Brand New Animal

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Haak

Episode 3 & 4

Spoiler for Episdoe 3 & 4:

Another two solid episodes. I am consistently impressed with how well they’ve focused on Michiru. She has an unfortunate habit of getting into trouble (which is admittedly rather convenient for the plot) but I love how much she gives a damn about the world around her and how she still stays straight as an arrow despite it all. The story does such a great job showing how painful it is for Michiru to be away from her family and friends and how much she wants to return, so it was all the more impressive when she gives up the chance she got for her to return the normal life she’s been desperate for when it came down to it: she gave up the human form she finally managed to obtain so that she could save her friend in need and without the slightest hesitation or complaint. The story ain't giving her any easy rides and it's bloody something watching her stay the champ she is. I absolutely love characters like her.

The undercurrent mystery is drip feeding us with more info at a competent and (mostly) smooth pace. It’s clear Michiru is not ordinary but it’s interesting to learn she’s not the only unique one and that her friend suffered a similar fate as she did. I’m assuming Michiru’s friend will pop up later as the white dress girl in the ED which is worrying since it looks like her friend has changed rather drastically and given the story’s track record of shitting on Michiru, I’m predicting that’s going to be a bad thing for her.

In terms of thematics though, I am still not entirely sure as to what beastmen and their culture represent here. Beastars was utterly rife with social commentary that had a consistent and applicable feel, but with BNA I’m just seeing a hodgepodge mix of various dystopian and fantasy/sci-fi tropes that gives an X-Men vibe and I fear that whatever it’s trying to do will fall further and further into Fantastic Aesop territory the more it develops Anima City and its culture. Just an observation at the moment.

I eventually gave up trying to figure out what, if anything, Nakashima was trying to say here. So if you figure it out please let me know.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I eventually gave up trying to figure out what, if anything, Nakashima was trying to say here. So if you figure it out please let me know.

Yeah, I could only discern the fear of "othering" theme, myself.

[Haak]

Episode 5

Spoiler for Episode 5:

Lol, a literal Baseball Episode. And it was actually pretty fun and hilarious until it suddenly veered into Megalo Box territory. Not that I didn't enjoy that as well but the episode did feel like a bit of a throw away. Unless...

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I eventually gave up trying to figure out what, if anything, Nakashima was trying to say here. So if you figure it out please let me know.

As of Episode 5, I'm still not really sure but there was one factor I might have missed that this episode highlighted. Aside from the running theme of humans vs mutantsbeastman, I've noticed another running theme throughout the show: the focus on the beastman culture and the prevalence of "survival of the fittest". Here in Episode 5, Michiru even made a point of telling the Bear team that they couldn't follow that one and only rule in Anima City and the episode makes it clear that the rule was having a detrimental effect on sportsmanship (because there was clearly none). We've also seen it pop up in previous episodes such as Episode 2 which highlighted how that one rule allegedly puts the female beastmen (beastwomen?) at a natural disadvantage in Anima City. I guess the show might be telling us that the social inequalities and corruption that we face today may in part still be driven by this mindset. I feel like this is a clear social commentary using animal analogies that reminds me very much of Beastars. Perhaps the two shows are more similar than I originally thought. The joke about Dodos going extinct definitely felt like something out of Beastars.

It's just that there's still the whole X-Men theme thrown in (as we saw with the Baseball coach's experiences) and I'm not entirely sure whether there's supposed to be a coherent link or whether they're just two different themes running parallel.

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by Haak

Episode 3 & 4

Spoiler for Episdoe 3 & 4:

Another two solid episodes. I am consistently impressed with how well they’ve focused on Michiru. She has an unfortunate habit of getting into trouble (which is admittedly rather convenient for the plot) but I love how much she gives a damn about the world around her and how she still stays straight as an arrow despite it all. The story does such a great job showing how painful it is for Michiru to be away from her family and friends and how much she wants to return, so it was all the more impressive when she gives up the chance she got for her to return the normal life she’s been desperate for when it came down to it: she gave up the human form she finally managed to obtain so that she could save her friend in need and without the slightest hesitation or complaint. The story ain't giving her any easy rides and it's bloody something watching her stay the champ she is. I absolutely love characters like her.

