Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[Akiyoshi]

On the other side i have nearly all my money on Arnage joining the good guys, possibly followed by Deville and Stella. Arnage seems to be sympathetic to a degree as also showing genuine corncern about Tohma, Deville pulled a Big Damn Heroes moment to save her an he isn't particulary "evil" towards the heroes unlike Cypha, Veyron or Curren, and while i find Stella quite creepy, she's still a little girl and probably very influenced in her descicions by her fellow Huckebeins and the events in her life. So far those three are the closest to redemption in my book.

EDIT: Page claimed for a free spot for an implacable badass xD

[Mirron]

Have to agree. Curren is the one I feel can go either way. She doesn't seem particularly evil to me, but there also is a lot more going on with her. So I could see her joining the good guys. I'm doubtful on Veyron joining the good guys, but it could happen. Stella will be interesting if she does join the good guys, mostly because she doesn't seem like... well, a viable combat person. Unless her Divider can shrink in size and become some sort of body suit or a small jet. :P

I bring that up because I'm certain that the good guys will retain their powers in the end. They'll find a cure which drops the need to kill, and possibly drops their healing aspect, but retains the increased armor from their skin (Barrier Jacket equivalent) and Divider, perhaps with reduced but still useful anti-magic capabilities. Could even become more widespread after this, but I'm uncertain on that. It could remain exclusive to them, like being a cyborg, though a less powerful but more widespread Eclipse school seems plausible to me at least.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Mirron

Eclipse school seems plausible to me at least.

And this, ladies and gentlement, is how all other magic schools got screwed right of the bat xDU.

[dahak]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Linith was the familiar of a (mad) scientist, Anchor Gun wasn't that awesome (that reminds me: did Tea upgraded it into Cross Mirage or were they two separate Devices), and Subaru's set of devices were inherited.

Anchor gun and Cross Mirage are different items. The Anchor gun has been retired to the drawer with Tiida's gun, whereas Cross Mirage was made by Mariel and Rein while Teana was training with the Anchor Gun. But Subaru made at least one set of rollers before joining RF6. I want to say several but I can't remember where I got that from.

Lutecia however made Brunzel and Rio and Thoma both have what might be commercially manufactured civilian devices [Solfège and Steed]. Plus the whole need Class 3 devices [which Brunzel, Solfège and Asteon qualify for] to be allowed to compete in organised sports issue.

I'd suggest that Hayate, Rein and Agito making a device as a casual favour in a relatively short period says something about the sort of cost and difficulty involved.

[Mirron]

You do notice that I said that it would have reduced anti-magic capabilities. So it'd probably be more like a portable Gadget Drone, not full on magic nullification, but reduction. I expect that, in exchange for having zero drawbacks, it's overall power would be reduced.

Of course, I doubt that happening, but who knows.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by dahak

I'd suggest that Hayate, Rein and Agito making a device as a casual favour in a relatively short period says something about the sort of cost and difficulty involved.

Well, Hayate must have plenty of resources and connections being a high ranked official, and is also implied that she and Rein have the knowledge to craft Belkan-style tuned devices due to the time they stuidied the Book of the Blessed Wind andBelkan hisory, Agito uhm ...helps with the design! =D. Also Lutecia is a very knowledged girl who is fascinated with Belkan history and that learns how to craft devices as a hobby(also implied to being quite intellingent for her age).

Not anyone can craft devices like candy, and those who do it more likely have the right maerials to do so(like at the devices created by Hayate and Lutecia, they look much more fine tund that the custom made by Teana and Subaru at the beginning of StrikerS).

What i find kind of ironic is that in past seasons devices and magic are treated like big serious bussines but then came ViVid and FORCE and suddenly Devices are more akin to little kid toys rather than weapons and magic only works for showy sports competition.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by dahak

Anchor gun and Cross Mirage are different items. The Anchor gun has been retired to the drawer with Tiida's gun, whereas Cross Mirage was made by Mariel and Rein while Teana was training with the Anchor Gun. But Subaru made at least one set of rollers before joining RF6. I want to say several but I can't remember where I got that from.

Lutecia however made Brunzel and Rio and Thoma both have what might be commercially manufactured civilian devices [Solfège and Steed]. Plus the whole need Class 3 devices [which Brunzel, Solfège and Asteon qualify for] to be allowed to compete in organised sports issue.

