My theory on Mangekyo Sharingan's weakness/drawback

[Deth moad ue]

[ANIME]
So the user essentially creates/controls a world of torture for the victim. I think that it is more taxing the longer the torture is made to last for the victim. When Itachi used Mange on Sasuke (twice now) i think the longest he made him seem to suffer was 24 hours.

Itachi seemed fine after.

He hit Kakashi for a 72 hour torture session and seemed to be having twitchy eye problems right after.

I also think that the time elapse (72 hours in the span of a second) applies to the user of Mangekyo sharingan. It would make sense to have be there to administer torture the entire time. The harder it is on the victim, the harder it must be on the user. In other words, kakashi was (by standards of time felt, not actual time elapsed) tortured for 72 hours straight. Itachi tortured him for 72 hours straight.

Being awake and focused on doing that to someone for 72 hours would be quite taxing.

What are you all's thoughts on this?

[lotus_lee]

Yea, his problem is probably sleep, or maybe not enough Mangos to form the move.

[Kayess]

I don't think that Itachi is with Kakashi for the 72 hours. I think he just determines the punishment, how it will be carried out.. and then the jutsu takes effect. If you think about it, 2 of the punishments were very repeatitious... meaning it could just be a loop of a single command.

[CyberPunk]

it appears to be a very, very draining move which leads me to believe that itachi is indeed present in his created world for the chosen duration of time the genjutsu is active.

[Bflip]

It was WAAY more than 72 hours, wasn't it? Like after a few MINUTES of torture, Itachi finally said 71 hours, 59 minutes, and 59 seconds remaining.

[Deth moad ue]

Originally Posted by The Small One

It's kind of obvious, isn't it?
You can't interact with someone for a specific time, if you don't live through this time...

It seems obvious to me, but we are not the only people with opnions.

This also makes me wonder, is mangekyo sharingan taxing due to chakra use from the jutsu itself, or the length of time the jutsu is made to last? Both? I guess i'm taking a somewhat formulaic approach to jutsus here...

[Kayess]

Originally Posted by CyberPunk

it appears to be a very, very draining move which leads me to believe that itachi is indeed present in his created world for the chosen duration of time the genjutsu is active.

If you actually think about it, it would be really dumb if Itachi did have to keep with Kakashi for the 72 hours. Not only would it make him physically tired (aka need to sleep)... it would also make him lose complete focus in the fight.. and lose any to all momentum he once carried (psychological momentum)... I prefer to think that Ninjas are not complete and utter morons, so I am going to assume that Itachi, the great ninja genius that he is, would not use such a stupid technique if he did infact have to "stay" with Kakashi.

[CyberPunk]

not dumb, logical; and you further proved my point. that's exactly why itachi was so tired after using those moves and had to 'rest his body'. i guess that's just the price you have to pay to utilize probably the most devastating technique you can do to someone.

[Kayess]

Originally Posted by CyberPunk

not dumb, logical; and you further proved my point. that's exactly why itachi was so tired after using those moves and had to 'rest his body'. i guess that's just the price you have to pay to utilize probably the most devastating technique you can do to someone.

How is it logical for a looped event in a world require your constant attention?

Lets use the clock as an example. Every second, the second counter moves up one. This is based on a looped process. When I use a clock, I am not there each second of its use making the next second come. I set it, and it goes ahead with its job.

Same thing with the underworld Genjutsu. It makes MOST sense if he just sets the actions which will happen.. the duration.. and then the genjutsu does its job.

[CyberPunk]

there really is no point in arguing since there's obviously no way i can dissuade you and likewise. but just like a clock has a battery or weights to power it, the genjutsu has itachi. he can't just leave it alone. it's a technique that requires his attention. why else would he be so dead tired?

[FireBorn]

Although it would make more sense if Itachi didn't have to stay in there for 72 hours, we really don't know the facts, so arguing is rather pointless.

[Genei Killua]

I believe it was said that Itachi could have killed Kakashi with his move (as in-- he chose not to) so we don't know how 'long' Itachi would have to make it for that effect. It could be he could kill someone in the Mangekyou world in a relative minute, therefore dismissing any sort of potential weakness or drawback of it. In essence, this would mean that any weaknesses made would be of the sort that arise purely from Itachi's arrogance (wanting to prove to Itachi who the real masta of the sharingan is) or plan (making Sasuke follow him by mental torture.)

[Kayess]

Originally Posted by CyberPunk

there really is no point in arguing since there's obviously no way i can dissuade you and likewise. but just like a clock has a battery or weights to power it, the genjutsu has itachi. he can't just leave it alone. it's a technique that requires his attention. why else would he be so dead tired?

.... Wow.. you haven't followed the series much have you? There has been NUMEROUS times in the series wherein a character uses a strong jutsu and is dead tired afterwards. Remember after Naruto first summoned Gamabunta? He was in the hospital resting for 3 days. Kakashi did a couple water jutsu, used the sharingan, and did a genjutsu.. and was dead tired after that.

And!! Itachi wasn't even dead tired after using the underworld genjutsu twice and the black flame jutsu... he STILL had enough strength to escape.

[omegastar]

And!! Itachi wasn't even dead tired after using the underworld genjutsu twice and the black flame jutsu... he STILL had enough strength to escape.

Just like Jiraiya can do two rasengan with one hand each(dumb statement), without even sweating, I bet itachi has a reaaaally vast amount of chakra. That, or he has a lot of stamina to stay active for long time.

[FireBorn]

Originally Posted by Kayess

.... Wow.. you haven't followed the series much have you? There has been NUMEROUS times in the series wherein a character uses a strong jutsu and is dead tired afterwards. Remember after Naruto first summoned Gamabunta? He was in the hospital resting for 3 days.

