Macross Frontier (Macross 25) general discussion [No Spoilers]

[Dash_Hunter]

If anyone want to watch the new ending credits scene here it is:

They may take it down quickly, so watch it while you can.
This new scene is enough for me, now I look forward to the new series, or at least new information about the new series.

[Darthtabby]

Interesting to see, but I kind of feel like the movie might actually be better without the new material. I'm not crazy on the hyper busy CGI concerts and I feel the movie's existing hopeful hints should have been good enough without Kawamori going and adding more later.

Then again if they were to go back and tweak a few bits of the TV series finale to give it a more decisive resolution I might appreciate it, so who am I to talk?

[magnuskn]

Many thanks, Dash.

And, yeah, if they went back to tweak the TV series, that would pretty much make it perfect for me. Well, actually I'd want a tweaked TV series and some further OVA's, but that's just me, I guess.

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by Dash_Hunter

If anyone want to watch the new ending credits scene here it is:

They may take it down quickly, so watch it while you can.
This new scene is enough for me, now I look forward to the new series, or at least new information about the new series.

The scene at the end is a pretty noteworthy addition, not that the CG rendering of Sheryl and Ranka's concert is bad necessarily, just weird. The CG and animation is pretty good at least, and I really like Sheryl and Ranka's outfits .

But all the same... that blue shooting shooting star !

I'm fine with the TV series and the movie ending as they are, even if I'd definitely love to see more from either depiction of Frontier's story, and hopefully there'll be new info about the next Macross soon to tide us over .

Although in terms of wanting more Frontier animation, I'm really hoping someone posts those Pachinko videos eventually .

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Frontier

The scene at the end is a pretty noteworthy addition, not that the CG rendering of Sheryl and Ranka's concert is bad necessarily, just weird. The CG and animation is pretty good at least, and I really like Sheryl and Ranka's outfits .

But all the same... that blue shooting shooting star !

I'm fine with the TV series and the movie ending as they are, even if I'd definitely love to see more from either depiction of Frontier's story, and hopefully there'll be new info about the next Macross soon to tide us over .

Instead of adding that stuff to the ending credits, I wish they would've added ALL the film scenes from the Crossover Live 30 concert as a bonus feature...

Originally Posted by Frontier

Although in terms of wanting more Frontier animation, I'm really hoping someone posts those Pachinko videos eventually .

That's basically impossible, unless they put it on a blu-ray. Or unless someone goes into a pachinko parlor films the game machine itself.

[stray]

I haven't posted here in so long... its so sleepy and in "Retired" status; most threads are closed but I really have to say I really don't see why people thought um... d Shudisuta b isn't or wasn't coming back. Its totes obvious the manga is the true end. Well... the second manga ending after they concluded the first time. Or was it the third? Regardless, it should be apparent in the movies.

Still at least a few months until the next Macross but I figured I would necro the forum early for old time's sake. I regret missing the majority of the movie shipping wars; as much as I enjoyed the series... I think the Frontier movies have supplanted 7 as my favorite entry in the series overall.

[Tak]

Oh you! I finally got to watch Build Fighters!

- Tak

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Tak

Its not just that, its also how Heinz was able to overpower her when all indicators suggest Windermerians are inferior in their abilities compared to the typhoon that is Mikumo.

I mean, the breaks that Windermere gets... yeesh.

Unless, by a fluke, going off of the plot conveniences in the series too, he is royalty because of "plot reasons."

His origin is unknown, outside of his friendship with Keith, so it's... probable? Who knows? Dude is basically Heinz's guardian / butler guy earlier on in the series and... for what purpose that no other typical maid / butler could do? And how is this dude hired for this job? Again, I'm chopping it up to pure plot convenience.

Then again, I said similar to myself during the airing of Frontier with Ranka holding Vajra blood inside her body (regardless of where) and is unable to access any "Vajra powers" outside of singing / communication.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

And hell, while I'll proclaim love for Delta (and others will for Frontier), I'll gladly admit there are numerous plot conveniences in each one of them; doesn't hinder me from enjoying especially it's good moments. I'll just be quicker to admit "it's dumb but then again, what else could Delta do when Frontier is what it's expected to live up to?"