The undercurrent mystery is drip feeding us with more info at a competent and (mostly) smooth pace. It’s clear Michiru is not ordinary but it’s interesting to learn she’s not the only unique one and that her friend suffered a similar fate as she did. I’m assuming Michiru’s friend will pop up later as the white dress girl in the ED which is worrying since it looks like her friend has changed rather drastically and given the story’s track record of shitting on Michiru, I’m predicting that’s going to be a bad thing for her.

In terms of thematics though, I am still not entirely sure as to what beastmen and their culture represent here. Beastars was utterly rife with social commentary that had a consistent and applicable feel, but with BNA I’m just seeing a hodgepodge mix of various dystopian and fantasy/sci-fi tropes that gives an X-Men vibe and I fear that whatever it’s trying to do will fall further and further into Fantastic Aesop territory the more it develops Anima City and its culture. Just an observation at the moment.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I eventually gave up trying to figure out what, if anything, Nakashima was trying to say here. So if you figure it out please let me know.

I also just picked this up, and just finished episode four myself. I will say that after the first episode my general thought was, "Oh, so they're black." The othering theme someone else mentioned is certainly nothing new. We've seen it used time and time again, but personally I'm fine with that, because it's still very much a reality for many of us in real time. Now, I won't pretend to believe that when the writer and director of this show came up with the idea they specifically had the plight of black people and people of color in mind. If they did that would be cool, but this is a Japanese company, and they probably just wanted to go with an age old theme, which is unfortunately still relevant today.

I like Michiru well enough, but she is a tad bit to self-righteous for my tastes currently.

[Tenzen12]

"Racism is bad" is universally good message and it's better if it stay universal so anyone can learn their lesson then limiting it on black or yellow or white or rainbow coloured group of people.

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

"Racism is bad" is universally good message and it's better if it stay universal so anyone can learn their lesson then limiting it on black or yellow or white or rainbow coloured group of people.

Yes, but, that only works if the person feels that they need to learn a lesson. Sometimes, the problem with keeping things vague is that it allows people an out. Especially, if you only show extreme cases of racism. Someone can go, "Oh, this doesn't apply to me! So, I'm totally not racist." It may be only when you start to point to specific instances, situations, phrases, behaviors, etc, that people can start to see their own faults. Basically, sometimes you have to make it personal if you want people to get it.

[Tenzen12]

Such people wouldn't give a damn either way and lot of others (including myself) don't like preachiness in their entertainment so it might have opposite effect. Keep it low-key. Everyone can have fun and who want learn will learn. That was always best method.

[BWTraveller]

Good grief, I'm tired of all that "you need to understand that you're racist too!" nonsense. Most people aren't racist. Yes there are many racists still around, but it's not something "systemic". The definition has spread so far in some areas that literally anything you do (or not doing those same things) is somehow "racist". This doesn't "teach people" that they need to "change", it just strips all meaning and impact from the word to the point that many people, racist or not, will at best roll their eyes to hear that again. Heck, simply expressing distaste for such statements will be racist in some people's eyes.

As for the show, I've watched the whole thing, marathonned on Netflix a few days ago, and frankly it goes across the board. Basically the message I got is that race relations are complicated. There is a lot of hatred, but there's a lot of hatred directed back and that's really just as destructive. There's claims of criminal or violent tendencies, but in some communities crime and violence can be rampant to the point of being commonplace (it can even get so far that it's seen as "normal" for a couple of young men to suddenly start brawling in line). It's important to treat people the same in some ways, but sometimes that can fail to work with certain individuals (like a migratory "species" having trouble with national insistence on proper procedure when passing through their territory), and sometimes it can be very difficult to find a path that really works to provide freedom to individuals without increasing risks to others. It's important to understand each other, on both sides, and really often neither side is all that willing or driven to do so. And in the end, the community has to work for themselves to change for the better but they can't just shut everyone else out; they need to work to understand and be understood, no matter which side is "them".

