Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Aquaman OS]

Those pictures were the only evidence against Athrun (aside from any taken during his escape attempt) though. If they didn't show Luna the pics then they showed her nothing to incriminate him and she took them at their word alone.

[S.Freedom]

Which makes even less sense.

If people came to you and said your brother/sister/mother/father where traitors would you blindly trust them or demand evidence of such treason? Because someone saying "just trust me" or some variation wouldn't cut it for me.

And the only way those pictures could validate Durandals claims of treason is if Luna did not hear what was being said between Athrun/Kira. Which isn't the case because she was listening to the convo and heard Athrun defend ZAFT and tell him to bring Cagalli back to Orb. She also heard Kira reveal that Meer was a fake, and that the real Lacus was not only with the Archangel but had nearly been killed by people piloting ZAFT MS.

[Destined_Fate]

Well look at it this way. If she refused to believe in them she could possibly be labeled a traitor too and it is a ton to ask someone to choose between their country and family. It's why Lunamaria rationalized it that it was Logos's fault and that Athrun dragged her sister into it, thus her sister was collateral damage in stopping the traitorous Athrun and to get revenge she would have to make Logos burn.

Furthermore she doesn't even know Kira so what he says holds no merit as he could be lying for all she knows, that and she was told to forget everything. If she had remembered it or mentioned it she would be jailed immediately for disobeying her gag order and possibly executed.

[BladeEntity]

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

Which makes even less sense.

If people came to you and said your brother/sister/mother/father where traitors would you blindly trust them or demand evidence of such treason? Because someone saying "just trust me" or some variation wouldn't cut it for me.

And the only way those pictures could validate Durandals claims of treason is if Luna did not hear what was being said between Athrun/Kira. Which isn't the case because she was listening to the convo and heard Athrun defend ZAFT and tell him to bring Cagalli back to Orb. She also heard Kira reveal that Meer was a fake, and that the real Lacus was not only with the Archangel but had nearly been killed by people piloting ZAFT MS.

With his position as chairman it isn't impossible to believe that he could fabricate evidence, just as its impossible to call Luna completely foolish for believing that there were traitors based on evidence she herself produced when in fact we are not shown that at all.

If I remember correctly Arthur and Talia were both privy to the pictures and conversation between Athrun and Kira, which means that if Durandal had indeed used that as evidence, both of them are just as foolish to believe that there are traitors hence IMO it seems more likely that Durandal fabricated other evidence. Especially when he said he can take care of the situation by implicating Athrun.

[S.Freedom]

So wait your saying if a government agent came to you and said your brother is a traitor with no other evidence than him saying "just trust me on this" you'd sell your brother out? Man it must suck to have you as a relative than.

Plus Athrun who would know if Kira was lying about Lacus didn't object to Meer being a fake. The only thing he objected to is that ZAFT was involved in the assassination attempt. Meaning Athrun confirmed Kira's comments about Meer/Lacus, thus his other comments may also hold weight.

@BladeEntity Even if President Obama walked up to me today and told me my mother was a traitor I'd ask for proof of his claim. Otherwise I'd tell him to go fuck himself. And what "fabricated" evidence would Durandal produce?

[Destined_Fate]

Lunamaria did NOT sell her sister out and the fact of the matter is that instead of staying and being taken into custody Lunamaria's sister CHOSE to run with Athrun and even hid him when everyone was looking for him. Hell, she outright mislead Lunamaria! Those acts are considered traitorous as Athrun at that point was labelled a traitor. Since Lunamaria's sister also had a crush on Athrun it isn't hard for Lunamaria to believe that Athrun abused that attraction and led her astray to help him escape and even steal a mobile suit.

So if my brother lied to me and tried to sneak a traitor off I sure as heck would be questioning their loyalty and how little they trusted me. If it's a person my brother is in love with too I would also assume that my brother was tricked as well in betraying everyone, including me.

[The American Average]

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

@BladeEntity Even if President Obama walked up to me today and told me my mother was a traitor I'd ask for proof of his claim. Otherwise I'd tell him to go fuck himself. And what "fabricated" evidence would Durandal produce?

