[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Levani]

GreyZone, I didn't know you were into Umineko fandom too! Awesome...

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

I'm continually surprised by how much more sense the ep 8 manga makes than the VN.

Yes, it puts me in a dilemma each time someone asks me from where he should start his Umineko experience.
I'm pretty firm in 'not by the anime!' but then I start with well the VN Ep 4 is better but the manga Ep 8 is better and people is 'you aren't asking me to jump between the two are you?'

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Hey, zombies are possible, as long as you accept the witch. Beatrice can raise zombies and have them commit murders for her any time.

LOL Well, but the whole purpose wasn't denying her?

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

I'm probably one of the few people who still like the anime. As an adaptation of Umineko, it really is deeply flawed in terms of fully conveying characterisation and the mysteries, but I find it an enjoyable series nonetheless.

Well... it's not outright horrible but I remember when I saw it the first time (I saw it before watching the VN) it left me pretty cold. And when I rewatched it efter reading the VN I found it severely lacking.
Honestly I'm not fond of the manga version of Ep 1 either but compared to the anime version that one is a good transposition even if the art style at the time was up to debate and it still cut a lot (the adults' characterizations are pretty brushed over). It however kept all the elements to make the game solvable, possibly gave extra hints and it mostly didn't go against the characterizations set by the VN (even if here and there due to changes in the plot for shortening purposes the characters didn't exactly act as in the VN).
The anime mage games unsolvable, characterizations often absent or even different from the VN and overall cut a lot of important parts.
The opening was awesome though.

[Mali]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

No, EP1 was like that in the VN as well. Battler listed the people he saw in the shed and in EP4 Beato said in red:

Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!

and since the corpses Battler saw where not in a condition where you could say "they pretend to be dead, actually they still live!" there is no way around it: She was dead and could not have commited murders later on.

This red truth is a good argument. The anime isn't canon, isn't it?
But I would note the dim scene and Battler's comparison with "death" in TV. I'm not sure whether Battler trust in Nanjo's words or it's from his own mind to call them corpses. To me his thought were very general because Krauss' face was eventually being different from what he saw.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Anyway in the VN Battler stated he saw 5 corpses and told us who were the owners of said corpses.

I think he stated "several". Where was the point that he saw exactly 5 corpses?

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Mali

This red truth is a good argument. The anime isn't canon, isn't it?
But I would note the dim scene and Battler's comparison with "death" in TV. I'm not sure whether Battler trust in Nanjo's words or it's from his own mind to call them corpses. To me his thought were very general because Krauss' face was eventually being different from what he saw.

Well since the face are all heavy disfigured we don't really need Nanjo to say they're death.
The red truth wasn't in the anime but in the VN.
The anime is generally not considered a good source because in its rush to compress the story messed up some facts so that it becomes impossible to perform some tricks without magic.

Originally Posted by Mali

I think he stated "several". Where was the point that he saw exactly 5 corpses?

He names all the corpses he could see (Rudolf, Kyrie, Krauss, Rosa, Gohda) then wonders if there's more. At this point it turns out that Hideyoshi and Kanon had found Shannon's body but Battler (and George and likely Jessica, Natsuhi and Eva) can't see it in fact George asks if the corpse they've found is Shannon's.

[Leslie Chow]

Hi, I'm a new member and I just registered this morning. I found the link to this forum in my bookmarks and I remembered that I was following the translations of the manga back then in this website.

It's been a while since I've come around finishing Umineko and after re-reading it again I decided to join this forum discussion, since the series is something I found very interesting to discuss about especially with the adaptation of EP8.

So anyways, now that it is out of the way, I used google translate to see the additional changes to the EP8 adaptation in Japanese wikipedia and it said that the connection to Umineko and Higurashi series would be clarified. But hasn't it already been established in EP1 that Higurashi is a novel series in the Umineko-verse?

In the anime, Higurashi is a TV series that Maria watches and in the manga, there is also a TV series featuring Bernkastel as a character. I am beginning to think that the meta-world doesn't even exist in Umineko series. I mean like in the new Confession of the Golden Witch, Sayo apparently talks to Lambdadelta, a character who may or may not be part of Higurashi-verse. I remember seeing in the manga that there is a drawing of Bernkastel (supposed character in a TV series) with Lambdadelta in Maria's book. And isn't Sayo the only one in the series who draws fictional characters? Does this mean that everything meta-fictional is just in a character's head? If so, then how come in the future world, Okonogi and Amakusa (Skylark 13) characters in Higurashi are characters in Umineko? Does this mean that everything in the future could be dismissed as fictional as well?

I would like to hear your thoughts on this and hopefully I was eloquent enough, since I am bad at expressing myself.

[Mali]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Well since the face are all heavy disfigured we don't really need Nanjo to say they're death.
The red truth wasn't in the anime but in the VN.
The anime is generally not considered a good source because in its rush to compress the story messed up some facts so that it becomes impossible to perform some tricks without magic.



He names all the corpses he could see (Rudolf, Kyrie, Krauss, Rosa, Gohda) then wonders if there's more. At this point it turns out that Hideyoshi and Kanon had found Shannon's body but Battler (and George and likely Jessica, Natsuhi and Eva) can't see it in fact George asks if the corpse they've found is Shannon's.

Is the anime indirectly directed by Ryu (sorry I don't know)?

Regarding the names of corpses and the red: It's stupid to say, but who said just Battler's view is the guaranteed one?
Edit:I would add fake-death-drugs,too.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Mali

Is the anime indirectly directed by Ryu (sorry I don't know)?

I doubt it, not only because the anime is a mess but because it's rather uncommon and Ryukishi was already busy enough. Anyway it'll be nice if he'll have some official confirmation.

Originally Posted by Mali

Regarding the names of corpses and the red: It's stupid to say, but who said just Battler's view is the guaranteed one?
Edit:I would add fake-death-drugs,too.

Knox. Battler is the detective for ep 1. He can't say falsehood. If he say he viewed Rosa's corpse that corpse is Rosa's. Besides the corpses' identity was confirmed by red as Battler didn't know he had detective's privileges.
All this is discussed in the reverse also in Ep 5 when it said that because Battler wasn't the detective he could claim he saw Kinzo or corpses and he didn't and in ep 5 & 6 were is explained how Erika had checked the bodies in Ep 5, since she was the detective, she would have been made sure if they were corpses or not and how in ep 6 she has to kill them personally because, since she's not the detective, she can't be sure they're dead while if she had been she would have known with certain if they were or not.

[Mali]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Knox. Battler is the detective for ep 1. He can't say falsehood. If he say he viewed Rosa's corpse that corpse is Rosa's. Besides the corpses' identity was confirmed by red as Battler didn't know he had detective's privileges.
All this is discussed in the reverse also in Ep 5 when it said that because Battler wasn't the detective he could claim he saw Kinzo or corpses and he didn't and in ep 5 & 6 were is explained how Erika had checked the bodies in Ep 5, since she was the detective, she would have been made sure if they were corpses or not and how in ep 6 she has to kill them personally because, since she's not the detective, she can't be sure they're dead while if she had been she would have known with certain if they were or not.

Hold it. My problem is not how Battler look on bodies. It's the way he describe it.

• His first statement is like: no nose, no eyes, broken jaw, missing teeth +can't count
  on one hand (all were brought under one hat)
• 2nd: no faces(Rudolph,Kyrie)
• 3rd: Krauss' half face
• 4th: "All six of the bodies had had their faces noticeably destroyed." (all again)

Also it was showed in ep2 that Battler is just guessing and first impressions instead having a final conclusion. It's not like that Battler can see through every farce.

extra food for thought: Battler lied about the charm. Once a liar, always a liar. Battler lied about the corpses. Battler culprit theory. Nnngh

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Mali

Hold it. My problem is not how Battler look on bodies. It's the way he describe it.