Funny, I don't remember Frontier having that many plot conveniences. And Delta could have tried being as good as Frontier, for instance. That they didn't is a commentary on something, I just don't know if its "Kawamori is losing his touch", "the anime industry is losing its touch" or something else.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Funny, I don't remember Frontier having that many plot conveniences. And Delta could have tried being as good as Frontier, for instance. That they didn't is a commentary on something, I just don't know if its "Kawamori is losing his touch", "the anime industry is losing its touch" or something else.

Ranka choosing leaving Frontier and quickly being captured is quite similar to the situation with Mikumo, for instance.

And speaking of the inconsistencies in Frontier, S.M.S. abandoning Frontier because two of their main characters (Ozma and Catherine) were basically fugitives who discovered Mishima is a possible traitor and also required confirmation of this information by going to Galia 4 which has nothing to do with him (only the Vajra / Ranka) is relevant for the Mishima case how? Aside from discovering how Galaxy is involved overall or Ranka is connected to the Vajra (of which even this is shady, too), this served no real purpose to help in regaining Frontier from the newly oppressive King Mishima who basically is leading Frontier to ruin. This whole mission right here is very similar to Delta Squadron dropping down with Walküre on Windermere for eliminating the ruins only to be captured for two episodes... it's basically filler and an inconsistency because it's proving how both kind of (ironically) inspired each other in the wrong areas at times. Their similarity doubles because both Delta Squadron plus Walküre and S.M.S. basically do nothing but exposition or filler for two episodes...

For clarity, I'm not saying either series is a piece of perfection, and I know Delta is not measuring up to Frontier; however, I'll still admit Frontier has signs of inconsistency and flaws, and I'll be fine with it. Sometimes, those little flaws ironically have been recycled in Delta in areas I like. But I don't believe any of the staff (outside of Kawamori) believed it could outshine Frontier, especially without going in a new direction altogether. It's hard to come up with new ideas in an old franchise...

[BetoJR]

Please, stop with the comparisons... They'll generally devolve into shouting matches.

[magnuskn]

No, Ranka being captured quickly was a set-up by Grace. Why do you think she let Brera leave in first place? Ranka choosing to leave Frontier was a character development (quite in vein of Rankas otherwise incredibly poor decisions in that section of the show) and was set up quite extensively with Ai-Kun.

SMS did not abandon Frontier just because of Cathy and Ozma. They did leave because they had gotten wind of the conspiracy from Galaxy and were looking for background information about Grace, who was part of the exploration fleet which got destroyed at Gallia IV. The admiral and his staff immediately believed Cathy when she accused Leon and put him under arrest. The problem for Cathy, Ozma and SMS was that Mishima had successfully assumed the presidency after his coup and they could not be sure before that any attempt by them to contact the military leadership would not be intercepted.

It's not an inconsistency, it is a development which just didn't go in the direction you thought it should.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Please, stop with the comparisons... They'll generally devolve into shouting matches.

That's more of because a majority of fans of Frontier believe it's a masterpiece... and it's not. It's not even my favorite of the franchise (not even close) because Plus wins over it every single day.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

No, Ranka being captured quickly was a set-up by Grace. Why do you think she let Brera leave in first place? Ranka choosing to leave Frontier was a character development (quite in vein of Rankas otherwise incredibly poor decisions in that section of the show) and was set up quite extensively with Ai-Kun.

And this is a plot convenience.
Because Grace has any control over Ai-kun or basic knowledge this is going to happen since when (and how!)? Don't tell me this is from her years of research on the Vajra because I'd call bullshit on her knowing this sequence of events would occur right that second. And Brera discovering Ranka is his sister now after episodes of the two hanging out in similar situations to how they did in Ranka's flashbacks did not trigger it? These are all plot conveniences because it's all happening at once because the staff is deciding "we need this sequence to be relevant." If Brera had recovered his memory gradually like Ranka does from episode 10 on, and if more time had been given to showcase how Ai-kun is suddenly "kidnapping" Ranka, it'd be a little less stupid, IMO.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

SMS did not abandon Frontier just because of Cathy and Ozma. They did leave because they had gotten wind of the conspiracy from Galaxy and were looking for background information about Grace, who was part of the exploration fleet which got destroyed at Gallia IV. The admiral and his staff immediately believed Cathy when she accused Leon and put him under arrest. The problem for Cathy, Ozma and SMS was that Mishima had successfully assumed the presidency after his coup and they could not be sure before that any attempt by them to contact the military leadership would not be intercepted.