Like you'd talk back to Obama, He'd have tons of guards around him helicopters and the stuff. He says "Your Mom is a traitor. Come with me, so we can ask you some questions." Well couple of things, Obama wouldn't show up to greet you in the first place second they'd haul your ass into a pretty intimidating room with big scary looking guards. then they'd show you the "evidence" true or not they don't care what you say they just blow it off if you disagree and if you go public or something (this is I'd assume a big traitorous plot) they wouldn't think twice of silencing the problem

Luna, she was haled into what would seem a cliche looking Interrogation room, from like old cop movies. Had unpleasant looking ZAFT interrogators telling her that her sister had been a traitor with Athrun, not only that ZAFT had an Eye witness, Rey. Since Rey has such a great record with ZAFT and Durandal Backing him up how could anyone say otherwise? With Meyrin and Athrun there was no need to "fabricate" evidence they had real pictures and all they needed to do was put a story with them. I seriously doubt Rey, ZAFT officials, even Shinn would tell Luna what Athrun said in the battle of Gouf vs Destiny/Legend. even if they did i doubt she'd believe it.

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by BladeEntity

If I remember correctly Arthur and Talia were both privy to the pictures and conversation between Athrun and Kira, which means that if Durandal had indeed used that as evidence, both of them are just as foolish to believe that there are traitors hence IMO it seems more likely that Durandal fabricated other evidence. Especially when he said he can take care of the situation by implicating Athrun.

It was just Talia, and she did know the story was fishy but when she tried to interrupt Durandal basically frightened her into submitting, after which she let the matter drop, but her loyalty to Durandal was from that point shaken, to the point where she called off the attack on Orb, even though the original commander (who just died) was ordered to crush and conquer it anyway (Durandal agreed with her, but only because he had to to still look reasonable. Inwardly he was clearly quite pissed).

In the final battle Talia was pretty much running on resignation that Durandal was the only path she had, and when he blew up their own ships in a futile attempt to get Eternal, that was the last straw for her to quit order Minerva's crew to leave, and went inside to confront him at gunpoint.

So Talia did notice that it was a setup, and it did affect her view of Durandal from that point onward.

[BladeEntity]

Spoiler for long:

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

It was just Talia, and she did know the story was fishy but when she tried to interrupt Durandal basically frightened her into submitting, after which she let the matter drop, but her loyalty to Durandal was from that point shaken, to the point where she called off the attack on Orb, even though the original commander (who just died) was ordered to crush and conquer it anyway (Durandal agreed with her, but only because he had to to still look reasonable. Inwardly he was clearly quite pissed).

In the final battle Talia was pretty much running on resignation that Durandal was the only path she had, and when he blew up their own ships in a futile attempt to get Eternal, that was the last straw for her to quit order Minerva's crew to leave, and went inside to confront him at gunpoint.

So Talia did notice that it was a setup, and it did affect her view of Durandal from that point onward.

I highly doubt that Durandal frightened her into submission, all he did was tell her he would explain the situation later, I'm not sure how that translates to her being frightened into submission. Her calling of the attack on ORB was a tactical retreat, once the shuttle left Earth, the probability of their target having left Earth was high so the whole point of the attack would be technically void. Durandal isn't a commander on the field with the AA and Strike Freedom the situation changes it was a good decision and Durandal concurs because he trusts her tactical judgement.

Talia didn't go in to confront Durandal at gunpoint she went there to die with him, hence when she entered and saw Durandal being confronted by Kira, she pointed the gun at Kira not Durandal; if she were indeed looking to confront Durandal she wouldn't have decided to die there with him or point the gun at Kira.

[S.Freedom]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Since Lunamaria's sister also had a crush on Athrun it isn't hard for Lunamaria to believe that Athrun abused that attraction and led her astray to help him escape and even steal a mobile suit.

Did Luna even know Meyrin had a crush on Athrun?

Without that, any evidence is still suspect from Luna's perspective. Did her interrogators know Meyrin had a crush on Athrun? If not they would have to do some major gymnastics to manage a connection. Oh and Meyrin didn't lie to Luna about Athrun. Luna simply walked away after yelling at the guys trying to get into Meyrins room.

Oh Durandal scared Talia into being quite about things. One doesn't need to say threating things in order to scare another person. It can be in HOW someone says something, and or their posture. It can also be in facial expressions and the looks you give a person.

[Destined_Fate]

Quite obvious, they're sisters and and siblings tend to talk about that stuff on their off hours. It would be far more unlikely that they didn't talk about it considering both are huge Athrun fans.

No her interrogators didn't, nor does it matter. Lunamaria would know even if she kept that to herself hence why she never blames Shinn or her sister. That and she was still reeling from being told that her sister not only hid a traitor from everyone but that her sister had lied to her as well as fled with the traitor.

Yes she did, she didn't want Lunamaria to know about Athrun hiding out there so she pretended to shower and let Lunamaria believe nothing was going on. Personally I would have been angry if my brother tricked me in such a way that puts not only their life but mine in danger as well. After all, Lunamaria IS her sibling thus they were right to suspect her too, luckily they decided she was indeed innocent and let her go. They could have easily held her if they thought for a second she was working with her sister to aid a traitor.