• His first statement is like: no nose, no eyes, broken jaw, missing teeth +can't count
  on one hand (all were brought under one hat)
• 2nd: no faces(Rudolph,Kyrie)
• 3rd: Krauss' half face
• 4th: "All six of the bodies had had their faces noticeably destroyed." (all again)

Also it was showed in ep2 that Battler is just guessing and first impressions instead having a final conclusion. It's not like that Battler can see through every farce.

extra food for thought: Battler lied about the charm. Once a liar, always a liar. Battler lied about the corpses. Battler culprit theory. Nnngh

I love the Battler culprit theory but I hope you're joking if you think it can work here. It was stated in red Battler is the detective and therefore not the culprit.

Also, just to clear up the lying thing:

In a rather famous mystery Hercule Poirot found a tissue in a compromising place. He had no idea of who was the owner so he would go to all the suspected ladies and tell them 'miss/madam, you just dropped this' to see if the miss/madam would admit the tissue was her own.

This is only one of the many, many times Poirot lied to the people he suspected being involved in a crime.

The point isn't the detective can't lie, he can lie as many times as he wants to the characters. The point is he must not deceive the reader so he can at best withold confessing the truth for a little while but in the end he must confess it to the readers (the characters might end up never knowing about it). Ultimately Battler told Maria and us readers the truth about his lie.

Now for Battler's exact sentence:

......That old bastard and Kyrie-san. ...Krauss oji-san and Rosa oba-san. ......Beyond that, ...Gohda-san and, ...there's still more of them? How many people died.........You're fucking kidding me! I can't even count them on one hand!

Battler is listing the bodies he's seeing. Rudolf, Kyrie, Krauss, Rosa and Gohda. They're five. The 'there's still more of them?' is a suspicion. Later the dialogue will goes on like this:

"............Father............the ones dea-, .........lying over there are Krauss oji-san, Rudolf oji-san, Kyrie oba-san and, Rosa oba-san, Gohda-san, ...............five people...?"
"............No. ......There are six people. ......There's, ...one more person..."
The body that Hideyoshi was looking down on now was hidden in the shadow of a mountain of random objects, in a blind spot to George, who stood by the entrance.
...So George couldn't tell , ...whose body it was......

Battler has likely noticed that Hideyoshi and Kanon had acted like there was an extra body but he's so grief stricken he hadn't guessed who the owner could be. George also has noticed but he's in denial because he has guessed who the owner could be.
George can't see the body though and so can't Battler because

Disregarding age and appearance, ......I fell to my knees, clinging to Aniki's waist and sobbing.

Ergo not only Battler was next to George but since he was on his knees he was in a lower position compared to George and therefore with a worse chance to see what Hideyoshi was 'seeing'.

Battler saw 5 corpses and figured there were more from here is statement he couldn't count them on one hand.

From the damage inflicted to the bodies it's hard to think it's just make up.
One matter would be if they were covered in blood but here the culprit did a little more than this.

"their faces had been plowed"...!
Their faces were smashed, forced into an expression that a normal person couldn't make even after death. ...I couldn't tell where the eyes or the noses were, but I could find their mouths...because they were gaping wide, the ridges of their teeth exposed! But their front teeth were missing, and even the cheek that should have covered that was all torn up and exposed!

As he's the detective and he won't tell us that he was making up his description we've to believe he saw this. And as the detective can tell if a person is dead or not when checking its status we can't even assume that despite the damage Rosa was still alive and went around blindly killing everyone as an act of revenge because someone plowed her face.

Also Eva decided to seal the crime scene and the shutter was locked from the outside with anew lock, basically closing faceless Rosa inside.

Battler can't see through every farce and, in fact, he didn't realize there wasn't a corpse at Hideyoshi's feet but he told us what he saw and among what he saw there was Rosa's faceless corpse.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

Hi, I'm a new member and I just registered this morning. I found the link to this forum in my bookmarks and I remembered that I was following the translations of the manga back then in this website.

It's been a while since I've come around finishing Umineko and after re-reading it again I decided to join this forum discussion, since the series is something I found very interesting to discuss about especially with the adaptation of EP8.

So anyways, now that it is out of the way, I used google translate to see the additional changes to the EP8 adaptation in Japanese wikipedia and it said that the connection to Umineko and Higurashi series would be clarified. But hasn't it already been established in EP1 that Higurashi is a novel series in the Umineko-verse?

In the anime, Higurashi is a TV series that Maria watches and in the manga, there is also a TV series featuring Bernkastel as a character. I am beginning to think that the meta-world doesn't even exist in Umineko series. I mean like in the new Confession of the Golden Witch, Sayo apparently talks to Lambdadelta, a character who may or may not be part of Higurashi-verse. I remember seeing in the manga that there is a drawing of Bernkastel (supposed character in a TV series) with Lambdadelta in Maria's book. And isn't Sayo the only one in the series who draws fictional characters? Does this mean that everything meta-fictional is just in a character's head? If so, then how come in the future world, Okonogi and Amakusa (Skylark 13) characters in Higurashi are characters in Umineko? Does this mean that everything in the future could be dismissed as fictional as well?

I would like to hear your thoughts on this and hopefully I was eloquent enough, since I am bad at expressing myself.

Sorry, I missed your message at my first check. Welcome aboard!
Higurashi is a novel in the Umineko world but in the Umineko World novels are nothing else but fragments, games, worlds if you like, same as the 8 games of Umineko.
To make things extremely simple Featherine was the author of Higurashi.
Bern was Featherine's piece in Higurashi with the role of being Rika and had to find its way out through it as Featherine couldn't find a way out for her due to a logic error in the story. Due to Bern managing to miracolously find it she's the witch of miracles. I think the idea is that despite being a piece Bern had to fight as if she were the gamemaster (in a way it's similar to how Bern abandoned Erika and forced her to fight on her own).
Lambda was the one she bestowed her power of certainty upon Takano (or possibly the witch born by Takano) and likely the adversary in the game. Bern not only managed to solve the logic error but to beat Lambda.

The whole thing is a bit vague so I might have messed up something but losely that's the connection.

[Leslie Chow]

Thanks for your reply and warm welcome. But yeah I kind of get the part where the novels are treated as parallel worlds (or fragments) and that Bern was Rika in a sense (this was alluded to in EP6 more explicit in the manga ver. with Hanyuu as the Game Master). I remember reading from somewhere that there is the theory that Takano played the human side and Rika played the magic side and that in Matsuribayashi-hen was the solution to the logic error and ended with the magic side winning. Hell there was even that scene where Akasaka punched a van and tumbled over, a feat which can NEVER be achieved even with 5 years worth of full-time training, and Hanyuu, an alien that is supposed to be long dead is ALIVE.

But anyways back on my previous topic, it's still kinda hard to believe that the world of 1998 is the real world. Ange dying then coming back to life again, is IMPOSSIBLE without MAGIC. Now we could make the theory that when Ange died, she was sent to purgatory. In EP1 Tea Party of the VN, the meta-world (Golden Land) was called Purgatorio and we could make the argument that it is indeed purgatory, since Beatrice and Erika said in EP8 manga that the Golden Land is the land of death. (I think Beatrice and Erika know this because they're both dead anyway by 1998). Then when she made the choice in the end she was sent back alive to probably another timeline where she overtook the body of that Ange (effectively 'killing' that timeline's Ange) similarly to how Rika overtook the body of the Rika in Saikoroshi-hen, which doesn't contradict the red that "Ange definitely dies in 1998". But here's the problem, the existence of Okonogi and Amakusa, who are supposedly fictional characters from the novel series Higurashi, which in itself is a work of fiction within Umineko. So how are these people in the real world (if 1998 is the real world) if they are merely characters created by Featherine? And if this is purgatory, how was Ange able to get there before she killed herself? Is all of this in her head? Or is there some sort of connection to a higher plane of existence with one's imagination?

On another topic, I noticed something very interesting after re-watching the anime (yeah I know Deen sucks, but I sort of want to get the full story by comparing all adaptations, rather than limiting myself to just the VN and the manga). But anyways Battler was able to say in red that "Battler Ushiromiya was born from Asumu Ushiromiya", which I find to be a contradiction since that would mean that Battler literally came out of Asumu's you-know-what. But what if Asumu's son was also named Battler? If this is the case, then whatever Bernkastel says about Battler being dead in red, it wouldn't be a contradiction, since the statement could apply to the stillborn Battler, rather than the Battler we know, making the magic ending possible. However I still think that the possibility of the ending and the future world being a fantasy still exist due to Okonogi and Amakusa's presence in 1998 and the fact that Battler was out of character when he left the island without screaming (hopefully this could be explained after the manga's run).