I also noticed through this and some others the difference in how race is handled in Japan. I'm not sure, but from what bits and pieces I know about racial and national relations with Japan I think there's certain fundamental differences. Far as I can tell, when the Japanese dealt with other races and nationalities they typically were on close to equal standing economically, technologically, etc. As a result, while Western approaches to racism often have a race that'd always been oppressed and had their rights taken from them, in Japan you often see a bit more equality in the conflict. You tend to have more bad things happening on both sides. In some of the series I've seen the other races are from neighboring countries that have a history of war with the main country, resulting in bad memories and resentments on both sides.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Cloudedmind

Yes, but, that only works if the person feels that they need to learn a lesson. Sometimes, the problem with keeping things vague is that it allows people an out. Especially, if you only show extreme cases of racism. Someone can go, "Oh, this doesn't apply to me! So, I'm totally not racist." It may be only when you start to point to specific instances, situations, phrases, behaviors, etc, that people can start to see their own faults. Basically, sometimes you have to make it personal if you want people to get it.

That's a tricky one. Racism has certainly moved on from what it used to be, so yeah generic messages are basically useless against adults. There are racists that are basically so dumb that they will literally call black people all manner of horrendous stuff (including the N-word) but will still wholeheartedly deny they're racists. Then there are racists that prefer to use coded language and then use bad faith to hide behind the excuse of ignorance. The natural reaction is to argue that ignorance is not an excuse, but unfortunately there is A LOT of ignorance so going down this route ends up burning more people than you would have originally expected. There is a lot of racial bias which people either don't want to acknowledge or simply don't care about because it doesn't affect them, but they're not racist. But trying to actually talk about these issues will invite all kinds of false grievances, false feelings of persecutions, victim complexes and imaginary gatekeeping and you have to wonder whether it really is better to be more politically correct about these kind of things to avoid touching on people's sensitivities.

At the end of the day I get the feeling that (as of Episode 6), BNA is meant to be a family friendly show targeted at all ages (despite that one scene of the yakuza underling getting brutally murdered on the pier) so a generic message probably is more appropriate, especially for kids who may not understand the nuances of 21st century racism. And one can argue that this is probably better in the long term because you'll have far more success convincing a kid who will remember it for the rest of their lives than you would an adult who is already set in their ways. It's a bit Machiavellian, but maybe the best way of solving these problems is by focusing on education for those that will accept it rather than waste time on those who obviously don't want it.

Anyway...

Spoiler for Episode 6:

Damn...

I knew Michiru wasn't gonna have an easy ride when she finds her friend but this was more difficult than I could have imagined. Nazuna isn't even changed because of some evil force that you could pin the entire blame on: She's just revealing some rather ugly beliefs she developed on her own accord. And the worst part is, Nazuna being her best friend knew just where to stick to the knives to hurt Michiru the most. This is actually a really fitting social topic in today's age as people struggle the draw the line on how much they can accept someone's friendship when having such polarised political opinions (although in Nazuna's case it is more just that she's drunk on power).

Don't know if there's any link between the two both being special beasts and the accident they had but I'm inclined to assume so. Also hard not to see Shirou as the probable real Ginrou given his own blatant superpowers but I'm just inclined to think all three are the result of evil scientists doing their thing.

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by Haak

That's a tricky one. Racism has certainly moved on from what it used to be, so yeah generic messages are basically useless against adults. There are racists that are basically so dumb that they will literally call black people all manner of horrendous stuff (including the N-word) but will still wholeheartedly deny they're racists. Then there are racists that prefer to use coded language and then use bad faith to hide behind the excuse of ignorance. The natural reaction is to argue that ignorance is not an excuse, but unfortunately there is A LOT of ignorance so going down this route ends up burning more people than you would have originally expected. There is a lot of racial bias which people either don't want to acknowledge or simply don't care about because it doesn't affect them, but they're not racist. But trying to actually talk about these issues will invite all kinds of false grievances, false feelings of persecutions, victim complexes and imaginary gatekeeping and you have to wonder whether it really is better to be more politically correct about these kind of things to avoid touching on people's sensitivities.

At the end of the day I get the feeling that (as of Episode 6), BNA is meant to be a family friendly show targeted at all ages (despite that one scene of the yakuza underling getting brutally murdered on the pier) so a generic message probably is more appropriate, especially for kids who may not understand the nuances of 21st century racism. And one can argue that this is probably better in the long term because you'll have far more success convincing a kid who will remember it for the rest of their lives than you would an adult who is already set in their ways. It's a bit Machiavellian, but maybe the best way of solving these problems is by focusing on education for those that will accept it rather than waste time on those who obviously don't want it.