I'd suggest that Hayate, Rein and Agito making a device as a casual favour in a relatively short period says something about the sort of cost and difficulty involved.

I did say that Isis made a device comparable to brand new experimental military grade weapons, not current generation devices . Did she dabble in ancient, forbidden weapons designs (since this kind of stuff was more common a long, long time ago)? Or perhaps she's one herself (surviving that kind of neck injury must count for something)?

Besides, Hayate's a colonel with many strings to pull. Few people can reprimand her for playing Device Sinterklas, and considering the risks many would just turn a blind eye. And don't forget that Vita was a favorite of a legendary admiral (and before someone points out how such a thing wouldn't pass in real life, may I remind you that TSAB isn't exactly the most professional or, heck, military sane organization, having many aspects that no proper modern military would approve)

More importantly, if making Devices were really cheap and simple, then why the heck does the redshirts all gets pathetic standard issue staves, with no cartridge system or advanced AI?

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Mirron

You do notice that I said that it would have reduced anti-magic capabilities. So it'd probably be more like a portable Gadget Drone, not full on magic nullification, but reduction. I expect that, in exchange for having zero drawbacks, it's overall power would be reduced.

Of course, I doubt that happening, but who knows.

Eclipse look more to me like forbidden alchemy, something too dangerous and unethical to actually be allowed to be taught, the lab people probably is trying to play god(or devil) with this and the Huckbein manage to escape their control and run away. I agreed on the possibility of the Hucks keeping their powers but i really doubt that "Eclipse" get expanded into something like an official school or something like hat. Eclipse is a disease not a style, it's also something that change your physical body internally, for all intentions and purpouses they're basically mutants.

If the redeemed Huckbeins do mantain their powers i expect them to become some sort of secret unit(like the Doom Patrol or the Suicide Squad) sended into missions that ordinary mages(ie. the rest of the cast) can't face or that are too "politically compromising" to be managed officially. Doing all the dirty work for the TSAB.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

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More importantly, if making Devices were really cheap and simple, then why the heck does the redshirts all gets pathetic standard issue staves, with no cartridge system or advanced AI?

OUCH! ...that's a very damn good question xDU

[Mirron]

Well, it'd be massively toned down. So it'd be more comparable to normal magic, just more focused on defensive (due to the anti-magic), so it'd be difficult to damage them, but they'd be less damaging.

But I do agree, I don't see it happening. It's interesting to contemplate, but it'd require a massive overhaul in order to pull off, which I just don't see happening, sadly.

As for the device issue, perhaps it's simply way too expensive to give everyone devices in the army. Or just not worth the cost compared to the increase in effectiveness, at least.

[dahak]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

More importantly, if making Devices were really cheap and simple, then why the heck does the redshirts all gets pathetic standard issue staves, with no cartridge system or advanced AI?

Because both the cartridge system and AI require a lot from the user. Whereas the standard issue Storage Devices are faster to use than Armed and Intelligent devices and require less power from the user.

Note Chrono's preference for Storage Devices, for those reasons. Klarwind doesn't use cartridges either.

Cartridge systems also require charged cartridges and Shamal [an AA+ mage] wasn't managing to charge them much faster than one or two an hour.

If they cost roughly what Assault rifles do, it makes sense if the Standard Stave costs similar to an AK-74 or M-16 and the Armed/Intelligent Devices are similar or greater in comparative cost to a G-11 that troopers get the standard ones and it takes being elite to get the better ones. Much like the British army's use of L85's for line troops while being willing to let the SAS have G-11's if the sabre prefers them as their long arm.

Note the way Puffy, Brunzel, Solfège, Asteon, Steed and Cris don't have cartridge systems despite at least two being made for Belkan Mages. Nove doesn't seem to have one for either Jet Edge or Gun Knuckle either, despite Jet Edge having been upgraded.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by dahak

If they cost roughly what Assault rifles do, it makes sense if the Standard Stave costs similar to an AK-74 or M-16 and the Armed/Intelligent Devices are similar or greater in comparative cost to a G-11 that troopers get the standard ones and it takes being elite to get the better ones. Much like the British army's use of L85's for line troops while being willing to let the SAS have G-11's if the sabre prefers them as their long arm.

And then we have big bunch of little and teenage girls waving advanced intelligent/armed devices in front of those poor TSAB red shirts xDU.