Also, the part in EP7 when Bernkastel said "This game will not have a happy ending", might've applied to her game, but the narration had purple text when Ange made her choice (a rule that Bernkastel made), which led me to believe that Bernkastel may have referred to EP8. It may even be possible that Ange fought a piece Bernkastel rather than the actual Game Master, but a piece with Game Master privileges nonetheless during EP8, given the fact that after Bernkastel was defeated the narration of the story continued with purple text. But yeah, the red statement is also an issue in regards to the magic end. However, if we turn this statement around, a bad ending is sort of one-sided to say the least. Bernkastel may have unknowingly stated a truth that applied to her having a bad ending rather than the protagonists. Or we could interpret Ange leaving the Golden Land as a sad ending since she is leaving her relatives behind by the end of the game, which doesn't necessarily dictates her life having a bad end.

Before I finish this post, I would like to say that once the manga finishes its run I think the flame war between Rosatrice and Sayotrice should be laid to rest eventually by doing a critical analysis of the VN, manga and anime and comparing which one outweighs the other, since I get the feeling that this won't end anytime soon. Yes, I know a lot of people hate this theory and a lot of its supporters are pretentious fanboys with some going as far as making FALSE red truths (e.g. Lambda stating in ??? EP4 that "The culprit is one of those people who arrived on Rokkenjima on boat". But despite this, I think its a theory that needs to be analysed and compared to Sayotrice regardless, since it is almost perfect in my opinion. I get the feeling that Ryukishi had done one of four things concerning Rosatrice:

- He screwed up his story (maybe the guy who died in the 07th expansion was thinking of making the Rosatrice the solution, whereas Ryukishi did not and wanted a twist similar to Higurashi, where the solution couldn't be found in Question Arcs alone, contrary to what Willard H. Wright said in EP7 about its solvability).

- He deliberately made statements that could overturn the whole story to spark discussion and debate, thus there really is no solution.

- There is a solution to all games and it is either Rosatrice or Sayotrice (aside from the Rokkenjima Massacre carried out by Rudolf and Kyrie, which is generally accepted to be the truth behind the incident)

- Rosatrice may be an accidental solution that was made without any contradictions to anything established in the story.

Hopefully this didn't bore anyone who had to read this whole post and sorry if this is a bit too long.

[AuraTwilight]

But anyways back on my previous topic, it's still kinda hard to believe that the world of 1998 is the real world.

Who says it is? The 1998 depicted in EP4 could be another Fragment.

So how are these people in the real world (if 1998 is the real world) if they are merely characters created by Featherine? And if this is purgatory, how was Ange able to get there before she killed herself? Is all of this in her head? Or is there some sort of connection to a higher plane of existence with one's imagination?

Creator Witches like Featherine are basically Gods. They create universes on a whim like it ain't no thing, and they can do it all by themselves with no help from anyone.

Context seems to imply that rather than a mere plane of the dead, the Meta-World is a sort of astral space of thought and imagination where concepts have a literal existence. I choose to interpret EP8's ending as Ange standing on the ledge, and everything else involving Ange (her EP4 journey, her experiences in the Meta-world, etc) were like a spirit quest. She never truly left that moment until she finished her spiritual journey and could accept what happened.

But anyways Battler was able to say in red that "Battler Ushiromiya was born from Asumu Ushiromiya", which I find to be a contradiction since that would mean that Battler literally came out of Asumu's you-know-what. But what if Asumu's son was also named Battler? If this is the case, then whatever Bernkastel says about Battler being dead in red, it wouldn't be a contradiction, since the statement could apply to the stillborn Battler, rather than the Battler we know, making the magic ending possible. However I still think that the possibility of the ending and the future world being a fantasy still exist due to Okonogi and Amakusa's presence in 1998 and the fact that Battler was out of character when he left the island without screaming (hopefully this could be explained after the manga's run).

There's nothing magical about Okonogi's and Amakusa's existence, they can just be alternate universe counterparts. They're just fun cameos anyway.

Applying the stillbirth thing to Bern's EP8 end doesn't work, because she's describing a Battler who was killed by Beatrice.

Also, the part in EP7 when Bernkastel said "This game will not have a happy ending", might've applied to her game, but the narration had purple text when Ange made her choice (a rule that Bernkastel made), which led me to believe that Bernkastel may have referred to EP8. It may even be possible that Ange fought a piece Bernkastel rather than the actual Game Master, but a piece with Game Master privileges nonetheless during EP8, given the fact that after Bernkastel was defeated the narration of the story continued with purple text. But yeah, the red statement is also an issue in regards to the magic end. However, if we turn this statement around, a bad ending is sort of one-sided to say the least. Bernkastel may have unknowingly stated a truth that applied to her having a bad ending rather than the protagonists. Or we could interpret Ange leaving the Golden Land as a sad ending since she is leaving her relatives behind by the end of the game, which doesn't necessarily dictates her life having a bad end.

It was probably just referring to the game Bern had on the board. She has a habit of making misleading Reds this way.

Before I finish this post, I would like to say that once the manga finishes its run I think the flame war between Rosatrice and Sayotrice should be laid to rest eventually by doing a critical analysis of the VN, manga and anime and comparing which one outweighs the other, since I get the feeling that this won't end anytime soon. Yes, I know a lot of people hate this theory and a lot of its supporters are pretentious fanboys with some going as far as making FALSE red truths (e.g. Lambda stating in ??? EP4 that "The culprit is one of those people who arrived on Rokkenjima on boat". But despite this, I think its a theory that needs to be analysed and compared to Sayotrice regardless, since it is almost perfect in my opinion. I get the feeling that Ryukishi had done one of four things concerning Rosatrice:

The thing is, Rosatrice really has no legs to stand on at all. Jessitrice makes more sense, if anything. Rosatrice only gained traction because people didn't want to accept Sayotrice, not because the facts legitimately support it. It's literally impossible for Rosatrice to be the culprit in EP1 OR EP2...or EP3...or EP4...

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

But anyways back on my previous topic, it's still kinda hard to believe that the world of 1998 is the real world. Ange dying then coming back to life again, is IMPOSSIBLE without MAGIC.

Actually the trick liest in the fact that part of 1998 is also a series of tales of some sort.

The real world, Umineko fans call it Prime, doesn't know her fate. In 1998, after Eva's death Ange disappears.
Umineko will teach you that Ange being death might refer to her body but not necessarily to just it.
Ushiromiya Battler died only means he technically survived but completely lost his memory and became a new person, Hachijo Tohya.

So the red declaring that Ange died might mean she has destroyed her previous identity and had turned into another person, Kotobuki Yukari, who has not only a different name but also a different mind setting... while Ushiromiya Ange might have been assumed dead and even declared as such.
(Ryukishi confirmed the ending he considered true is the magic one... and even in the manga Ange chose this one)

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

But here's the problem, the existence of Okonogi and Amakusa, who are supposedly fictional characters from the novel series Higurashi, which in itself is a work of fiction within Umineko. So how are these people in the real world (if 1998 is the real world) if they are merely characters created by Featherine?

Characters created by Featherine might be real people or based on real people. After all Beatrice's not magic pieces were all real people.
On the other side it's also possible that Amakusa was a completely fictional character who only coincidentally looked like Skylark 13. After all, if the confirmed truth about Ange is that she became Yukari she never travelled to Rokkenjima with Amakusa and got killed there (Ep 4), nor met Hachijo (Ep 6) or ended up killing Amakusa (trick ending).
The most of the role Amakusa had in the magic ending is that he plays her driver. His look and his resemblance with Skylark 13 might be pure speculation.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

But anyways Battler was able to say in red that "Battler Ushiromiya was born from Asumu Ushiromiya", which I find to be a contradiction since that would mean that Battler literally came out of Asumu's you-know-what. But what if Asumu's son was also named Battler?