In regards to this show, I'm quite alright with it staying vague. As Japan's flavor of racism is slightly different then say the US, or UK's or South Africa's or Australia's etc. and the show is technically meant for an international audience. My answer was more so in regards to Tenzen12 appearing to say that keeping it universal is the best method. I don't personally agree with that depending on the situation.

@BWTravellor, I generally respect your comments even if I don't always agree with your position, but all I'm going to say to your last one is, please look up systematic racism, it's a thing, it exists, there is proof.

[BWTraveller]

It may exist to some extent in some places, and certainly existed to a great degree in the past, but in many places it's largely to the point that it's difficult to call it "systematic". It doesn't help that the waters are muddied by the existence of things that are harmful to the poor and uneducated, because yes to this day a significant portion of the black community is in lower income brackets, below or at least approaching the poverty line, and as a result have difficulties obtaining the same level of education as those in higher brackets. That doesn't mean things that are detrimental to low-income communities are racist. They're classist, and it just happens that the proportion of individuals within certain "classes" differs. And ultimately, like I said about the message presented in this series, it is a very complicated issue that cannot be solved simply, much less written off as some form of oppression victimizing a group. It's very difficult to pull oneself up to a higher level of income, or education, or anything. Simply being in a low level creates disadvantages that are nowhere near as easy to overcome as some may think. You need disproportionately more effort, sacrifice, and pure dumb luck the lower on those ladders you are.

And that's part of what I like about this series. It doesn't deny that racists still exist, even in positions of high influence where they can use their power to "deal with" the "problem". But it also doesn't pretend that it's nearly that simple or universal, or that the problem is all on any particular side. There are legitimate issues with crime, some purported to stem from the beatfolks' unique natures, but also clearly connected to more general problems that would be present in any community with similar base issues regardless of species/race. It deals with a huge range of issues and doesn't paint one side as entirely good or bad. And ultimately the answer they decide on is a complex one, to work hard to improve their own city, and to take the first step to improve relations rather than wait for that step to be taken, as well as seeking to draw more interest and aid. Complex and long-term actions to try and deal with a very complex and slow-changing set of problems, and not once pretending that there's an easy answer to any of it.

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

It may exist to some extent in some places, and certainly existed to a great degree in the past, but in many places it's largely to the point that it's difficult to call it "systematic". It doesn't help that the waters are muddied by the existence of things that are harmful to the poor and uneducated, because yes to this day a significant portion of the black community is in lower income brackets, below or at least approaching the poverty line, and as a result have difficulties obtaining the same level of education as those in higher brackets. That doesn't mean things that are detrimental to low-income communities are racist. They're classist, and it just happens that the proportion of individuals within certain "classes" differs. And ultimately, like I said about the message presented in this series, it is a very complicated issue that cannot be solved simply, much less written off as some form of oppression victimizing a group. It's very difficult to pull oneself up to a higher level of income, or education, or anything. Simply being in a low level creates disadvantages that are nowhere near as easy to overcome as some may think. You need disproportionately more effort, sacrifice, and pure dumb luck the lower on those ladders you are.

And that's part of what I like about this series. It doesn't deny that racists still exist, even in positions of high influence where they can use their power to "deal with" the "problem". But it also doesn't pretend that it's nearly that simple or universal, or that the problem is all on any particular side. There are legitimate issues with crime, some purported to stem from the beatfolks' unique natures, but also clearly connected to more general problems that would be present in any community with similar base issues regardless of species/race. It deals with a huge range of issues and doesn't paint one side as entirely good or bad. And ultimately the answer they decide on is a complex one, to work hard to improve their own city, and to take the first step to improve relations rather than wait for that step to be taken, as well as seeking to draw more interest and aid. Complex and long-term actions to try and deal with a very complex and slow-changing set of problems, and not once pretending that there's an easy answer to any of it.

And, how exactly do you think black and brown folks ended up in such poor economic conditions. It certainly wasn't by accident or happenstance. Here's an interesting video to watch, if you really want to know why, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2roWLzrqOjQ. This is just one of the things people are referring to when we talk about systematic racism.

