2012-01-29, 02:06 | Link #27381 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Seems like a good time to bring this up.
I haven't reread episode 5 in awhile. But for some reason I was always under the impression that Meta Erika didn't exist until she was brought up to their level in the Witch Trial scene. I don't really remember her interacting with Battler, Bern and Lambda at all until that part. and this part of episode 5 is probably what got that in my head. Spoiler for space:
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2012-01-29, 02:19 | Link #27383 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Mmm, well, it is a bit odd. I'd say it's just Bern controlling her piece very directly, similarly to how Lambda appears to be very literally acting out the MF19YAO dialogue during the phone calls.
And to be fair, Erika herself delivered the purely Meta "Detective's authority. ......The detective has the right to inspect all crime scenes. Stand back, Ushiromiya Battler. This is an official right of this game, which the human side has acknowledged.", right before the screenshot you posted. Also, while I myself would say Piece-Erika and Meta-Erika are just about the same entity, all the time, Erika starts participating in the Meta layer (or at least, a layer above the Gameboard) in the scene of Kinzo's escape from his study. She talks to Kinzo, Beato, and introduces Dlanor. I forget if she was above the Gameboard earlier than that. Last edited by Kealym; 2012-01-29 at 02:19. Reason: forgot |
2012-01-29, 02:37 | Link #27384 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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After the study fight, Meta-Battler tells Dlanor that it was Lambda!Battler doing the fighting in that fantasy scene rather than himself, so there's a definite distinction being made between the meta world and the game board's fantasy layer.
Besides which, even if there is some continuity between Meta-Erika and Fantasy-Erika, that doesn't necessarily mean anything. The game was being replayed for Battler, so it's possible that only Fantasy-Erika existed in the original run, and Meta-Erika was only added to fight Battler and deliberately made to align with Fantasy-Erika after the fact.
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2012-01-29, 02:54 | Link #27385 |
The True Culprit
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Should we really call that a 'fantasy layer'? I mean, it's basically a meta-argument, and Erika shouldn't be seeing Fantasy whatsover. It's more like Meta-shenanigans with Lambda basically using a Battler piece for her extra flair.
Or Lambdadelta just crashing everything together because "lol things Beatrice wouldn't do."
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2012-01-29, 02:54 | Link #27386 | ||||||||
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(I've got to admit, though, I find it funny that despite having information on the previous games, Erika never seemed to have thought of Kanon's deaths as suspicious. Well, I guess that's not necessarily Erika being dumb, but R07 simply not thinking that far. I think the same about the trial in EP5, and how Beatrice couldn't figure out the trick in red about dead people, when she herself had resorted to similar tricks in the past. That, and that even though she claimed she had committed the crimes, she kept on trying to place the blame on humans throughout the trial.) Quote:
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In addition, that doesn't help the idea of her trying to truly search for alibis. She knew the mansion was the place were the people with the motives to do shit were located, yet she never did anything about it. In fact, had it not been for Bern, she'd have been unable to put up an argument had Beatrice brought up the people in the mansion. Quote:
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(I also find it odd that no one spoke of the scenes with Natsuhi being black-mailed. We know the players can see scenes even if their pieces aren't there - for example, the scene with the mysterious knock. Yet, no one spoke about the scenes with Natsuhi being called by the man from 19 years ago.) Quote:
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2012-01-29, 03:09 | Link #27387 | |||||||||
The True Culprit
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As for EP6, she DOES try and drill Battler about it. He's all evasive and shit though and eventually satisfies her with "Everyone is there" and "No one shares names" and whatnot. She honestly tried to see if there was a trick there. Quote:
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But in all seriousness, she's keeping an eye on Battler because he found the gold. So she doesn't really have a choice. Quote:
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2012-01-29, 03:24 | Link #27388 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Besides, Bern did comment on the first scene with the man from 19 years ago and asked Lambda to confirm in red that it happened, but she refused. So it's not like they all just ignored it.