Yes, the answer is that Asumu's child was meant to be called Battler. Kinzo chose the name, likely beforehand so Asumu likely knew her child was going to be called Battler. That's why an Ushiromiya Battler was born from Asumu. Only he was dead and was buried under another name as Kyrie's child.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

If this is the case, then whatever Bernkastel says about Battler being dead in red, it wouldn't be a contradiction, since the statement could apply to the stillborn Battler, rather than the Battler we know, making the magic ending possible.

While this might work in theory, considering how Bern is surprised by the fact that Battler doesn't die when she says so (Bern is aware of the truth about Battler) likely when she said that red she meant the Battler we know, not a general Battler.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

However I still think that the possibility of the ending and the future world being a fantasy still exist due to Okonogi and Amakusa's presence in 1998 and the fact that Battler was out of character when he left the island without screaming (hopefully this could be explained after the manga's run).

The part in which Battler left with Beatrice is partly a fantasy. At best he could have left with Sayo, not with Beatrice. And don't forget that in that scene we see that Battler managed to reach the sinking Beatrice and drowned with her and the two could even hear each other voice underwater.
So likely that scene is an interpretation of what had happened... a little like when Beatrice said that the first Beatrice died but Kinzo trapped her soul into a memoryless homuncolous he created when in truth it wasn't an homuncolous but the child he had with Beatrice.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

Also, the part in EP7 when Bernkastel said "This game will not have a happy ending", might've applied to her game, but the narration had purple text when Ange made her choice (a rule that Bernkastel made), which led me to believe that Bernkastel may have referred to EP8. It may even be possible that Ange fought a piece Bernkastel rather than the actual Game Master, but a piece with Game Master privileges nonetheless during EP8, given the fact that after Bernkastel was defeated the narration of the story continued with purple text. But yeah, the red statement is also an issue in regards to the magic end. However, if we turn this statement around, a bad ending is sort of one-sided to say the least. Bernkastel may have unknowingly stated a truth that applied to her having a bad ending rather than the protagonists. Or we could interpret Ange leaving the Golden Land as a sad ending since she is leaving her relatives behind by the end of the game, which doesn't necessarily dictates her life having a bad end.

In game 8 the whole happy ending thing is developed by Lion.
The expected happy ending, the happy ending Ange was hoping for, was of everyone surviving and returning home by Ange. This happy ending will never become true.
However Lion claims they'll get a happy ending just the same, as it depends on the observer what constitutes a happy ending. Their happy ending will be that Ange will manage to chose to live and build a future for herself.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

Before I finish this post, I would like to say that once the manga finishes its run I think the flame war between Rosatrice and Sayotrice should be laid to rest eventually by doing a critical analysis of the VN, manga and anime and comparing which one outweighs the other, since I get the feeling that this won't end anytime soon. Yes, I know a lot of people hate this theory and a lot of its supporters are pretentious fanboys with some going as far as making FALSE red truths (e.g. Lambda stating in ??? EP4 that "The culprit is one of those people who arrived on Rokkenjima on boat". But despite this, I think its a theory that needs to be analysed and compared to Sayotrice regardless, since it is almost perfect in my opinion. I get the feeling that Ryukishi had done one of four things concerning Rosatrice:

- He screwed up his story (maybe the guy who died in the 07th expansion was thinking of making the Rosatrice the solution, whereas Ryukishi did not and wanted a twist similar to Higurashi, where the solution couldn't be found in Question Arcs alone, contrary to what Willard H. Wright said in EP7 about its solvability).

- He deliberately made statements that could overturn the whole story to spark discussion and debate, thus there really is no solution.

- There is a solution to all games and it is either Rosatrice or Sayotrice (aside from the Rokkenjima Massacre carried out by Rudolf and Kyrie, which is generally accepted to be the truth behind the incident)

- Rosatrice may be an accidental solution that was made without any contradictions to anything established in the story.

Hopefully this didn't bore anyone who had to read this whole post and sorry if this is a bit too long.

Ryukishi declared that the manga is giving out the intended solution, ergo Sayotrice. It's not the first time but as the last time he was asked it in the most direct way possible he stated that:

In an interview Ryukishi gave his final answer on the manga.

APGNation: The character of Sayo Yasuda in Umineko is interesting. What were your thoughts in Sayo’s creation? Additionally, what were your thoughts on her expansion in the Umineko manga?

Ryukishi07: The secret of the character of Sayo is the core of Umineko’s story, so her inner workings and development were designed carefully and with the utmost complexity.

In the original version, in order to leave room for imagination for the reader to solve the mystery, I chose not to draw Sayo’s secrets in great detail (of course, it’s still possible to grasp, but I didn’t show things in a way where everyone would get it.)

With the manga version of Umineko, however, we considered the work to be a “period” to the “sentence” that is the world of Umineko.

Because of this, when I met with Natsumi-sensei [Kei Natsumi, the artist of the manga adaptation of Umineko’s eighth episode], I asked her to show all the secrets in a way that can easily be understood by anyone.

Thus, all of the episode of Sayo that appeared in the EP8 manga is the official answer to the world of Umineko.

By no means is the manga version a individual interpretation. It is an official answer from me, Ryukishi07.

Full interview here

Of course, Umineko isn't perfect and the VN wasn't that binding so that more truths could cohexist. It's the game of the cheese in Ep 6.
The guy who wrote the riddle had an intended answer in mind, but since Maria didn't give enough conditions (the shape of the cheese wasn't mentioned, only drawn) Battler and Erika could work out a different answer... which technically is right only as long as the draw of the shape isn't revealed.

By having the manga reveal the truth is as if Ryukishi is showing us the shape of the cheese or better giving us more red truth. The more red truth he adds the less Rosatrice works.

So even if I'm all for alternative solutions and analysing them (and I'm the first to say Ryukishi's mystery isn't perfect and there are holes here and there) Rosatrice clearly was never the planned solution for Ryukishi.
It's Ryukishi the one in charge of the plot so even though likely the other members give suggestions, opinions and what else, none of them was in charge of deciding the culprit. So BT's death didn't really change who was the culprit and I seem to remember things worked in such a way that Ryukishi wrote and BT would read and then give his input (please, if I'm remembering wrong can someone correct me?) so as to fix mistakes, but not dictate the plot which was already set on making Sayo the culprit.

Therefore it's not that I'm not open to discussion... it's just that we've already an official answer, Sayotrice. The fact that it's possible to squeeze Rosatrice as an answer in the VN (not in the manga) is likely coincidental, partly unplanned (Ryukishi wanted the discussion to continue but I don't think he had in mind Rosatrice as an alternative answer... by ep 7 of the VN is pretty clear that Sayotrice is the answer he's pushing for so I guess he wanted people to discuss on how Sayo could carry on the murders not on who else could), partly to blame to mistakes/choices he made and it's getting denied more and more.

Also even if Witch Hunt made a WONDERFUL work with their translation, is still a translation and meaning of some things might get lost during it so as to create the illusion that there's room for Rosatrice. I remember people making theories based on the translation who left open certain options and people denying them by using the Japanese quotes which directly denied theories that seemed possible with just the English version at hand.

And don't worry about long posts. As you can see I tend to make long post as well!
I think the more people discuss the funnier it is. This place is way too quiet.

[Mali]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

There's nothing magical about Okonogi's and Amakusa's existence, they can just be alternate universe counterparts. They're just fun cameos anyway.

I didn't know Amakusa is a cameo character. Where did he appeared? I thought he looked like a famouse Japanese pop singer.

Originally Posted by jjblue

I love the Battler culprit theory but I hope you're joking if you think it can work here. It was stated in red Battler is the detective and therefore not the culprit.

Also, just to clear up the lying thing:

In a rather famous mystery Hercule Poirot found a tissue in a compromising place. He had no idea of who was the owner so he would go to all the suspected ladies and tell them 'miss/madam, you just dropped this' to see if the miss/madam would admit the tissue was her own.

This is only one of the many, many times Poirot lied to the people he suspected being involved in a crime.