Well, in the same day he completely depleted his own Chakra pool, after that he summoned Gamabunta using Kyuubi's chakra. Then he stayed on Gama's head for a whole day if memory serves..

If what you said was true, though, the battle between Naruto & Gaara wouldn't make much sense.

[socomberetta]

I think the Tsukiyomi allows Itachi to create some sort of mental connection with the opponent, where his consciousness or part of it enters the mind of the person. From there, he can choose how he'll attack or torture the person. I agree with CyberPunk, that Itachi has to be in that world for the duration of the torture or attack.

The reason why he's so tired or has to rest his body after performing the Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi is because they take up a lot of chakra to use.

[Deth moad ue]

Originally Posted by Kayess

.... Wow.. you haven't followed the series much have you? There has been NUMEROUS times in the series wherein a character uses a strong jutsu and is dead tired afterwards. Remember after Naruto first summoned Gamabunta? He was in the hospital resting for 3 days. Kakashi did a couple water jutsu, used the sharingan, and did a genjutsu.. and was dead tired after that.

And!! Itachi wasn't even dead tired after using the underworld genjutsu twice and the black flame jutsu... he STILL had enough strength to escape.

ok...nartuo stayed on top of gamas head for a day....no ropes, no gorilla glue...just physical stamina...tell me that isn't draining. not to mention he had expended a good amount of chakra.

Sharingan itself takes chakra, but since kakashi sint built for it (not uchiha blood) it drains him far more than it would itachi or sasuke....not to mention he copied jutsu (even more taxing) and performed several water jutsu, chidori, AND a summon, He can only do chidori 3 - 4 times...but with all the other stuff as well (and i've been lead to believe that even for an uchiha, copying jutsus takes a lot of chakra) it's no wonder he was drained.

I still hold my opinion...EVERY jutsu has drawback...and how convincing would your torture be if it just reset after10 minutes? painful, yes. convincing enough to break the spirit? no......

[historyX]

I Don't think Itatchi has to stay with his victim while he uses Tsukiyomi!

He just "simply" creates a world where everything is how he wishes it to be. It's quite like a klock. If I would build a klock and make it tick, I know it will keep on ticking even if I don't continuosly watch it. Itatchi also creates the world and the events in it in his mind. And his creation will hapen as he has planned. He could have just created a world with Sasuke stabbing Kakashi if he would have wanted (that would be part of mental torture, making your friends harm you) no need for him to stab.

Certainly, the longer the time and the complicated the world/events are the more it will consume chakra. Like the more complex is 3D videogame the more it needs power to run it. But this chakra consumption would be not a simple equation. One of the main factors would propably be time. Klock will also stop when the batteries are drain.

so... did i convert any people?

and again this is just me thinking with my tiny brain...

[Kayess]

Originally Posted by Deth moad ue

ok...nartuo stayed on top of gamas head for a day....no ropes, no gorilla glue...just physical stamina...tell me that isn't draining. not to mention he had expended a good amount of chakra.

Sharingan itself takes chakra, but since kakashi sint built for it (not uchiha blood) it drains him far more than it would itachi or sasuke....not to mention he copied jutsu (even more taxing) and performed several water jutsu, chidori, AND a summon, He can only do chidori 3 - 4 times...but with all the other stuff as well (and i've been lead to believe that even for an uchiha, copying jutsus takes a lot of chakra) it's no wonder he was drained.

I still hold my opinion...EVERY jutsu has drawback...and how convincing would your torture be if it just reset after10 minutes? painful, yes. convincing enough to break the spirit? no......

Big No-No there. Never associate anime filler with actual events. Naruto just summoned Gama, had a BREIF conversation then passed out. All the "staying on the head" stuff were filler.

As for your next comment about it not breaking your spirit.... Itachi stated that he would be CONTINUOUSLY stabbed by katanas for 72 hours... And that is all that is shown in the manga, multiple stabbings. You cannot assume he would mix it up when he says it is repetitious. I dare you to endure incredible pain, feeling as if you are at the brink of dying for 3 entire days, without a single moment pause... and not have your spirit broken. Remember, Itachi controls the world, Kakashi cannot even build a tolerance to the pain.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Deth moad ue

ok...nartuo stayed on top of gamas head for a day....no ropes, no gorilla glue...just physical stamina...tell me that isn't draining. not to mention he had expended a good amount of chakra.

That was just an anime filler and a rather stupid one.
Naruto feinted almost immediately after the summon of Gamabunta who never tried to make fall him in the first place in the manga.

And yeah I don't think that the main problem of the Tsukiyomi is that it costs much chakra, but rather about the necessary concentration.

The concentration to create a world like that must be incredible, and the more times Itachi tortures the mind of someone inside this illusion world, the more time his mind must be concentrated, if Itachi took Kakashi during 3 days, his mind must be concentrated on the Tsukiyomi during 3 days as well at least to maintain the Genjutsu.
And if you're exhausted by this gigantic concentration, to create this world once again is increasingly dangerous because you will end up slackening your attention... and maybe snape your own mind inside the world of Tsukiyomi.

His own Genjutsu could torn him out of reality and that could be why he mustn't use it too much.

It was precisely said that this jutsu is dangerous for the user, not just very tiring.
When Itachi 'pushed' Sasuke into the world of Tsukiyomi (the day he annihilated their clan) during just few second, he looked just fine after that and he didn't look too tired either the second time.
But when he used it during days to break the mind of Kakashi who was using the Sharingan he looked tired during a short time.

It's not that I think that the Tsukiyomi doesn't use much chakra, just that it's not why it's dangerous to use it too often, even with 10x more chakra, it wouldn't be possible to use 10x more Tsukiyomi.