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by BladeEntity

I highly doubt that Durandal frightened her into submission, all he did was tell her he would explain the situation later, I'm not sure how that translates to her being frightened into submission.

When Durandal orders Rey to kill them, Talia starts to say something only for Durandal to shoot her what can only be described as a look of pure malice, and she meekly backs down. He does say he'll explain afterwards but Talia is pretty clearly shocked at this, and isn't quite the same afterwards. She has serious reservations about what they are all doing from that point on (except Requiem, and even then she's rather shocked they essentially helped capture it rather than destroy it)

Originally Posted by BladeEntity

Her calling of the attack on ORB was a tactical retreat, once the shuttle left Earth, the probability of their target having left Earth was high so the whole point of the attack would be technically void. Durandal isn't a commander on the field with the AA and Strike Freedom the situation changes it was a good decision and Durandal concurs because he trusts her tactical judgement.

Didn't matter. Durandal also wanted the excuse to conquer Orb then so they couldn't resist his Destiny Plan later on. As shown by his evil grin when Yuna gives him the excuse to move in, and how the commander before Talia was ordered to conquer Orb no matter what (similar to how the Angel Down commander was ordered to take no prisoners and kill everyone on the AA)

In fact considering he thanks Djbril when he Requiems the Plants (making them also victims so they'll agree with his DP) and then has Rey go right to him and take him out with zero trouble, that kind of looks like he was happy Djbril got away.

Durandal says its good judgement, but Durandal lies. Like the aformentioned set up of Athrun, or how he plays up Meer as an unfortunate necessity but only wants to use her to keep the masses at peace and how he'd really like the real Lacus because of how much he respects her (but in his private thoughts reveals he very much hates Lacus and uses Meer for his own agenda)

Although I suppose he could have been simply thinking he could still use Meer to slander Orb. He might have been very very pissed at her if he'd known Orb was going to get out of it with both its credibility and military force still intact.

Originally Posted by BladeEntity

Talia didn't go in to confront Durandal at gunpoint she went there to die with him, hence when she entered and saw Durandal being confronted by Kira, she pointed the gun at Kira not Durandal; if she were indeed looking to confront Durandal she wouldn't have decided to die there with him or point the gun at Kira.

She wasn't expecting Kira or Rey to even be there, but went in with a gun regardless. Obviously she was planning on dying with him, but it looks like she was planning on killing him herself, or at least stopping him from leaving. Since he was already wounded, that was unnecessery so she pointed the gun at Kira to get him to leave them and so he could save himself (as it is he barely makes it). Obviously she had no intention of saving him. If anything she saved Kira, as he might have otherwise stayed to make sure Durandal died.

[BladeEntity]

Kira in destiny is no where new as suicidal as Kira at the end of seed was, he well intended to get off Messiah before it became space debris, going in with a gun doesn't mean Talia intended to kill him. Walking around a warzone without a weapon is foolish hence why she was armed. If I recall she points the gun at Kira before he realises her presence in order to try and save Durandal in case Kira shots. Her getting him to leave by pointing the gun is just her way of showing Kira her determination to protect Durandal from suffering anymore then he already has.

IMO Durandal cut her off with a face that implied that she should trust his judgement rather than simply acting on whatever fear she might have of Durandal. From what was shown of Durandal rather then use fear as a way to control people he prefers using his charisma to get people to belive him.

The commanding officer was the one who issued the order to continue the attack on ORB rather then Durandal as far as I recall.

What you are implying is that Durandal rather the Minerva and Zaft forces fight a losing battle because he wanted to destroy ORB so they couldn't interfere with the DP. Despite the fact the the excuse that was used might have very well already left. In order for his DP to be able to influence the world he would still have to keep up the appearance that he is doing the right thing.

I don't remember Durandal thanking Djbril for blasting the plants but I remember him thanking Djbril for provided a weapon capable of destroying the very country he failed to eliminate before Djbril escaped.

He definitely lies I don't expect a politician to always tell the truth that's just naive but to say that he thinks that retreating after have lost a majority of his forces once the AA joins the battlefield an undestandable tactic a lie either tells me that he doesn't know what he is doing as Chairman and head of ZAFT which isn't the case with the war he orchestrates everything behind the scenes in order to unveil his DP to a world more ready to accept it.

Meer is an unfotunate nessecity considering he knows that the actual Lacus will not conform to his plans means that he loses an important influencial force on the coordinators which is why he needs her. It is unfortunate that because his whole plan would be so much easier if Lacus would easily agree with his plans. I don't think he hates her personally but hates the fact that she is the main obstacle in achieving his goals. Even more so with Kira as her knight.