[Mirron]

But they're significantly more powerful than they are. It'd be like giving a novice soldier extremely advanced gear. You give the more advanced soldiers more advanced gear, because it's better used that way, and they'll get more bang for their buck.

I do imagine it'd suck to be a grunt in their world though.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by dahak

Note the way Puffy, Brunzel, Solfège, Asteon, Steed and Cris don't have cartridge systems despite at least two being made for Belkan Mages. Nove doesn't seem to have one for either Jet Edge or Gun Knuckle either, despite Jet Edge having been upgraded.

Still they sport far more advanced capability and intellingence than a regular red shirt equipement, and in the cases of Puffy and Jet Edge they are akin to unique styles apart from the norm(Puffy didn't use cartridges but uses high dangerous chemicals and Jet Edge is designed to work with a full fleshed combat cyborg that uses an Inherent Skill instead of magic) as also being able to keep toe-to-toe with high caliber armed/intelligent devices(hot damn, like Tiresias said, Puffy was much more effective against the Eclipse than any other AEC save for Sword Breaker).

Talking about that maybe the guys of Cadlefwich Techniques can lear a thing or two from Isis and do a decent job with their AECs next time.

[Koveras Alvane]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

More importantly, if making Devices were really cheap and simple, then why the heck does the redshirts all gets pathetic standard issue staves, with no cartridge system or advanced AI?

I really, really didn't want to enter any discussion like this one but this question piqued my interest. Basically, the problem is logistics IMO. Even though making a Device may be cheap and simple, you also have to maintenance them and replace them if they get destroyed. It's the same reason why in real life, companies don't outfit all their personnel with state-of-the-art computers unless they really need them. ^^ Instead, new models are being tested and rolled out in multiyear cycles, because sufficient number of them must be produced, their users and maintenance technicians schooled in their new features, etc. It all takes time and that's why most baseline TSAB grunts get their grandfather's staves passed down to them. ^^ IIRC the Aces high-end Devices require a small cohort of full-time technicians like Shari and Mariel to maintenance them. That would be unfeasible for Ground Forces at large, however, since they have to deal with thousands of maintenance incidents every day. It is ecomically efficient to invest heavily into basic equipment so simple-stupid that it just doesn't have any breaking points and if it does, they can just replace them without much ado.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

More importantly, if making Devices were really cheap and simple, then why the heck does the redshirts all gets pathetic standard issue staves, with no cartridge system or advanced AI?

Because cartridges are risky, and according to booklets few people in the TSAB trust AI (Terminator fear).

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Because cartridges are risky, and according to booklets few people in the TSAB trust AI (Terminator fear).

The reason for cartridges make sense, it require special training and a fully developed body to use those without consequences. But the fear of AI's sounds pretty dumb in this universe, they can't ignore the big amount of success this technologyhas achieved. Most AEC's didn't have advanced AI tough, but at least the Fortress Mode is apparently tuned with Raising Heart to help with the controls.

[Mirron]

And Storage Devices are much better at processing spells faster. The advanced intelligence is useful when you're the only one, or one of a small group, but when you're part of a large group like the army seems to be, a Storage Device helps you put out your spells faster, which seems to be much more useful.

Introducing an AI slows down the spells, or at least inhibits some of the things Storage Devices are good at.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

The reason for cartridges make sense, it require special training and a fully developed body to use those without consequences. But the fear of AI's sounds pretty dumb in this universe, they can't ignore the big amount of success this technologyhas achieved. Most AEC's didn't have advanced AI tough, but at least the Fortress Mode is apparently tuned with Raising Heart to help with the controls.

The fear of the AIs is because AIs can take control, as we saw with Subaru after she was knocked out. And with RH in the movie, from what I've heard. Lots of people don't like not being in control of their own actions.

Just ask Ginga. :V

[Keroko]

That, and success of a technology in the hands of another doesn't mean your own unease is gone. I can acknowledge the success of construction cranes, but I still won't climb one unless you put a gun to my head.

[NorthernFallout]

Now I'm thinking of the Geth. "Organics fear us. We wish to understand, not incite.”

Suddenly, redshirts are issued new Devices that merges with their nervous system, and subsequently removes their organic tissue until only a dead husk of artificial intelligence remains. The politicians go "WE TOLD YOU SO" and bans AIs forever. Now they only exist on the black market and the Devices we so love are doomed to a state of a dumb-smart state.