The point isn't the detective can't lie, he can lie as many times as he wants to the characters. The point is he must not deceive the reader so he can at best withold confessing the truth for a little while but in the end he must confess it to the readers (the characters might end up never knowing about it). Ultimately Battler told Maria and us readers the truth about his lie.

Oh is it the 3rd rate mysery Erika spoke of?
Battler made himself untrustworthy in emotional states many times like sympethising with Jessica in avanging or crying about Kanon' death in the boiler room. It's possible to push the role of the detective on the other Battler.

Ergo not only Battler was next to George but since he was on his knees he was in a lower position compared to George and therefore with a worse chance to see what Hideyoshi was 'seeing'.

Did George entered the garden shed? Eva was holding him. Battler entered and kneed in front of his parents.

[Lombardest]

I just saw the scans of the EP8 Interlude. A little suspicion arose when Ikuko mentioned that she found the Confession bottle near the place where she found him, and seeing the big focus the page had on the bottle when he started to remember... what if the bottle arrived with him?

It's already one hell of a coincidence that amongst all people that would save him Ikuko was the one -- almost unnatural, reinforced by the mystical aura she seems to emmanate -- . But though the story is filled with events that could be considered miracles even if it didn't end that happily, it sure is veeeery fortunate that Confession was not amongst the endless amount of lost bottles... And even the miracles were all influenced by human action. Though Ikuko only found the bottle much much later, she had not searched the shore since he moved to the road before collapsing, maybe if she had done it from the beginning the bottle would have been there, and maybe Tohya recognized it when he saw it.

--- Something else reinforced this idea for a moment, the flashback when Sayo is holding what seemed a box or a pile of books, but the page showed it was the second as a remainder of the world they shared.

[AuraTwilight]

I didn't know Amakusa is a cameo character. Where did he appeared? I thought he looked like a famouse Japanese pop singer.

Higurashi.

[Leslie Chow]

Characters created by Featherine might be real people or based on real people. After all Beatrice's not magic pieces were all real people.
On the other side it's also possible that Amakusa was a completely fictional character who only coincidentally looked like Skylark 13. After all, if the confirmed truth about Ange is that she became Yukari she never travelled to Rokkenjima with Amakusa and got killed there (Ep 4), nor met Hachijo (Ep 6) or ended up killing Amakusa (trick ending).
The most of the role Amakusa had in the magic ending is that he plays her driver. His look and his resemblance with Skylark 13 might be pure speculation.

Actually after re-reading EP1, Battler, in his inner monologue referred to Higurashi as a novel, which suggests that it is a published work. This means that the novel SHOULD have been published sometime in the 80s in-universe, before the Rokken Island massacre. If I remember correctly Ikuko/Tohya/Featherine never had her novels published for public eyes to see and only kept manuscripts never having it published, until Battler/Tohya came into her life (correct me if I am wrong).

But yeah, after reading Ryukishi's latest interview, I really do hope that he explains the full nature of the meta-world (if the manga is as he claims it to be the "period" to the "sentence" that is the world of Umineko), since we can only come up with theories concerning it which may or may not be correct. At most we can only observe trends about it, but it kinda gets confusing and hard to comprehend in the Chiru arc.

Also, looking at the perspective of a Rosatrice fan, I can't help but find some more ammunition for them to make arguments based on this interview. Like I could already see them say something like "See, Ryukishi is lying again, he only said the 'official answer' not the 'actual, TRUE answer'" or "Oh! I knew it! He did say it was a game between the author and the reader, just like KNM said!" or "He says Van Dine's Commandment is applicable, so the servant can't be the culprit!". But on the plus side, and I know this is a bit off topic, it was nice to see that Ryukishi has good taste when it comes to visual novels, but after looking at his twitter I have to say that he has bad taste in manga and anime.

Of course, Umineko isn't perfect and the VN wasn't that binding so that more truths could cohexist. It's the game of the cheese in Ep 6.
The guy who wrote the riddle had an intended answer in mind, but since Maria didn't give enough conditions (the shape of the cheese wasn't mentioned, only drawn) Battler and Erika could work out a different answer... which technically is right only as long as the draw of the shape isn't revealed.

By having the manga reveal the truth is as if Ryukishi is showing us the shape of the cheese or better giving us more red truth. The more red truth he adds the less Rosatrice works.

I like the analogy with the cheese having a different answer that could be considered correct, but not the intended answer, but I have to disagree with the part of the red truth making Rosatrice less plausible, since the new reds in EP8 doesn't make Rosatrice impossible, but since I haven't read ALL of the EP8 chapters, I might've missed a red or two so for anyone reading this feel free to correct me on this one. But I will admit that Rosatrice's biggest downfall may be the message bottle "Confession of the Golden Witch".

I am currently re-reading the question arcs (VN, Anime and Manga included) at the same time, with Knox, Van Dine, Rosatrice, Sayotrice, Red Truths (up to EP4 ??? ONLY), the fantasy scenes and Willard's Truths in mind (I just finished all first twilights, haven't reached second twilights yet), just so I could try and make sense of both theories by being unbiased about the solution(s). It would be interesting to see if Willard was right about what he said about the solvability of Umineko in which the reader only needs the four games to solve Beatrice's riddles. After I make sense of it all I plan on bashing both theories with the reds in the core arcs (EP8 manga included) and see if any of them can still stand on being plausible. The reason for this is that the reds in chiru get kinda screwy and misleading, to me at least. After that I might try and analyse other pieces of evidence throughout all 8 games to see if they fit both theories and maybe some plot holes that could potentially overturn one or both these theories.

Just in case someone says that it is impossible for Rosa to be the culprit in EP1, I'll make it clear. Battler in the VN did not observe and inspect Rosa's corpse, he was more focused on his parents. At most he only had a glance (stared while crying from a distance in the anime, which could blur a bit of what he is seeing) on the other corpses. Detective's authority only works if the detective did an inspection HIMSELF. In the anime, Rosa's face was not that messed up like in the manga and could have been easily be faked by wearing a mask. In the manga, the face looks more messed up to the readers, but Battler COULDN'T have seen Rosa's face, since Nanjo and some boxes were in the way and was covering Rosa's head.

The statement Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist! does not mean that necessarily mean that Rosa is certainly dead, it just says that there are no body doubles (e.g. like Takano's burnt corpse in Higurashi or a dummy) and that the corpses found in the shed are merely identified. The thing about corpses could be dismissed as being a similar case to that of in EP5, where all the victims of the first twilight are 'dead'. And here's a blue truth regarding this statement: It may be true that all corpses, no matter whose, would not lead to a mistaken autopsy, ......but it has never been said that there was a rule against something other than a corpse being called a corpse. It's from episode 5, but it is flexible enough to fit this case.

All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon! Survivors may have referred to Battler's group, the people listed in the end as having survived at the credits roll. If Rosatrice is to be believed, she isn't dead, so she doesn't have an alibi, but since she isn't listed as one of the survivors in the credits roll, she bypasses this. Likewise, if Sayotrice is to be believed, only Shannon and Kanon have alibis, not Sayo. Since he isn't listed as one of the survivors in the credits roll, he bypasses this.

In case someone says Van Dine doesn't work, it should for both theories. Ryukishi confirms this in the latest interview and Willard in the manga says so as well (EP8 Chapter 18). To address the thing about the love interest, I think it applies only to the detective. Battler more or less by the time of Umineko gave up on Shannon, so it doesn't count more or less. I think the thing with George proposing is just to establish that they are a couple, in the same manner that the siblings have their own spouses. By no means it is the focus of the mystery nor does it "bring a lovelorn couple to the hymeneal altar". BUT it is a focus BEFORE the mystery happens (eg Turn of the Golden Witch prologue and early chapters) and during the FANTASY scenes. If anything it serves as somewhat of a hint in the whole story of Umineko, in regards to the Whydunnit, but not the howdunnit.