[BWTraveller]

I did not once claim that the poverty of African Americans was unconnected to past racism. Even an idiot can see that this is the case. But how you got where you are isn't all that often going to help you get out of there. And the fact that systematic racism existed in the past does not mean that it still exists, even if people remain effected. What we have today is by and large far more complicated than "so-and-so is oppressing X groups" or anything like that, and while it certainly is important to recognize the past, dwelling on how one person benefitted from something that happened long ago and another suffered is rarely going to really help fix the problems that remain. It's only a personal opinion, but I honestly believe that it'd be more effective to treat many aspects of modern suffering among low-income blacks, Hispanics or any other race as problems of classism and simple issues of how to improve such groups' economic positions.

And again, that's part of what I like about shows like this and other anime series that deal with difficult subjects like it. It doesn't sit back and pretend that there are easy solutions. It doesn't even claim that it's possible to solve things across the board. There are situations where it's clear a group suffers due to certain situations, but changing that situation is either difficult or legitimately a questionable move.

Spoiler for for instance:

When an albatross flies in he deals for some time with the struggles of his people, who instinctively have to migrate across many countries, since now that they're recognized as people traveling over country borders is met with anything from demands to go through lots of red tape to attacks as an invading force. However, it then becomes clear why a nation would not be able to leave the borders open to them as not only is he there to make a threat with a fake bomb to make his point, but another flying individual came at the same time to assassinate an important figure. After seeing an assassin so easily slip through, it's not really feasible that the government would consider it safe to permit people to just fly through.

The series really doesn't give many declarations of any path or choice being entirely right or wrong, opting instead to simply ask questions, and I like that. Heck, even with extreme situations where it'd be obvious on the surface which side is moral it doesn't simply say one way or another.

Spoiler for big matters near the end:

It's eventually revealed that the beastmen as a whole suffer from a genetic problem which can cause them, in times of extreme stress, to transform into giant berserk monsters and begin killing indiscriminately. The ultimate antagonist claims he has a "cure" that will prevent them from going berserk, which is quickly revealed to be a drug that will permanently turn beastmen into humans. When Michiru talks about this to Nazuna they actually don't know what side is right, since while it means sacrificing their identity it also means being able to survive and not kill one another until no one's left. Frankly, this part feels more like it's addressing matters of mental disorders. Like how some autistic groups become quite offended at the idea of "curing" the condition. Ultimately, even after Michiru discovers that her and Nazuna's blood contain antibodies that can prevent everyone from going berserk, when finally confronting the antagonist who found out and still released robots set to administer the drug to everyone, she doesn't say that it's good or bad for such a drug to exist. She simply says that a choice to discard that part of their identity is not a choice anyone has to make for another. Again, this fits far better with mental disorders. If I had a way to stop being Asperger, it'd be a really tough decision as this condition is a huge part of who I am, but is also one of the core points behind all kinds of bullying and harassment and ostracization experienced throughout my entire life. I don't know what I'd choose, but I know I'd be furious to have someone make the choice without my knowledge.

In any case, I overall don't like the word "racism". I feel like it's overused to cover a huge range of things, and many people expand or narrow the term at will as is convenient, resulting in things like one person saying "that's racist" and a guy replying "Blacks can't be racist". Depending on how one uses the term, both could be true, but this results in merely more friction. Might often be better to just say what it is. And yeah, hatred and judgment over someone or some group based on their ethnicity is a very bad thing no matter who you are or what your situation is. Even if you've lived a thousand years, enduring all kinds of persecution and fighting against slavery, genocide and more, a fanatical inability to look at members of another race as individual people first is still a problem and will not lead to anything good.

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

I did not once claim that the poverty of African Americans was unconnected to past racism. Even an idiot can see that this is the case. But how you got where you are isn't all that often going to help you get out of there.

But, how exactly is someone going to remove themselves from a situation they didn't create, unless they go to the source? And, if the people in positions to make change don't make changes because they either don't see the problem or refuse to, or actively benefit from said problem, then what? How is one supposed to "pull themselves up by the bootstraps", if they were never even given boots to begin with. Understanding how you got where you are is 100% important to understanding how to fix the problem. Especially if the problem was created by someone/s in much higher positions of influence.

