Character Discussion - Suzaku

[bladeofdarkness]

i think that in all the talk about Z-R, too much importence is placed on lelouch's sacrifice (its not only that)
we often seem to igonre suzaku's actual role in the events that FOLLOW lelouch's death
the point of Z-R wasnt simply to create a symbol of hate that people can direct all the worlds hate towards
even more importently IMO was that the act of killing lelouch gives zero (suzaku) the power and admiration to LEAD the world into peace

people seem to view lelouch's death as the end game, but its not
its just the beginning
its the creation of the hero that killed him that is the main point
thats why its called ZERO-REQUIEM
killing lelouch creates a champion figure for the world to unite BEHIND (where as emperor lelouch was a symbol to unite against)
what follows AFTER lelouch's death is the importent part
suzaku is left with the task of changing the world for the better, and with the power and authority to make these changes

lelouch created ZERO as a symbol that people can unite around in hope
suzaku is carrying this idea to an even greater degree, because now the entire WORLD views him as a hero leader figure and a savior rather then just japan and the UFN

makes me wonder if anyone would try and call suzaku out on that one day
he had in essence gained power through deception
he is worshiped for killing a tyrant he had helped put in power in the first place
and is arguably as guilty for lelouch's crimes as lelouch himself
if it ever got out that he is zero under the mask, he is likely to be tried for crimes against humanity (much worse ones then what lelouch did)

its like this
2 people work together
one guy pushs someone into a river, so that the other guy could "save" them and be viewed as a hero
if news of this came out, who's more likely to be hated more
the guy who pushed, or the guy who took credit for saving someone he was responsible for endangering in the first place (for the explicit PURPOSE of taking the credit and being viewed as a hero for it)
the argument of "he did it for the best" wouldnt fly in this case

[dash~]

Suzaku is an interesting character. It's hard to understand his decisions, and his thoughts about his nationality, cause japanese people usually hate brittanian ones [spoilers]but he found his self as a royal brittanian knight. His emotions take him away, it looks like he's out of mind. Anyway, I like him, he's very tough and usually thinks about people, not only his self.

[demon_god04]

@bladeofdarkness

True enough, and it begs the question, atleast to me, what skills the Suzaku himself really bring to the table of changing the world for the better. Forgive me for saying so, but in most of the situations that have placed him in a position of leadership, Suzaku has not exactly been showing a great deal of potential in that area. All he really brings to the table is the Zero name, but he can be easily replaced, and that Schneizel would be the one doing most of the work. All they really need is someone to wear the mantle of Zero and Schneizel would continue doing what he is doing.

However, I doubt anyone would be willing to call Suzaku out on it, as it would threaten to expose the truth about Zero and the world would lose the unifying point they had in Zero. Currently, while Suzaku, under the name Zero, is working towards the goal of making the world a better place, there are no advantages to exposing him and trying him for war crimes.

[Rising Dragon]

I think we should keep in mind that Suzaku doesn't have to be a leader. As Milly noted earlier in the series, Zero had reduced himself from a man to a symbol. All Suzaku needs to be as Zero is a figurehead. He can leave the actual leadership to Nunnally, and he can use Schneizel for battle plans if another war breaks out.

[demon_god04]

Well, that was my point, Suzaku is not necessary and does not really bring skills to the table where it could be put to use. All is really needed is someone to wear the mask of Zero. However a Zero is needed as a rallying point, which is why it is very unlikely that anyone would ever call Suzaku out for his war crimes as Emperor Lelouch's knight.

And I would expect that Shneizel's political genius is also put to work inorder to create this new world. Schneizel is not only good for fighting a war, but is also a very able administrator.

[bladeofdarkness]

which is all good and well in peace times
but what happens if war breaks out
while the upside of Z-R was that it leaves people with free will to determine their own future
the downside to that would always be that some people would seek power over others

how effective would he be as a leader during war times
hell... who does he even LEAD during war times ?

