for their eye's ability to learn jutsu, not for their body's ability to utilize sage chakra.

...Speaking of Oro and sage mode, this reminds me of a different discussion I had a while ago on topic, where the member adamantly refused to believe that Orochimaru had enough prowess to train and become a sage, despite the manga stating his body at the time was the only hindrance, and not to mention he was still even able to use senjitsu chakra to a degree :/ Interestingly enough though, there were some theories of Sasuke possibly gaining sage mode or rinnegan in that thread as well.

[Tchadnis]

Originally Posted by bigdeal000

Breaking free of izanami=repenting. aka becoming a good guy, someone that follows narutism, etc. so Kabuto won't be a villain anymore. He will most likely take control of Madara (if he can do it) and try to stop Obito, but I don't think he'll absorb him. Anyway, Orochimaru has lost some heat as a bad guy, I wonder if he can really pull a final boss now...I mean, come on, I don't like to say this, but he's just Sasuke's bitch...

and on top of it we talking about Madara , who freed himself from edo tensei control when kabuto was pwned my Itachi , so nobody can control Madara atm , all you can "try" to do is to beat the crap out of his unbeatable edo body.. personally speaking im kinda tired of orochimaru i dont mind him being just a passer by

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

@itachi-san314...you mentioned last post that you wonder what makes kurama so special. i hope this is a plot point that kishi actually develops....if the translation i read is correct, i believe minato actually got the "good" half of kurama. i mean for him to say "he managed to convince the 'other' me" suggests to me that this new kurama might be nicer. minato probably didnt even have to fight in the death belly in order to use his chakra seeing as how he showed up all cloaked out...

There were several theories about Sasuke somehow gaining the other half of the Kyuubi. I think it would be a fun idea if you're right that the other half is "good natured", and Sasuke somehow gets stuck with it. So, instead of being tormented and tempted into evil as naruto was, Sasuke's half is a benevolent bijuu who acts silly and tries to cheer Sasuke up instead and get him to be good and perform good deeds; which would torment him as well :P Then, inevitably when Naruto gives some righteous speech, and Sauske gives some kind of hateful speech as they're facing eachother, both halves of the kyuubi inside them can have a thought bubble stating "Hmm, I like this kid!", referring to the other kid lol.

[Ulquiorra]

Viz had an interesting translation of the Madara-Hashirama conversation from 641. Madara tells Hashirama he is taking another chunk of him. Now that we know that senjutsu is the only known counter to Obito, it appears Madara is somehow going to absorb sage mode from Hashirama. Perhaps by absorbing him completely. Then he could subdue Obito and become final boss after taking over the juubi.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Midnight Commander

He needed a "strong" body in general, as the "weak" body he possessed at the time was the main hindrance keeping him from fully utilizing the sage chakra. His original reason for wanting the sharingan was because it would have allowed him to learn jutsu more quickly, considering what his goal was back then. I'm pretty sure Sasuke's body would be strong enough to handle the sage training as well, though Oro's original reason for wanting Itachi, then Sasuke was for their eye's ability to learn jutsu, not for their body's ability to utilize sage chakra.

i'm looking at the series as a whole and giving the most recent definition for orochimaru wanting sasuke's body. back when you are quoting, sage mode wasn't ever even mentioned in the story so of course it couldn't have been for that reason at that time. but if you're quoting the past then you must also believe that hiruzen was stronger than the senju bros and that the hokage would allow the kyuubi jinchuuriki to leave the village on highly risky missions for not much of a reason and so forth

also, it's not like the sharingan can copy everything. orochimaru passed normal abilities a long time ago. he's interested in techniques far surpassing what a sharingan can copy. just look at kabutomaru's body. it's full of kekkai genkais which aren't copyable with a sharingan

Originally Posted by Midnight Commander

think it would be a fun idea if you're right that the other half is "good natured", and Sasuke somehow gets stuck with it.

of course it could be good, but haven't we been told in the past that this half was even more evil? back in the naruto birth flashback i think. also, the giant black shadow isn't exactly foreshadowing of a good nature. but it would be fun and of course surprising if minato's half is friendly, so it's certainly a possibility based on the shock factor

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

i'm looking at the series as a whole and giving the most recent definition for orochimaru wanting sasuke's body. back when you are quoting, sage mode wasn't ever even mentioned in the story so of course it couldn't have been for that reason at that time. but if you're quoting the past then you must also believe that hiruzen was stronger than the senju bros and that the hokage would allow the kyuubi jinchuuriki to leave the village on highly risky missions for not much of a reason and so forth

I go along with definitions until they're explicitly changed; I don't remember Kabuto saying anything about specifically needing Sasuke's body for attaining sage mode. Its possible I missed something, but as far as I remember he simply stated that Oro didn't find a body that was capable of handling such chakra. If you're referring to when he stated "I want that young body of yours" soon after he was summoned by Sasuke, I'd say thats still a bit ambiguous since he said that during part I as well, when it was mainly his eyes he was really after at that time, and also transfering to young bodies allows him to live longer.