By the way, Erika definitely existed in meta before the trial. She's right there with Bern and Lambda arguing about the knock and the letter. |
2012-01-29, 03:27 | Link #27389 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Anyway, it seems to be the same level that fantasy shenanigans usually take place on, and Lambda's mystery shenanigans amount to fantasy anyway, so I'm happy enough considering it the same layer, no matter what we decide to call it. Things like the study fight took place directly on the game board rather than the meta world, and involved fantasy characters who had been personally participating in actual fantasy scenes earlier.
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2012-01-29, 03:51 | Link #27390 | ||||
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tl;dr I still rather ascribe that hour to Lambda's designs to pick on Natsuhi - she could have, at any point, verified Natsuhi's alibi with the red, after all. (I also find it odd that no one spoke of the scenes with Natsuhi being black-mailed. We know the players can see scenes even if their pieces aren't there - for example, the scene with the mysterious knock. Yet, no one spoke about the scenes with Natsuhi being called by the man from 19 years ago.) Full circle. This is the same problem of "Kanon behind Godha" - we could just as well say that only Erika and Natsuhi were in that parlor for that particular scene, because Erika stared directly into her eyes the entire time, and didn't first-person-narrate to tell us otherwise. Or, more reasonably phrased, it allows any character to just come and go without indication, which seems ... odd. |
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2012-01-29, 04:35 | Link #27391 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
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If it wasn't a plot hole, then the explanation is that Erika's performance as the detective was a fraud. She was just Bern's proxy. Well, we kinda knew that anyway, Erika always got treated like a slave.
Also the plot was really centered on the whole thing of hiding Kinzo's death, so it's like Lambda was intentionally revealing Natsuhi's weakness. Maybe she was in it too, and they were all just going to defile the game by framing Natsuhi? Of course, Lambda was also secretly hoping for Battler to realise the underlying truths and rile things up. So throughout episode 5 Erika wasn't really detecting, except for the epitaph and when Battler challenged her logic. She was just carrying out a premediated plan.
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2012-01-29, 05:20 | Link #27392 | ||
The True Culprit
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2012-01-29, 07:48 | Link #27393 | |||||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-01-29 at 08:39. |
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2012-01-29, 12:48 | Link #27394 | ||
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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And you're not the only ones. We've all beaten this horse to death and beyond. We've tried our best to look at the issue from as many different angles as possible. And this isn't the first time this has been discussed. I've come up with my own theory about this, some number of pages back. My objective in making it was to create a theory which no one here could prove false. So I asked for everyone's arguments, and you two provided rebuttals which could invalidate it. I tried to overcome those rebuttals, and found that I could not. However, a certain response to your rebuttals is now possible for me. And that would be something along these lines: If it was possible to find a solution which satisfies you, I guarantee that you would have found it already. Therefore, at least one of your claims must be false. My intention is only to have you provide evidence of your arguments which make my theory impossible. If you can provide specific evidence from the Sound Novels, that I am unable to work around, my theory will fail and I will lose this argument. Normally, "questioning the basis" is not really a viable response. This is because we can ordinarily assume that, even without doing so, a solution is possible. However, in this case, not only have you been unable to find a solution yourselves, but you haven't provided evidence to back up your claims. Of course, I understand if you don't have time to look for all of that evidence. I wouldn't have time either. In that case, if you refuse to provide evidence, we'll call a truce. Neither of us can disprove the other's arguments, and therefore both of them are left standing, even though they contradict each other. |
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2012-01-29, 14:48 | Link #27395 |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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If you compare Erika to Battler, then it would make sense to say, that Erika really became a "meta-being" when the trial started. Because Battler also wasn't "Meta" until the tea party of Legend.