At the end of the day, this whole Rosatrice vs Sayotrice debate is just like the debate found in the DBZ fandom. There is the debate that Tien is stronger than Krillin, which is evident in the whole series, but due to the author's words that Krillin is the strongest human, the fans are prevented from winning the argument that Tien is stronger than Krillin. Likewise, in the Umineko fandom, we the fans are prevented from winning the argument that Rosatrice is the truth, since we aren't the creators, we are just fans talking, debating and sharing thoughts and opinions. I think the only reason that the flame war started was because, compared to DBZ, Umineko is a very complex story and it just went downhill from there with fans going at each others throats throwing reds here and there, fans being dicks, fans using KNM as if it is the absolute truth, fans being ignorant, etc. Of course if we were to say that Ryukishi is lying then that's another topic for discussion, but as of the present time, I think that it would over complicate things than it already is.

P.S. I am having a hard time finding the scans for Willard's solutions in EP7 manga in the forum, can anyone send me a link to where I can find the scans? Thanks in advance. I have a theory in mind concerning All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!, since the snippet showed in Confession of the Golden Witch seems incomplete.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Mali

Oh is it the 3rd rate mysery Erika spoke of?

If you think Agatha Christie is a third rate mystery writer think twice. She's one of the world's best-selling novelist nicknamed Queen of Mystery.

Originally Posted by Mali

Battler made himself untrustworthy in emotional states many times like sympethising with Jessica in avanging or crying about Kanon' death in the boiler room. It's possible to push the role of the detective on the other Battler.

No, if you're playing by Umineko's rules. Dlanor, using Knox in Ep 5, made pretty clear that piece Battler was the detective for Ep 1-4.

Originally Posted by Mali

Did George entered the garden shed? Eva was holding him. Battler entered and kneed in front of his parents.

Disregarding age and appearance, ......I fell to my knees, clinging to Aniki's waist and sobbing.

In the VN it's never said Battler entered, just that he approached the entrance. He got an eyefull same as Jessica who kept screaming despite having been caught by Natsuhi. It's never said Battler kneed in front of his parents. He fell to his knees and hugged George's waist. Eva evidently didn't keep holding George which would have been rather pointless as it would be even harder for her to block his view than for Natsuhi block Jessica's view.
Regardless of George being just in or just out of the shed I'll say in order for Battler to hug him he must have been pretty close.
Theorizing is fine but maybe you should check facts first.
I can't even tell anymore if you're serious in tossing your theories or joking as they go crash against the rules and the facts we were given.

Originally Posted by Lombardest

I just saw the scans of the EP8 Interlude. A little suspicion arose when Ikuko mentioned that she found the Confession bottle near the place where she found him, and seeing the big focus the page had on the bottle when he started to remember... what if the bottle arrived with him?

It's already one hell of a coincidence that amongst all people that would save him Ikuko was the one -- almost unnatural, reinforced by the mystical aura she seems to emmanate -- . But though the story is filled with events that could be considered miracles even if it didn't end that happily, it sure is veeeery fortunate that Confession was not amongst the endless amount of lost bottles... And even the miracles were all influenced by human action. Though Ikuko only found the bottle much much later, she had not searched the shore since he moved to the road before collapsing, maybe if she had done it from the beginning the bottle would have been there, and maybe Tohya recognized it when he saw it.

--- Something else reinforced this idea for a moment, the flashback when Sayo is holding what seemed a box or a pile of books, but the page showed it was the second as a remainder of the world they shared.

Well, of course it could be that Ikuko lied when she said she found the bottle few days before and maybe she had owned it through all the time Battler had lived with her. Honestly I don't know and we'll need to see if the manga will develop it.
If it won't, I think I'll accept Ikuko wasn't lying.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

Actually after re-reading EP1, Battler, in his inner monologue referred to Higurashi as a novel, which suggests that it is a published work. This means that the novel SHOULD have been published sometime in the 80s in-universe, before the Rokken Island massacre. If I remember correctly Ikuko/Tohya/Featherine never had her novels published for public eyes to see and only kept manuscripts never having it published, until Battler/Tohya came into her life (correct me if I am wrong).

It could be, it could be not. After all Maria is seeing an alternate version of Card Captor Sakura in Umineko (note that CCS wasn't even printed in 1986 and that Ryukishi slightly altered the title on purpose), so it can be the Higurashi that get mentioned is not the same from which Bern is.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

But yeah, after reading Ryukishi's latest interview, I really do hope that he explains the full nature of the meta-world (if the manga is as he claims it to be the "period" to the "sentence" that is the world of Umineko), since we can only come up with theories concerning it which may or may not be correct. At most we can only observe trends about it, but it kinda gets confusing and hard to comprehend in the Chiru arc.

I've the feeling he won't get too deep into the Higurashi connection. In Higanbana people watch Umineko on tv. I guess Ryukishi just like mentioning his works as being read/watched by characters of other works...

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

Also, looking at the perspective of a Rosatrice fan, I can't help but find some more ammunition for them to make arguments based on this interview. Like I could already see them say something like "See, Ryukishi is lying again, he only said the 'official answer' not the 'actual, TRUE answer'" or "Oh! I knew it! He did say it was a game between the author and the reader, just like KNM said!" or "He says Van Dine's Commandment is applicable, so the servant can't be the culprit!". But on the plus side, and I know this is a bit off topic, it was nice to see that Ryukishi has good taste when it comes to visual novels, but after looking at his twitter I have to say that he has bad taste in manga and anime.

For me a Rosatrice fan doesn't need "ammunitions". He has already decided in which truth to believe. Whatever you'll toss him that goes against it will be rejected as a lie or twisted to fit his theory.
This sort of approach was already discussed in Umineko better than what I could do so for me it's not even worth discussing it.
As soon as I saw the interview confirming Sayotrice I knew Rosatrice fans would reject it. At this point I don't really care.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

I like the analogy with the cheese having a different answer that could be considered correct, but not the intended answer, but I have to disagree with the part of the red truth making Rosatrice less plausible, since the new reds in EP8 doesn't make Rosatrice impossible, but since I haven't read ALL of the EP8 chapters, I might've missed a red or two so for anyone reading this feel free to correct me on this one. But I will admit that Rosatrice's biggest downfall may be the message bottle "Confession of the Golden Witch".

The whole Ep 8 manga version is based on pushing forward the idea that Sayotrice is the culprit.
They don't try anymore to hide it. They're just tossing info after info that say Sayotrice. If Ryukishi wanted to keep the answer in the dark he didn't have to give more hints toward Sayotrice, giving more hints toward Sayotrice is like revealing the shape of the cheese.
Ryukishi had been more vague about Lion's biological sex than on Beatrice's identity, even if the hints given in the manga all point to Lion being male instead than keeping ambiguity or pointing to him being female.
Now that he has declared that the game has ended I see no reason for us to keep trying to trick us. The game has ended and the solution had been laid down. At this point is: Did you guess it? Good for you. You didn't? Well, next time you'll be luckier.
Everyone is free to believe he's lying if they want it but don't count on me on that.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

I am currently re-reading the question arcs (VN, Anime and Manga included) at the same time, with Knox, Van Dine, Rosatrice, Sayotrice, Red Truths (up to EP4 ??? ONLY), the fantasy scenes and Willard's Truths in mind (I just finished all first twilights, haven't reached second twilights yet), just so I could try and make sense of both theories by being unbiased about the solution(s). It would be interesting to see if Willard was right about what he said about the solvability of Umineko in which the reader only needs the four games to solve Beatrice's riddles.

For the who and how yes, you can solve it with just the 4 games although alongside with Sayotrice other theories can co-exist. The why though, as far as I'm involved is possible to guess but a bit vague as you miss some details that help you to keep together the hints.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

After I make sense of it all I plan on bashing both theories with the reds in the core arcs (EP8 manga included) and see if any of them can still stand on being plausible. The reason for this is that the reds in chiru get kinda screwy and misleading, to me at least. After that I might try and analyse other pieces of evidence throughout all 8 games to see if they fit both theories and maybe some plot holes that could potentially overturn one or both these theories.