And the fact that systematic racism existed in the past does not mean that it still exists, even if people remain effected. What we have today is by and large far more complicated than "so-and-so is oppressing X groups" or anything like that, and while it certainly is important to recognize the past, dwelling on how one person benefitted from something that happened long ago and another suffered is rarely going to really help fix the problems that remain. It's only a personal opinion, but I honestly believe that it'd be more effective to treat many aspects of modern suffering among low-income blacks, Hispanics or any other race as problems of classism and simple issues of how to improve such groups' economic positions.

Except things like Redlining similar to what that earlier video click I posted talks about, still exist and happen today, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining. What yes continues to happen to BIPOC, can't be called classism, because the underlying root or cause of the problem was racism. These modern day problems stemmed from centuries of racism, not classism. So, it's not a problem of class, it's a problem of race. And, people either pretending this stuff didn't happen or was so long ago, and everything is now mostly good and buried, doesn't solve anything either. There's so much information and statistics that show racism is a lot more prevalent then some may wish to believe. And, Systematic Racism isn't just about how "so and so is oppressing X group". I sincerely suggest you do a deep dive into what it actually is, and what people mean when they talk about Systematic/Institutional Racism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism
https://abc7news.com/systemic-racism...at-is/6292530/
https://www.businessinsider.com/us-s...hs-data-2020-6

But, this will be my final say on this particular aspect of the convo.

And again, that's part of what I like about shows like this and other anime series that deal with difficult subjects like it. It doesn't sit back and pretend that there are easy solutions. It doesn't even claim that it's possible to solve things across the board. There are situations where it's clear a group suffers due to certain situations, but changing that situation is either difficult or legitimately a questionable move.

Spoiler for for instance:

When an albatross flies in he deals for some time with the struggles of his people, who instinctively have to migrate across many countries, since now that they're recognized as people traveling over country borders is met with anything from demands to go through lots of red tape to attacks as an invading force. However, it then becomes clear why a nation would not be able to leave the borders open to them as not only is he there to make a threat with a fake bomb to make his point, but another flying individual came at the same time to assassinate an important figure. After seeing an assassin so easily slip through, it's not really feasible that the government would consider it safe to permit people to just fly through.

Spoiler for Replying to spoiler:

Yes, while that's partially true I disagree that at least in this particular situation there were no easy solutions. While sure most countries don't just want people coming and going unchecked, according to Pingue, Albatross beastmen at least had been migrating freely with no problems, up until them being declared "people". If them migrating unchecked wasn't a problem before, why suddenly make it one after? What exactly is the point of adding a bunch of red tape for a group who had apparently been migrating without problems up until that point? The governments around the world could have easily made certain concessions for them if they had wanted to. This clearly wasn't just about "Oh no, terrorist!" or other bad actors possible entering these countries. The almost terrorism, and assassination attempt didn't happen until after the bird beastmen got shut out through red tape, and many of them slaughtered. Basically, human governments created a problem where there hadn't been one, for reasons I don't find hard to guess at. This would be tantamount to telling someone they can't poop anymore, unless they go through hours of red tape and paperwork (which could still end up in them being denied) and when they finally subcomb, and do what comes naturally, you penalize them for "breaking the law".

[/QUOTE]

[Guardian Enzo]

It’s mind-boggling that people are still literally arguing that systemic racism doesn’t exist. But then, it’s also mind-boggling that 46% of the voters chose who they did in 2016.

[Tenzen12]

Well it's also true Trump has higher approval among Afro-American community then any other conservative president in decades and that happened after he became president.

Anyway I will not partake in any further discussion about contemporary politics and if you want continue I humbly ask, please move it elsewhere. There is whole subforum about politics here on animesuki.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Well it's also true Trump has higher approval among Afro-American community then any other conservative president in decades and that happened after he became president.

Is this supposed to be a joke? Trumps approval from African Americans currently sits at 10% whilst a random pick from 2005 reveals Bush had higher support

Literally took me like a minute to look it up. Putting aside the cherry picking fallacy of only looking at conservative president approval numbers, it isn't even true...