[demon_god04]

Well, like I said, Suzaku is not really much of a leader. Schneizel would really be the one doing all the work and Zero would just be the symbol that people can believe in and rally behind. And we have seen that Schneizel can be very effective during war times.

[Kid Ying]

I agree, Suzaku already got Schneisel to make any battle plan he want if something occurs, besides, it's not like Suzaku is a retard, when he was the leader in that operation against the BK, he did it pretty well until Lelouch came.

With the combo: Nunnally, Suzaku and Schneisel, i don't think someone trying to start an war would be too much of a problem... Schneisel makes some plans and use his diplomacy and if it doesn't work, Suzaku can always go kick some asses with another version of the Lancelot, hehe.

[snowdevil_crow]

That might be a bit too obvious...

Though it would be SO fun to watch Kallen and Suzaku finally working together to take down someone.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow

That might be a bit too obvious...

Though it would be SO fun to watch Kallen and Suzaku finally working together to take down someone.

the only reason why any of the other pilots in the show even MATTER is because suzaku and kallen cancel each other out
they even curb stomp anyone standing in the way before clashing

do you really think there would be a point to having them on the same side ?
its like bringing a nuke to a knife fight

[snowdevil_crow]

If Xingke wasn't sick... and they were all using non-haxy mechas (just regular old standard Knightmares!)...


I could see Xingke + Gino (or Anya, take your pick. Or, heck, possibly Jeremiah?) vs Kallen + Suzaku being pretty fun. 8D

[morbosfist]

Kallen and Jeremiah would have the greatest advantages in such a situation, I'd say. Jeremiah was a good pilot in a regular Sutherland, and Kallen had the even crappier Glasgow and held her own with one hand.

The others are hard to judge. Gino and Anya you assume trained in lesser machines. Xingke, probably. Suzaku is the only one we know outright was always piloting the best thing around, and as I've argued elsewhere he does not take it well when he's not the best anymore.

[snowdevil_crow]

Yeah... that's why it would be fun to see XD

[Kid Ying]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Kallen and Jeremiah would have the greatest advantages in such a situation, I'd say. Jeremiah was a good pilot in a regular Sutherland, and Kallen had the even crappier Glasgow and held her own with one hand.

The others are hard to judge. Gino and Anya you assume trained in lesser machines. Xingke, probably. Suzaku is the only one we know outright was always piloting the best thing around, and as I've argued elsewhere he does not take it well when he's not the best anymore.

Hey, he wasn't the best in the final battle, but still he took Kallen out of the picture in the end(in exchange for his life... But no matter!). We can't judge Suzaku by this, Llloyd said his tests were at the best they could find. You're not the best just because you in dah hacks. You also need skill.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Kid Ying

Hey, he wasn't the best in the final battle, but still he took Kallen out of the picture in the end(in exchange for his life... But no matter!). We can't judge Suzaku by this, Llloyd said his tests were at the best they could find. You're not the best just because you in dah hacks. You also need skill.

Suzaku has more instinct than skill, and in the final battle he was pressing the advantage of his live Geass just to keep up. Even then, he was complaining because it wasn't enough, right up until that last-ditch attack at the end. Suzaku relies on having the advantage, and whenever he loses it his attitude and performance suffers.

I might as well repeat my previous explanations. I'll try to keep it short. Suzaku starts off with the best Knightmare there is, and regardless of the context it is the only thing which is letting him beat other pilots. Stage 11 comes along and Kallen fights him in the Guren. Suddenly he's matched blow for blow, and it scares the hell out of him. He's is quite obviously desperate to stop this red monster breaking everything he throws at it. Same thing in Turn 6. The Guren can now fly and he's distressed because it obviously should not be better than his top-tier mech. Turn 18 speaks for itself really. Even in Turn 24, he sees the Guren and immediately backs up out of fear. Suzaku's confidence stems from his superiority, and when he loses the latter the former goes with it. The Geass just kept him straight.