All the red is misleading. Think to the:
There are no more than 18 people on this Rokkenjima
It pushes you to think that there are also no less than 18 people on Rokkenjima.
Instead we know that later on Beatrice will lower the count to:
No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

Just in case someone says that it is impossible for Rosa to be the culprit in EP1, I'll make it clear. Battler in the VN did not observe and inspect Rosa's corpse, he was more focused on his parents. At most he only had a glance (stared while crying from a distance in the anime, which could blur a bit of what he is seeing) on the other corpses. Detective's authority only works if the detective did an inspection HIMSELF. In the anime, Rosa's face was not that messed up like in the manga and could have been easily be faked by wearing a mask. In the manga, the face looks more messed up to the readers, but Battler COULDN'T have seen Rosa's face, since Nanjo and some boxes were in the way and was covering Rosa's head.

The anime isn't a good source as it twisted things so much that the letter Natsuhi held vanished due to magic, and the same applies to Beatrice holding a gun (in the anime the cousins get out of the room when Natsuhi gets shot and see her fall).
In the manga Battler might have seen Rosa prior to moving closer to his parents but let's pretend he didn't. Rosa was closed in the shed. How did she got out of it? How did she returned the key of the shed in the servant room prior to being found? How did she recognize the key in the first place?

A theory has to answer to all the questions.
Even if you force an 'but Battler didn't check properly the corpse' so his detective authority fail you then stumble on another whole set of problems.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon! Survivors may have referred to Battler's group, the people listed in the end as having survived at the credits roll. If Rosatrice is to be believed, she isn't dead, so she doesn't have an alibi, but since she isn't listed as one of the survivors in the credits roll, she bypasses this. Likewise, if Sayotrice is to be believed, only Shannon and Kanon have alibis, not Sayo. Since he isn't listed as one of the survivors in the credits roll, he bypasses this.

What about no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon? That one includes basically every living being. Even if you force a different definition for survivors, the following part just denies the possibility someone killed Kanon.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

In case someone says Van Dine doesn't work, it should for both theories. Ryukishi confirms this in the latest interview and Willard in the manga says so as well (EP8 Chapter 18). To address the thing about the love interest, I think it applies only to the detective. Battler more or less by the time of Umineko gave up on Shannon, so it doesn't count more or less. I think the thing with George proposing is just to establish that they are a couple, in the same manner that the siblings have their own spouses. By no means it is the focus of the mystery nor does it "bring a lovelorn couple to the hymeneal altar". BUT it is a focus BEFORE the mystery happens (eg Turn of the Golden Witch prologue and early chapters) and during the FANTASY scenes. If anything it serves as somewhat of a hint in the whole story of Umineko, in regards to the Whydunnit, but not the howdunnit.

No, he didn't confirm it works on Umineko.

Ryukishi07: I do think that Knox’s Decalogue and Van Dine’s Twenty Rules should be applied to mysteries from this time period.

Since mysteries are constantly evolving, I also think that it might not be appropriate to apply old-fashioned rules to state-of-the-art mysteries.

However, because these are some of the basic rules of mysteries, I believe that it can’t hurt to at least browse them.

He also said:

R If everything happens in complete accordance to Van Dine’s 20 Rules of Detective Fiction, then the motive becomes basically obsolete and is removed from the cornerstones of the story. So that’s how it became my goal to eliminate the 20 rules and how they vanished from Umineko.

K Most of Will’s 20 Van Dine Rules were never claimed to have effect during the story. Many of them were also interrupted. And many of those claimed to have effect were written in plain white letters.

Also, differently from Knox, which however wasn't used in his original form, Van Dine is not even included in the tips.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

At the end of the day, this whole Rosatrice vs Sayotrice debate is just like the debate found in the DBZ fandom. There is the debate that Tien is stronger than Krillin, which is evident in the whole series, but due to the author's words that Krillin is the strongest human, the fans are prevented from winning the argument that Tien is stronger than Krillin. Likewise, in the Umineko fandom, we the fans are prevented from winning the argument that Rosatrice is the truth, since we aren't the creators, we are just fans talking, debating and sharing thoughts and opinions. I think the only reason that the flame war started was because, compared to DBZ, Umineko is a very complex story and it just went downhill from there with fans going at each others throats throwing reds here and there, fans being dicks, fans using KNM as if it is the absolute truth, fans being ignorant, etc. Of course if we were to say that Ryukishi is lying then that's another topic for discussion, but as of the present time, I think that it would over complicate things than it already is.

The problem is that in the DBZ fandom no one was asked to guess who was the strongest. Here we were and the asnwer we were supposed to reach was the one the author wanted. Now, the author might be poor, his answer might suck and a fan theory might be better.
It happens. We go back to the cheese that can be cut just once.
But we're playing a game with Ryukishi in which the goal is to find the answer he was wanting for us to find, not a better answer from the one he thought.
That one is another game, a legittimate game, a game I also play as I find some of his answers are extremely poor, but it's not the original game.
As in Ep 5 was said we can scribble on the chessboard but at this point we aren't playing chess anymore.

[Lombardest]

Did we ever know what was Bern's logic error? I only watched the anime but I always assumed it was not specified since in Higurashi there was no metaworld, at least it wasn't treated as such.

[Leslie Chow]

No, he didn't confirm it works on Umineko.

Crap. I guess I misread that one. But if we were to rely on just the materials alone (eg anime, manga, and visual novels), without the interviews, we could actually use Van Dine as a guide. After all, in EP2, Beatrice did say that Van Dine and Knox are applicable to her games, but since at the time Battler was incompetent, I guess we only saw Knox and Van Dine in action later in the Chiru arcs. But I guess if we took it as a hint, using Knox and Van Dine should have helped the reader somewhat solve the mystery just with the question arcs, as later claimed by Willard in EP7.

So I am guessing Ryukishi is saying to "eliminate the 20 rules" was because it might mislead the reader from reaching the truth, e.g. with the rule "The servant cannot be the culprit".? (that is, if we are just going with question arcs alone, but then again, this is Ryukishi and he does mislead his readers lol). But then again, Beatrice was going with the whole thing in Our Confession that 1 in a 1000 would figure out the truth (not sure if this is accurate since I am quoting from memory). Thinking about it in the Sayotrice perspective makes me think that because the readers should potentially arrive at the truth with just question arcs alone, if they use all the tools (eg the crime scenes, the fantasy scenes, the potential hints through the magical explanations, Knox, Reds, and Van Dine) provided in the story, but because of how the rules of Van Dine is structured, most people would be mislead, especially in regards to the rule "The servant cannot be the culprit", then of course many people would rule out the servants as the culprit. However, if we were to take even the slightest hints provided in the story, say the part about the Fukuin House where the orphans are experimented and the idea that Beatrice was a homunculus, then we have a link.

We could theorize that Goldsmith with his experiments created Beatrice through a homunculus body of a servant from the Fukuin House. Following Knox #1, Shannon is the only candidate to be the "vessel" of Beatrice and the only one of the two Fukuin House orphans to be female.

But wait a minute, doesn't this contradict Van Dine #11? Well if Kinzo's story of Beatrice is to be taken as a hint, then basically Shannon isn't a servant but Kinzo's alchemic advisor.

But wouldn't that mean believing in a magical being? No, but we could say in one crazy theory that Kinzo is so wealthy that he has access to the latest technology and may have used Shannon as a clone of sorts or even transferred Kuwadorian Beatrice's memories onto the Fukuin House servant when she was still a kid, which made her mentally disturbed like Jekyll and Hyde.

BUT DOESN'T THAT GO AGAINST KNOX #4! Nope, she is still human who is a sociopath that gets pleasure from making others think that magic exists, I mean look at how she influenced Maria and how she scared the other people! She doesn't use this tech to commit the murders. If what Beatrice said about Van Dine and Knox being applicable, then the culprit must play by their own rules like the sociopath she is, y'know like a Batman villain or something. Plus we could conclude that she inherited the title Kinzo through the Tea Party in EP4.

Yeah I know this is a bit far-fetched but this is the best I got to reply in regards to the whole thing about Van Dine (if we just focus on the question arcs without any reference to the core arcs). Hopefully my reply wasn't convoluted and confusing, since I am bad at expressing myself.