And their goal is ultimately regaining Frontier. And again, Galaxy's or even Grace's involvement on Galia 4 had nothing to prove Mishima is a traitor. Now, it's a good argument to add this is giving viewer's a chance to calm down for the final act or give a little backstory for Grace but it's pointless in the grand scheme of how S.M.S. will be benefiting from their newly found information aside from proving Galaxy is their main enemy (of which this is even worthless because it's Alto who points it out in the final episode via telling them to shoot the hologram of Ranka and reveal Battle Galaxy). So again, S.M.S. abandoning Frontier gained really nothing and mirrored a bit of Delta Squadron in episode 23 at times...

[Tak]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Please, stop with the comparisons... They'll generally devolve into shouting matches.

Wouldn't be worse than the presidential 'debates'...

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

That's more of because a majority of fans of Frontier believe it's a masterpiece... and it's not. It's not even my favorite of the franchise (not even close) because Plus wins over it every single day.

Wuh!?

Yer DED!!! DED!!! Ya hear me, DED!!! *grrrrrrr*

- Tak

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Tak

Wouldn't be worse than the presidential 'debates'...

Wholeheartedly agree on this. I'm sick of the bastards over here in this election year; I'm glad it'll be over soon...

Originally Posted by Tak

Wuh!?

Yer DED!!! DED!!! Ya hear me, DED!!! *grrrrrrr*

Hear me out!

Plus has:
- Isamu
- epic dogfights in a real sky (something Frontier is sadly missing)
- is shorter so less filler
- aside from a couple of minor sequences, it's beautifully animated for its year
And I basically enjoyed it.

Hell, because Delta has Hayate in it (who is pseudo Isamu in personality), I even place Delta above Frontier on my list. It's not that I did not enjoy Frontier, I did not find any other characters aside from Ranka, Michael, or Sheryl (in said order, too) to be entertaining (because Alto is a lead character who broods a little too much in the TV series...).

[Tak]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Hear me out!

Plus has:
- Isamu
- epic dogfights in a real sky (something Frontier is sadly missing)
- is shorter so less filler
- aside from a couple of minor sequences, it's beautifully animated for its year
And I basically enjoyed it.

Sheryl > Everything else!!

Still not convinced!? Her superiority will soon be known to you!!!

Now where did I put that dress...

- Tak

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

And this is a plot convenience.
Because Grace has any control over Ai-kun or basic knowledge this is going to happen since when (and how!)? Don't tell me this is from her years of research on the Vajra because I'd call bullshit on her knowing this sequence of events would occur right that second. And Brera discovering Ranka is his sister now after episodes of the two hanging out in similar situations to how they did in Ranka's flashbacks did not trigger it? These are all plot conveniences because it's all happening at once because the staff is deciding "we need this sequence to be relevant." If Brera had recovered his memory gradually like Ranka does from episode 10 on, and if more time had been given to showcase how Ai-kun is suddenly "kidnapping" Ranka, it'd be a little less stupid, IMO.

Dude. Grace and her Galaxy cronies had been monitoring Ranka before they arrived on Frontier and then actively controlled her through her music contract for a while. They stuck Brera as her bodyguard, since they knew he had this connection to Ranka. And he basically did declare to Ranka "I'll do anything for you", which Grace also knew.

"Plot convenience" doesn't mean "Plot developments" and you are clearly conflating the two. Frontier did an excellent job providing a continuous storyline where things build from what had happened before. I will happily concede that Rankas turnaround after episode 17 was baffling, but it also was pretty consistent with at least parts of how she had been portrayed before.

In contrast, Delta did so many ass-pulls out of nowhere and had so many dropped plot points that it is on a completely other level of quality. A much lower level.

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

And their goal is ultimately regaining Frontier. And again, Galaxy's or even Grace's involvement on Galia 4 had nothing to prove Mishima is a traitor. Now, it's a good argument to add this is giving viewer's a chance to calm down for the final act or give a little backstory for Grace but it's pointless in the grand scheme of how S.M.S. will be benefiting from their newly found information aside from proving Galaxy is their main enemy (of which this is even worthless because it's Alto who points it out in the final episode via telling them to shoot the hologram of Ranka and reveal Battle Galaxy). So again, S.M.S. abandoning Frontier gained really nothing and mirrored a bit of Delta Squadron in episode 23 at times...