Also there are multiple "layers" of Meta. For example in EP6 there were a Meta-Goerge and and a Meta-Jessica. I will refer to this as "Sub-Meta" from now on. As you remember all fights in EP1-3 happened in the "tea room", while in EP4 for the first time, Battler entered the real "higher planes" (the round room with the chairs at the corners). In the "???"-tea parties you could always observe the talks between Beato and Bern/Lambda in that room, where at the end one of them was always speaking to Battler directly and he was just sitting in the corner. Later when Bern/Lambda first appeared before him, he says he "remembers them from somewhere" but he cannot remember them clearly. But in EP5 he was in that room as a "full fledged player", as you can see from the screenshot from Judoh. So we can assume that: 1. Erika had to go through at least 1 game to become a "Meta-Being" (as she definitly was a Meta-Being in EP6). 2. From EP1 till EP3 Battler was only "Sub-Meta", before he finally could rise to the higher planes. In EP5 the tea room was part of the story as the base for the phantoms, so it defnitly is "Sub-Meta" while the "higher room" is Meta. There is also the possibility that there are even more "Meta-layers" than 2. ____ Also now that i think about it... in the anime they made the mistake to transfer everything into that "higher room" and not using the tea room aside from the tea parties of Legend and Turn. sry for overusing "" it's a bad habbit. |
2012-01-29, 15:27 | Link #27396 | |||||
The True Culprit
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I used a single F-bomb. You know from previous experience that I use swear words all the time even when I'm not angry. No disrespect is intended with it, I just don't care. But apparently you didn't bother to remember that so it indicates that you don't respect me as a fellow poster. Quote:
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And questioning the basis is entirely valid in formal debates. You also forget that I totally provided a solution. Kanon was behind Gohda flashing the bunny ears. Everyone thought it was hilarious so Erika never brought it up infront of Gohda. Quote:
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2012-01-29, 16:05 | Link #27397 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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And if you want to claim you're free to use such words well, sorry, but I want to be free to chose to not listen them, which definitely destroy any possibility of conversation between the two of us. |
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2012-01-29, 16:06 | Link #27398 | |||||
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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It's also quite hard to imagine that we're missing something when, as I said, you guys already outlined every single possibility, and seem to have rejected all of them, and this isn't the first time this has been discussed. Furthermore, while it's impossible for me to prove that we aren't missing something, it's also impossible for you to prove that we are. In such cases, the Gold Truth becomes useful, which is why I used it. Quote:
So I thought this was a reasonable grounds for me to question whether your claims on Erika's reliable perspective are actually supported. Quote:
Well, I was just going off what Beatrice said in EP2. I'm not a member of a debate team or anything, so I don't really know. Quote:
If Kanon doesn't have a body, and it's actually just someone else making it look like Kanon is flashing bunny ears behind Gohda... Then as far as I can see, you would say that she's not allowed to mistake one thing for something else, so it invalidates Piece Erika's reliable perspective. ^I could be wrong on that last bit. If I am, though, that would make me even more confused, because that seems to be the whole reason why my theory on the Parlor scene was rejected. If that's not the reason why it was rejected, could you explain what exactly the reason was? I'm still confused about it. Quote:
In particular, what is Detective's Authority? Did they explicitly tell her that her perspective is at the level of Red Truth? Did they explicitly say that there will be absolutely no tricks of any kind played on her perspective? Keep in mind, these tricks don't need to involve Lambda or Bern lying to her. Even something as simple as "she saw/heard something correctly but mistook it for something else that was very similar" or "her vision/hearing was at least partially obstructed by something" is enough. In other words, can we slip something by without the need for everyone to be playing a cruel trick on her? That's what I want to know. |
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2012-01-29, 16:18 | Link #27399 | |||||||||
The True Culprit
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Or Kanon is just standing behind Gohda. Which, while stupid, satisfies everything. Quote:
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2012-01-29, 17:05 | Link #27400 | |||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Erika went in trying to create and impose a "truth", not to uncover one. Quote:
What Detective's Authority is, aside from an ability to "view all crime scenes" and to "perform perfect autopsies", is completely unexplained. Your and Renall's entire argument is founded on beliefs about what this unexplained portion is, but you always evade outlining these beliefs or why you believe them. Quote:
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