[The American Average]

YouTube

https://youtu.be/gOJUOLzRV9s

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

really good episode lots of Heine edits which is good.

[The American Average]

I know this has nothing to do with this episode but I was looking up the specs of the Infinte Justice http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/see.../zgmf-x19a.htm and it says its 79.67 metric tons thats really heavy. So then i went and checked the other CE suits and Many of them are over in the 70 metric ton area, then i started looking into the series of Gundam. So i tried to think of a really big suit from UC and i picked the Xi Gundam http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/hathaway/rx-105.htm hes only at 30 tons and he's a huge suit. then i checked the Wing series suits i'd think they'd be really heavy being made of gundanium but they were like 8 tons =/. so my question is why is the CE suits so heavy? I really doubt its just because of Phase Shift Armor.

[S.Freedom]

@American Average If you look carefully at Xi Gundam it has a full weight of 80 tons. It actually has two separate weights "base" and "full", you only looked at the "base" weight. Which isn't that
much heavier than the I.Justice.

As for the episode. The best I can come up with is at least they showed Heine's face.

[Skye629]

Originally Posted by The American Average

I know this has nothing to do with this episode but I was looking up the specs of the Infinte Justice http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/see.../zgmf-x19a.htm and it says its 79.67 metric tons thats really heavy. So then i went and checked the other CE suits and Many of them are over in the 70 metric ton area, then i started looking into the series of Gundam. So i tried to think of a really big suit from UC and i picked the Xi Gundam http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/hathaway/rx-105.htm hes only at 30 tons and he's a huge suit. then i checked the Wing series suits i'd think they'd be really heavy being made of gundanium but they were like 8 tons =/. so my question is why is the CE suits so heavy? I really doubt its just because of Phase Shift Armor.

Wings units are pretty small, and from what I remember Gundanium alloy was not that heavy, but very durable at the same time (I stand to be corrected on this)

I would say the IJ and the rest of the nuclear powered suits have enough output to maintain the amount of thrust needed to support that sort of weight while not draining the suits batteries/engine/reactor, if the MP suits are that heavy then IDK unless they're the space use units

I would say the Xi is not a good comparison point considering its sheer size, try something like the Zeta, Mk 2 or Grandaddy

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

As for the episode. The best I can come up with is at least they showed Heine's face.

IIRC that Heine's-face scene is something from the Special Edition. So, there's nothing new there in terms of Remaster. But I agree that Heine showing up is always a good thing .

[Mad Pierrot]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

IIRC that Heine's-face scene is something from the Special Edition. So, there's nothing new there in terms of Remaster. But I agree that Heine showing up is always a good thing .

I just hope they make his death scene less dumb. With the song METEOR it felt that Heine was killed because he was GOUFing around. Singing at your own funeral is really weird.

[The American Average]

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

@American Average If you look carefully at Xi Gundam it has a full weight of 80 tons. It actually has two separate weights "base" and "full", you only looked at the "base" weight. Which isn't that
much heavier than the I.Justice.

think i didn't notice that.... I thought of the heaviest biggest suit in the UC timeline that's at least MS sized not MA sized like Psycho Gundam. the Xi is 23 meters tall and it has lots of Stuff on it while the Infinite Justice is only like a 18 meter yet their weight isn't too far away from each other.

Originally Posted by Skye629

Wings units are pretty small, and from what I remember Gundanium alloy was not that heavy, but very durable at the same time (I stand to be corrected on this)
I would say the IJ and the rest of the nuclear powered suits have enough output to maintain the amount of thrust needed to support that sort of weight while not draining the suits batteries/engine/reactor, if the MP suits are that heavy then IDK unless they're the space use units. I would say the Xi is not a good comparison point considering its sheer size, try something like the Zeta, Mk 2 or Grandaddy

Yeah the Wing Gundams are rather small they are in the Gundam Victory suit sized range. i just thought Gundanium would be heavier.

i just don't see how the CE suits are so heavy, the Nuclear reactor on the suit can't weight that much. Many of the CE suits look like they couldn't even hold that much weight with the lack of thrusters. The I.Justice is one of the few i can kinda see why its heavy, with its huge backpack, but many of the other suits? S.Freedom weighting in at 80 metric tons and all it is, is a flying gun with littler flying guns with gold trim.

The reason I used the Xi was to show just how heavy the CE suits really are. if i would have used the MKII for example http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/z/rx-178.htm it would been easier i guess to see where i was coming from, but i just find it weird that the S.Freedom weighs as much as that behemoth Xi gundam.