No, their goal is not only to regain Frontier. That was one part of why they departed, but there are multiple other factors. They know of the conspiracy and need information and evidence. They need to get Cathy and Ozma away from Leons kill squads. They want to help Ranka (although in that case I also found it a bit strange that they went to Gallia IV and not after Ranka).

And they came to the military leadership with the information about Galaxy before Alto revealed himself to be alive, so my point stands.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Tak

Sheryl > Everything else!!

Still not convinced!? Her superiority will soon be known to you!!!

Now where did I put that dress...

Not even Ranka, who is my favorite character, could save Frontier in this contest.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Dude. Grace and her Galaxy cronies had been monitoring Ranka before they arrived on Frontier and then actively controlled her through her music contract for a while.

"Plot convenience" doesn't mean "Plot developments" and you are clearly conflating the two.

Dude. (Because I'm a girl!)
None of your quote has anything to do with how Grace could know Ranka would choose abandoning the cockpit to talk to Ai-kun or if Ai-kun will capture her. This, again, is all a big plot convenience.

And again, I call bullshit on Grace knowing everything Ranka will do. Her gaining control over Ranka is a plot development which could have easily been done on Frontier, too; and eventually transported her to the Vajra Queen later on while she's brainwashed.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Frontier did an excellent job providing a continuous storyline where things build from what had happened before.

That's your opinion.
Personally, I didn't believe Frontier did anything spectacular or refined at all; in fact, I could argue it's number of fillers did not help in this.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I will happily concede that Rankas turnaround after episode 17 was baffling, but it also was pretty consistent with at least parts of how she had been portrayed before.

I could see it coming from episode 12 on...?
I mean, from a viewer point of view, she is portraying a normal teenage girl who is directly involved in this war because of her connection to their enemy (regardless of contrived or not, meaning if said event could occur in real life). She basically is continuously questioning which side is right or wrong, and because she has no political power or physical ability to challenge their leaders on if this situation is right or wrong, she basically goes along with everything because it's all she can do (similar to how people do in real life). The choices she commits to in episode 21 are basically because she is utilizing what little power and freedom of speech she has in this war by abandoning Frontier and solving this on her own. She had no friends in the military who could listen to her (especially without Mishima knowing about it) once Ozma and Catherine are fugitives; and she did try to explain her reasoning to Alto, too (even if she didn't do it direct enough).

Ironically, I had a little more trouble on her (or even Alto) not picking up on Grace's 180 from supporting her beloved Sheryl to supporting Ranka between episodes 15 and 16. That... should have raised eyebrows on any of the main characters, especially the main trio.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

They want to help Ranka (although in that case I also found it a bit strange that they went to Gallia IV and not after Ranka).

And they came to the military leadership with the information about Galaxy before Alto revealed himself to be alive, so my point stands.

Ironically, on your bit of S.M.S. wishing to help Ranka and going to Galia 4, I could equally argue how S.M.S. more than likely did not know where the Vajra home planet is or if Ranka had gone to it (as in if she is there now). They also would be generally outnumbered if Ranka had not arrived to deliver her peace message to the Vajra prior so I'll consider this little sequence to be a very smart choice on their part (even if it is contrived for it all because Grace had no connection to Galaxy or Mishima during her time on Galia 4 so it again did not prove Mishima is a traitor for the other leaders).

On Alto, no offense but prior to his chiming in, the leaders asked for a little proof that their accusation holds water. In other words, if Alto had not chimed in, S.M.S. basically would've gained nothing from all their findings because how could they shoot down Ranka not knowing if it's really her or not. It's Alto who revealed it's not; but if he'd died (which is a whole other shitload of bullshits for him not dying, meaning conveniences abundance here), S.M.S. is screwed on proving it unless they're willing to risk killing Ranka and jeopardizing their mission to communicate with the Vajra and gain peace...

[ippus]

.........
.....


....


*Breathe*

Yeah no. BACK AND AWAY TO THE HIDEOUT I GO!

[Tak]

Originally Posted by ippus

Yeah no. BACK AND AWAY TO THE HIDEOUT I GO!

Once there, try look into that place where you dare not look. You will find me there donning that dress staring back at you...

- Tak