If anything has indeed changed, I'm sure its that sage mode is an additional reason for him wanting Sasuke's body, considering Orochimaru has had several associations with experimenting on the sharingan as well as other powers all throughout the series.

also, it's not like the sharingan can copy everything. orochimaru passed normal abilities a long time ago. he's interested in techniques far surpassing what a sharingan can copy. just look at kabutomaru's body. it's full of kekkai genkais which aren't copyable with a sharingan

I'm aware of that, however having a sharingan would still greatly increase the rate at which one can learn jutsu even though it only copies hand-sealed techniques; its still an valuable tool to have considering the goal in mind.

of course it could be good, but haven't we been told in the past that this half was even more evil? back in the naruto birth flashback i think. also, the giant black shadow isn't exactly foreshadowing of a good nature. but it would be fun and of course surprising if minato's half is friendly, so it's certainly a possibility based on the shock factor

Thats just a funny idea I had in mind while reading Artimus Prime's comment. Personally I'd prefer if Sasuke had nothing to do with the bijuu and instead developed techniques and such on his own(I had wanted this for Naruto as well, especially when he gained sage-mode). I'm not a big fan of the power sharing technique between host and demon.

[yamakumori]

from my understanding to use sage mode one had to balance their own chakra to blend the nature chakra they were asorbing with their own. The kyuubi chakra being only half of kurama was unbalanced so it interferred with sage mode. If naruto obtained both halves of this power it may lead to a balanced atmospere so naruto can enter a sage-kyuubi mode making a huge power-up. As for 1-6 beast bomb being deflected by just 1\2 of kurama's bb, even they were on concert with each other all the tailed beasts were not inconcert with themselves so their total power would be less efficient.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

Viz had an interesting translation of the Madara-Hashirama conversation from 641. Madara tells Hashirama he is taking another chunk of him. Now that we know that senjutsu is the only known counter to Obito, it appears Madara is somehow going to absorb sage mode from Hashirama. Perhaps by absorbing him completely. Then he could subdue Obito and become final boss after taking over the juubi.

I think there's still a good chance that in the end Obito will sacrifice himself for the alliance, possibly by reviving all the alliance members who died in these 2 days in the war. And he may have his final conversation with Kakashi in his secret dimension while the others are fighting. I can imagine Kishimoto setting it up in a way that the completely exhaused Obito disappears, and then the battle continues, and then at a later time a big surprise: Kakashi and Obito reappear together and Obito is on Kakashi's side now.

As for Madara, i think it's obvious that he is now stronger than he was ever, so he should be stronger than Hashirama, and we still don't know how he faked his death and took those cells of Hashirama (btw i think he fought Hashirama specifically to force him to enter sage mode because he needed sage mode cells from Hashirama (if he wanted just normal cells from Hashirama he could have taken those without a big fight), which is a hint that you are right and now he wants those cells again and that's why he immedately wants to fight Hashirama). On the other hand if he had a plan B in case Obito turns against him then he could not have Hashirama in his plans (unless he wanted to Edo Tensei Hashirama for that purpose, assuming he can use Edo Tensei, which is possible since he has the sharingan to copy it).

I'm sure the next at least dozen of chapters will be fun to read

[itachi-san314]

the explanation i want most is what happened to spiral zetsu and whether he's tobi's jokester personality or not. i think he is and i think he will have tobi's joking voice when he appears in the show in the old madara flashback

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

Viz had an interesting translation of the Madara-Hashirama conversation from 641. Madara tells Hashirama he is taking another chunk of him. Now that we know that senjutsu is the only known counter to Obito, it appears Madara is somehow going to absorb sage mode from Hashirama. Perhaps by absorbing him completely. Then he could subdue Obito and become final boss after taking over the juubi.

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

we may not think madara needs anymore from hashirama, but i argue that there is a possibility that is exactly what he is planning to do…if the stone tablet says that this 'god' divided himself, it makes sense to me that someone in pursuit of that power would ultimately try to reunite those halves. in fact that is precisely what madara attempted to do the first time he gained a portion of hashiramas strength. something is really specially about shodaime and i would guess there are more sources to his strength than just his dna. madara may have figured out a way to get a hold of that 'essence' and whatever he is planning to do requires time to activate…

just speculation though...he could just as well be waiting for the 5 kages to show as he wants an audience for this trump card of his...

didnt want to retype

[Bakaizer]

so basically once hashirama absorbs the sage mode, its the end of the world huh

unless hmmmmm

[Monster0]

I wonder if slug acid would prevent edo tensei regeneration.Worth a try Tsunade,hurry up.Wait a sec,Sakura c.mon they think your useless again.

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by nikohowell

so basically once hashirama absorbs the sage mode, its the of the world huh

unless hmmmmm

que??
I know discussion on this issue has mostly centered around hashirama's senjutsu abilities but regarding madara moving to rob shodaime of more power, here is what i really think:

while we have seen actual pics of the original sons of the sage, for all intents and purposes, hash and madara are their incarnations. a few chapters back madara said to hashirama, "your time is up", according to the translation i read. considering the above, i took that to mean 'say lil bro, your chance to fix this world has passed. im gonna take that power/mantle dad gave you and show you how it is suppose to be done'.

so whether its sage chakra, or something else, we know shodaime has divine abilities and madara would need to add those to his own in order to have the true power of the sage of 6...obito with his transplanted eye and zetsu cells is roughly just an incomplete version.

just speculation though...

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

so whether its sage chakra, or something else, we know shodaime has divine abilities and madara would need to add those to his own in order to have the true power of the sage of 6...obito with his transplanted eye and zetsu cells is roughly just an incomplete version.

just speculation though...

i think you're right that madara and hashirama are essentially the incarnations of the sage's sons. but that means that not just hashirama, but madara also has divine powers, which he does. if you think about it, the only rinnegan we've ever seen in the series is madara's. nagato's and obito's are all madara's eyes in the first place so his sole ability to achieve rinnegan is indeed godlike, much like hashirama's body and nature manipulation is indeed godlike. and now of course, sasuke and naruto are the next incarnations of these gods.