Anyway

Spoiler for Episode 7:

I'm starting to get the picture that calling the theme surrounding beastmen vs human an X-Men theme was a bit misleading. X-Men primarily played with race issues related to America dominated by a race that has long since assimilated, whilst BNA (at least in this episode) seems to be tackling issues of multiculturalism and assimilation that are more of an issue in countries there race issues are dominated by the subject of migrants and refugees. It focused on a migratory albatross beastman whose culture has been disenfranchised by the modernisation of society and has found himself left behind without a voice as even his own beast-kin fail to represent him (this might have some bearing on Native-Americans but I don't know anything about that topic). And on another level, the mayor has to contend with a delicate matter on whether Anima City's founding principles and refugee policy applies to the same extent to a debatably nefarious cult and even beastmen who hold anti-beast views. How much do you tolerate a different culture without threatening your own and to what extent can you say no without being discriminatory and threatening the freedoms you're supposed to uphold?

I sincerely hope Nazuna's cult remains a grey area and the story doesn't go down the path of absolute villainy they're quite an interesting conundrum. I would have also preferred more expansion on the Albratoss' issues because these areas are rarely ever as simple enough to last a single episode but I'm guessing this will be single episode affair.

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

In any case, I overall don't like the word "racism". I feel like it's overused to cover a huge range of things, and many people expand or narrow the term at will as is convenient, resulting in things like one person saying "that's racist" and a guy replying "Blacks can't be racist". Depending on how one uses the term, both could be true, but this results in merely more friction. Might often be better to just say what it is. And yeah, hatred and judgment over someone or some group based on their ethnicity is a very bad thing no matter who you are or what your situation is. Even if you've lived a thousand years, enduring all kinds of persecution and fighting against slavery, genocide and more, a fanatical inability to look at members of another race as individual people first is still a problem and will not lead to anything good.

Racism? You might not like the word but it does exist and people anecdotally misusing the term on the internet doesn't change that. The only thing this sentiment will achieve is tolerating more racism as it becomes more and more difficult to simply call a spade a spade because some people don't like inconvenient truths. And that's exactly what racists achieve when they hide behind dog whistles and ignorance: You'd only be doing them favors. It's not hard to see how inhibiting the use of the term "racism" would directly help racists.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Well it's also true Trump has higher approval among Afro-American community then any other conservative president in decades and that happened after he became president.

Anyway I will not partake in any further discussion about contemporary politics and if you want continue I humbly ask, please move it elsewhere. There is whole subforum about politics here on animesuki.

But that (approval rating emphasis) is just to convince more Caucasian voters to vote for him. Others think he's a racist. See the article below.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...ack-americans/

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Cloudedmind

But, how exactly is someone going to remove themselves from a situation they didn't create, unless they go to the source? And, if the people in positions to make change don't make changes because they either don't see the problem or refuse to, or actively benefit from said problem, then what? How is one supposed to "pull themselves up by the bootstraps", if they were never even given boots to begin with. Understanding how you got where you are is 100% important to understanding how to fix the problem. Especially if the problem was created by someone/s in much higher positions of influence.

How exactly is "going to the source" going to change anything at all? It doesn't. Not unless you can get a time machine and get your ancestors out of the situations that started the situation. And just what "changes" would you suggest? As I've said, it's a very complicated thing that can't be fixed quickly or easily and are almost guaranteed to not benefit from simple things like handouts, compensation, or finding some way to punish people whose ancestors may or may not have had something to do with the initial situation.

Except things like Redlining similar to what that earlier video click I posted talks about, still exist and happen today, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining. What yes continues to happen to BIPOC, can't be called classism, because the underlying root or cause of the problem was racism. These modern day problems stemmed from centuries of racism, not classism. So, it's not a problem of class, it's a problem of race. And, people either pretending this stuff didn't happen or was so long ago, and everything is now mostly good and buried, doesn't solve anything either. There's so much information and statistics that show racism is a lot more prevalent then some may wish to believe. And, Systematic Racism isn't just about how "so and so is oppressing X group". I sincerely suggest you do a deep dive into what it actually is, and what people mean when they talk about Systematic/Institutional Racism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism
https://abc7news.com/systemic-racism...at-is/6292530/
https://www.businessinsider.com/us-s...hs-data-2020-6

But, this will be my final say on this particular aspect of the convo.