So I take it the only ones applicable are the ones stated in the series then? But personally though, I still think that Van Dine doesn't go against Sayotrice and Rosatrice, and I say this because characters in the story itself says that Van Dine is applicable and should be taken as a hint to solving the mystery.

What about no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon? That one includes basically every living being. Even if you force a different definition for survivors, the following part just denies the possibility someone killed Kanon.

I forgot to mention this one, since I was more focused on the alibi aspect and I didn't want to put in an incomplete red truth. This one is a bit tricky, since I could claim that Sayo DIDN'T KILL Kanon, but merely CHOSE Kanon to die. This could also account for the statement in EP3 The six people died instantly! In this sense, Kanon wasn't really killed but died nonetheless. The problem with this line of thinking is that in EP2, we get the statement that Kanon was killed in this room, which suggest that Kanon was killed, or rather the Kanon identity was killed. But then again reds are misleading and in EP8 Chapter 21, Beatrice and Ange did have that battle in the chapel. Thing is Beatrice did say this interesting red truth:

It's useless! You cannot escape this locked room! This locked room is perfect and 'I' have killed 'you' within it!

If we think about it Beatrice NEVER locked Ange in a locked room and DID NOT KILL her in a literal sense. This led me to believe that if this statement is to be taken metaphorically, then the red truth does make sense and isn't a lie.

Here's my blue truth: Because Beatrice (or Sayotrice) planned to do the murder game mystery, this led to a series of events that led to Rokken Island massacre carried out by Rudolf and Kyrie. This led to the survival of Eva and the one to take care of Ange, who chose to believe that Eva was the culprit due to the mass media attention that pinned Eva as the culprit. She locked herself with her imagination becoming a girl who is almost as if is on acid, due to the influence of Maria's diary who was influenced by a mentally disturbed person who claims to be Beatrice. Because of this, Ange became anti-social and was frequently bullied by her peers, which led her to find comfort in her own imagination which ironically was made by the one who post-mortemly and indirectly put her in the situation she was in that led to her death.

Ange did a much more shorter version of my answer in the same chapter, and it was used to counter Beatrice's red in a metaphorical fashion.

So getting back in EP2, the red could also be used to metaphorically say that Kanon was killed by Sayo in her head at least, but because Kanon isn't a real person, the fact remains that no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!, since it is impossible to kill Kanon in REAL LIFE, but at the same time, Kanon could be killed in SOMEONE'S HEAD OR IMAGINATION. Theoretically, it could even be said in red that Kanon is dead but alive or Kanon died but wasn't killed or Kanon was killed but couldn't be dead or something along those lines. It does seem unfair, but it is what it is. Due to the nature of Sayo's personalities, it is able to bypass this red truth and it wouldn't make any contradictions and wouldn't be considered a lie.

For the who and how yes, you can solve it with just the 4 games although alongside with Sayotrice other theories can co-exist. The why though, as far as I'm involved is possible to guess but a bit vague as you miss some details that help you to keep together the hints.

This reply links up to what I have just said in the first reply and a bit on the second reply.

If the reader is 1 in the 1000 (in the Sayotrice point of view) manages to come to this conclusion, the reader could only conclude that Shannon is Beatrice, because as far as I can remember, there is no evidence that indicates that Kanon and Shannon shares one body. At best, they could only solve 2/3 of who dunnit, 3/4 of how dunnit and 1/2 of why dunnit.

Is it unfair to the reader? Yes and no. Yes, because the reader wouldn't be able to conclude in question arcs alone Yasu's full nature and parts of the how dunnit could even be wrong. On the other hand, it is not unfair to the reader, because they are actually on the right path and have pinned down Shannon as the culprit, which is mostly true, because Shannon or Sayo is the first and original personality of Yasu who was always clumsy, Kanon personality is a personality more or less forced on Sayo due to finding out that he was a Namekian (DBZ Abridged joke reference (sorry can't help it) - Namekians don't have penises, but you know what I mean); most of the how dunnit are solved anyways; and as for the why dunnit, there is the hint about Battler's sin and Sayo commenting in EP3 regarding Battler's promise to her in 1980, so pretty much you've got the reason, though not in great detail. You make a theory then ask yourself is this the right one or is it Rosatrice or Jessitrice? This is expected since the first four games are called QUESTION ARCS. Since the fair parts outweighs the unfair parts, it is safe to say that the reader "solved" the mystery with just the question arcs. Overall, the reader could say that they have solved it with just the Question Arcs, but only needs some clarification with the answer through the core arc, where the "Heart" is emphasized and to fix the mistakes made in the howdunnit part.

Rosa was closed in the shed. How did she got out of it? How did she returned the key of the shed in the servant room prior to being found? How did she recognize the key in the first place?

A theory has to answer to all the questions.
Even if you force an 'but Battler didn't check properly the corpse' so his detective authority fail you then stumble on another whole set of problems.

She could have used a master key or if that doesn't work, she could have just used the garden tools in the shed to destroy the shutter with either the tools and/or gun. After all, nobody did come back to see the garden tool shed if I remember correctly.

Alternatively she could just break the window and get through it. The visual novel does not specify the size of the window, so it could be assumed that it is big enough to fit a person to get through it. The anime shows that Battler could at least theoretically fit through the window and if you compare his size with Rosa, it is obvious that he is taller than her and has a bigger mass in body size. So it shouldn't be impossible for Rosa to get through the window. But since the anime does screw up a bit on the character designs, like George and Battler being the same height (Battler is 5'11'' and George is 5'7'' according to the visual novel), so we can't really say if both Battler and George are 5'11" or 5'7", but we could conclude that maybe someone who is at least 5'7" should be able to fit inside. Now if we go into the manga version however, the window is significantly smaller, but only for George and possibly Battler, if we factor in the fact that Battler did some muscle training, which should make him fairly built and possibly even George, since he does martial arts (and in Ougon Musou Kyoku, he is shown to be as such). But regardless, it should have Rosa fit in there, since we don't really have a clear answer to her body size. If I were to give a rough estimate on her size, by looking at the magic ending of the PS3 version, I would put her at around 5'0" at the shortest to 5'3" at the max and should be skinny enough to fit through the window to get out of the garden tool shed to later move around freely to do the crimes.

I've the feeling he won't get too deep into the Higurashi connection. In Higanbana people watch Umineko on tv. I guess Ryukishi just like mentioning his works as being read/watched by characters of other works...

Well that would be disappointing, but I'd be fine with it. But like I said in my first post, the Japanese Wikipedia listed the clarification of the connection of Higurashi to Umineko as part of the changes in EP8 manga. But like you said, Ryukishi might just be toying with his readers by mentioning his works as being read/watched by characters of other works. But if the manga really is the "period" to the "sentence" known as Umineko, then I think that we should still get a full explanation on the full nature of the meta-world regardless as well as Ikuko by the end of the magic end. Did she have plastic surgery or something to look young, or is she really a supernatural being?

Did we ever know what was Bern's logic error? I only watched the anime but I always assumed it was not specified since in Higurashi there was no metaworld, at least it wasn't treated as such.

It wasn't specified, but it was suggested to have been Rika not having found a way to survive the month of June 1983. In Higurashi Hou Kamikanshi hen there was a phenomenon similar to that of the meta-world.

P.S. I am still having a hard time finding the scans for Willard's solutions in EP7 manga in the forum, can anyone send me a link to where I can find the scans? Thanks in advance. I have a theory in mind concerning All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!, since the snippet showed in Confession of the Golden Witch seems incomplete.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

After all, in EP2, Beatrice did say that Van Dine and Knox are applicable to her games, but since at the time Battler was incompetent, I guess we only saw Knox and Van Dine in action later in the Chiru arcs.

No, you're mistaken about that. I just searched through the script for eps 1-4 now, and Van Dine is only mentioned once, in the following part:

"But you told me it in red. ...You said that there are no types of hidden doors."

"Hmm. No secret passage exists that you all do not know of. Was it Knox, or was it Van Dine? It seems that in mystery novels, there must not be hidden passages, no matter what. I also follow that etiquette."

All she's saying there is that she follows the etiquette of there being no hidden doors. She wasn't saying there that Knox and/or Dine rules apply to the game.