[snowdevil_crow]

Mind you, Kallen's a topnotch pilot. I don't think he'd have as much trouble with someone else in a similarly advanced mecha as he did when it was Kallen piloting it.

It's not that he's a bad pilot aside from his haxy mecha, it's that Kallen is also a good pilot with a haxy mecha.

[bladeofdarkness]

i think that what morbo means (and i agree to some extent) is that suzaku's performance are strongly related to his self confidence and suffer considerably whenever he finds himself at a situation where he isnt the strongest.
he is used to being the strongest after getting the lancelot and is clearly shocked/surprised/worried whenever presented with an enemy that can fight him on equal terms or beat him
this extends not only to mecha combat, but also on foot (bismark)
he is used to being the best, to such an extent that he can stand in the middle of a battlefield in europe and declare "surrender or be destroyed" to a small army
and his confidence is such that he marks fellow KoR gino as "not good enough" to take kallen on despite being technologiclly overwhelmed himself in such a situation

granted, its not like pride is something most pilots arent guilty of (kallen tried to take the lancelot on with a one armed glassgo)
but most pilots in the show are used to fighting in older mass proudced machines, which focus more on skill then anything else
most are used to not being the strongest
suzaku has always been so far better then anyone else, that when faced with someone who can fight on his level, he starts suffering for it

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow

Mind you, Kallen's a topnotch pilot. I don't think he'd have as much trouble with someone else in a similarly advanced mecha as he did when it was Kallen piloting it.

It's not that he's a bad pilot aside from his haxy mecha, it's that Kallen is also a good pilot with a haxy mecha.

Well, this is part of my point. Suzaku hasn't had the time to build up skill (he has at least built up experience by R2). He's just got an uber mech that dominates, and as soon as he loses that he's desperate. Contrast with Kallen, who when faced with the Lancelot equipped with flight, was still confident she could kick his ass, and did as far as severely hindering his combat abilities goes. He had to take off to the air because he had no chance on the ground.

Edit: Blade put it pretty well too, though I must point out that Kallen only took on the Lancelot in her failing Glasgow to return the favor to Lelouch. She did not expect to win.

[Sol Falling]

Um, I don't see how 'lack of confidence' has any specific relevance to Suzaku's ability to pilot a normal mech, though. Suzaku might be used to being the best, but he's still good enough that he'd trounce most people in a mech the same level as everyone else's. If we take Kallen and Suzaku's final battle as a 'tie' in the sense that they both disabled the other from being able to continue fighting, I honestly wouldn't foresee a different outcome had they been fighting in Sutherlands.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Um, I don't see how 'lack of confidence' has any specific relevance to Suzaku's ability to pilot a normal mech, though. Suzaku might be used to being the best, but he's still good enough that he'd trounce most people in a mech the same level as everyone else's.

It's not about his ability to pilot, even Euphemia could pilot a Knightmare, it's about his performance. Suzaku is constantly handed the best stuff, such that he simply expects to be better than his opponent. Take that away and his performance suffers severely. Turn 18 is a prime example of this. He tried a cowardly tactic to take Kallen out of the fight before she could cause him trouble. When his best weapon is brushed off like a gentle breeze, he abandons any pretense at strategy (save a one-off and very stupid suggestion that he'd do better in close-range against the Guren of all things) and just starts beam-spamming. I'd cite other example of less one-sided fights, but I've done so already. The moment Suzaku realizes that he's not the best, panic starts setting in, and from there he gets stomped until some twist of fate spares him. The last fight is an exception of sorts, but even there he treats his live Geass like it should make him unbeatable.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

If we take Kallen and Suzaku's final battle as a 'tie' in the sense that they both disabled the other from being able to continue fighting, I honestly wouldn't foresee a different outcome had they been fighting in Sutherlands.

Suzaku has no experience in a Sutherland, while Kallen has piloted something even less high tech. Kallen would be better acquainted with such a vehicle and as such have an edge in their battle. She's also flat-out the better pilot of the two.