Question is, how are low-income and high-crime neighborhoods with a larger white population treated? The law doesn't allow discrimination based on race. Yes, race had a lot to do with things reaching the point they're at now, but the reasons for things like you mentioned being done today is often because of aspects of said communities that are not racial, and as such are better addressed as non-racial. Basically, I find it unproductive to look back at the past so much and dwell on the question of what led to things being the way they are, but rather just looking at where things stand now. And yes, there are still racists out there. But I find it very difficult to buy that it remains "institutional", and outside of things that can be directly and undeniably traced to a person's judgment based on race I doubt that addressing it on racial terms is going to be as effective as addressing it on personal or economic terms.

Spoiler for Replying to spoiler:

Yes, while that's partially true I disagree that at least in this particular situation there were no easy solutions. While sure most countries don't just want people coming and going unchecked, according to Pingue, Albatross beastmen at least had been migrating freely with no problems, up until them being declared "people". If them migrating unchecked wasn't a problem before, why suddenly make it one after? What exactly is the point of adding a bunch of red tape for a group who had apparently been migrating without problems up until that point? The governments around the world could have easily made certain concessions for them if they had wanted to. This clearly wasn't just about "Oh no, terrorist!" or other bad actors possible entering these countries. The almost terrorism, and assassination attempt didn't happen until after the bird beastmen got shut out through red tape, and many of them slaughtered. Basically, human governments created a problem where there hadn't been one, for reasons I don't find hard to guess at. This would be tantamount to telling someone they can't poop anymore, unless they go through hours of red tape and paperwork (which could still end up in them being denied) and when they finally subcomb, and do what comes naturally, you penalize them for "breaking the law".

[/QUOTE]

Spoiler:

So you'd let people walk in and out of your house as they wish just because the vast majority of them won't steal anything? The fact that many, even the vast majority, have no evil intent doesn't change the underlying fact that one is creating a weakness in national security that can be taken advantage of. Yes I feel some concessions could possibly be made and the nations that are said to have shot them down as invaders went way too far. But it's also demonstrably not safe to just let them walk through unimpeded. And similarly, just because the guy didn't make mention of any crimes happening before the laws went in place hardly means they didn't. You really think all bird beastmen were saints before those laws were in place? Or that criminal groups didn't notice the incredible benefit of an entire group of people who can cross borders with full immunity? And no, this wouldn't be like punishing someone for pooping somewhere. Rather, if you want to go down that line, it'd be like forbidding someone to poop somewhere, and then when someone poops there and uses his poop to try to poison someone you punish them. And similarly, the very fact that said someone tried to use it as poison demonstrates that the capability was present and known.

And Haak, when I say "call it what it is" I mean things like talking about issues with continuing disparity between groups rather than just calling it "racism", or calling it discriminatory practices, or any number of other things. Plenty of things that do indeed classify as "racism", but differ in what exactly they're dealing with, like the difference between an ignorant person not realizing that her framing her situation as a "disease" can be taken wrong versus a person who views all members of a group as hateful bastards. It's just annoying because it is unspecific, and as I said it can result in nonsensical stuff like people choosing to use a narrowed definition when convenient to say things like "I can't be racist!" when their words and opinions are clearly hateful and prejudiced regardless. Ignorance, contempt and vindictive hatred are different things that in some cases require different methods to address them.

In any case, I started this out of a distaste for those claims that "you don't know you're racist". People throw "racist" at others far too often, even simply because someone's ideas of what is and isn't effective as a way to deal with problems differ. I understand that a huge portion of minority populations are struggling in a number of ways, and that there are a lot of people out there with all kinds of horrible opinions about such minorities. But my opinions on what is and isn't likely to work differs, as does my opinion on where one draws the line between when a policy can truly be defined as "racist" or not. But just because I don't necessarily consider a policy to be racist doesn't mean I consider the same policy to be good. Whether a black person's suffering is a result of race or class doesn't change his suffering or the desire to help him get out of that position. But just because a person doesn't define a certain situation in terms of race or doesn't agree with a particular effort some other person or group is taking to help people of a particular race doesn't mean the person is racist. And these days some people really take it too far. I've seen people list out "microaggressions" and other things that "prove" a person is racist that, upon even a light examination, eliminates anything you can do, to the point that doing something or FAILING to do that same thing both are demonstrations of it.

[Cloudedmind]

Man, I really needed a good laugh today.