AnimeSuki Forums

broken270 · 2011-09-04, 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiibi

I've got a FIGURE of Noumi. Adorable. I do recall actually squeeing the first time I saw a picture of her. As for Etna, Flonne pwns her ass in moe.

I second this statement.

Eater of All · 2011-09-04, 17:13

Spoiler for Votes:

Fire? Just some simple reordering of atoms.

ion475 · 2011-09-04, 18:19

Quote:

You're mean... what did Holo-tan ever do to you?

Nothing. It's just a sad, hard truth that Holo is not exactly getting much love while Kuroneko is purely moe and is my #2, nothing more.

Hey, at least you got me to vote for her in some matches. I mean, normally I wouldn't even bother voting for her, since I'm way too neutral on Holo...

~Yami~ · 2011-09-04, 19:04

ARENA 01: [Hiiragi Kagami] Shirai Kuroko
ARENA 02: Holo [Gokō Ruri (Kuroneko)]
ARENA 03: Sakagami Tomoyo [Aisaka Taiga]
ARENA 04: [Misaka Mikoto] Eucliwood Hellscythe
ARENA 05: [Tōsaka Rin] Kotobuki Tsumugi
ARENA 06: [Fate Testarossa] Kasugano Sora
ARENA 07: [Fujibayashi Kyō] Hirasawa Ui
ARENA 08: Konjiki no Yami [C.C.]
ARENA 09: [Tachibana Kanade] Nakano Azusa
ARENA 10: Senjōgahara Hitagi [Charlotte Dunois]
ARENA 11: Yui [Saber]
ARENA 12: Kuroi Mato [Asahina Mikuru]
ARENA 13: [Katsura Hinagiku] Akiyama Mio
ARENA 14: Sengoku Nadeko [Suzumiya Haruhi]
ARENA 15: [Nakamura Yuri] Kōsaka Kirino
ARENA 16: Index L. Prohibitorum [Shiina]
ARENA 17: Hirasawa Yui [Victorique de Blois]
ARENA 18: [Seraphim] Sanzen'in Nagi
ARENA 19: [Shinonono Hōki] Shiina Mafuyu
ARENA 20: Nagato Yuki [Shana]
ARENA 21: [Laura Bodewig] Nymph
ARENA 22: [Furukawa Nagisa] Last Order
ARENA 23: [Louise Vallière] Aragaki Ayase
ARENA 24: Haruna [Iwasawa Asami]
ARENA 25: Izumi Konata [Huang Lingyin]
ARENA 26: Etna [Nōmi Kudryavka]

Shimapan · 2011-09-04, 20:50

Ruby Period — Round 6

ARENA 01: Hiiragi Kagami [Shirai Kuroko]
ARENA 02: Holo [Gokō Ruri (Kuroneko)]
ARENA 03: Sakagami Tomoyo [Aisaka Taiga]
ARENA 04: [Misaka Mikoto] Eucliwood Hellscythe
ARENA 05: Tōsaka Rin [Kotobuki Tsumugi]
ARENA 06: [Fate Testarossa] Kasugano Sora
ARENA 07: [Fujibayashi Kyō] Hirasawa Ui
ARENA 08: [Konjiki no Yami] C.C.
ARENA 09: Tachibana Kanade [Nakano Azusa]
ARENA 10: Senjōgahara Hitagi [Charlotte Dunois]
ARENA 11: [Yui] Saber
ARENA 12: Kuroi Mato [Asahina Mikuru]
ARENA 13: Katsura Hinagiku [Akiyama Mio]
ARENA 14: Sengoku Nadeko [Suzumiya Haruhi]
ARENA 15: [Nakamura Yuri] Kōsaka Kirino
ARENA 16: [Index L. Prohibitorum] Shiina
ARENA 17: [Hirasawa Yui] Victorique de Blois
ARENA 18: [Seraphim] Sanzen'in Nagi
ARENA 19: [Shinonono Hōki] Shiina Mafuyu
ARENA 20: [Nagato Yuki] Shana
ARENA 21: Laura Bodewig [Nymph]
ARENA 22: [Furukawa Nagisa] Last Order
ARENA 23: Louise Vallière [Aragaki Ayase]
ARENA 24: [Haruna] Iwasawa Asami
ARENA 25: Izumi Konata [Huang Lingyin]
ARENA 26: [Etna] Nōmi Kudryavka

Ahasuerus · 2011-09-04, 23:06

ARENA 01: [Hiiragi Kagami] Shirai Kuroko
ARENA 02: [Holo] Gokō Ruri (Kuroneko)
ARENA 03: Sakagami Tomoyo [Aisaka Taiga]
ARENA 04: [Misaka Mikoto] Eucliwood Hellscythe
ARENA 05: [Tōsaka Rin] Kotobuki Tsumugi
ARENA 06: [Fate Testarossa] Kasugano Sora
ARENA 07: [Fujibayashi Kyō] Hirasawa Ui
ARENA 08: [Konjiki no Yami] C.C.
ARENA 09: Tachibana Kanade [Nakano Azusa]
ARENA 10: [Senjōgahara Hitagi] Charlotte Dunois
ARENA 11: Yui [Saber]
ARENA 12: Kuroi Mato [Asahina Mikuru]
ARENA 13: Katsura Hinagiku [Akiyama Mio]
ARENA 14: [Sengoku Nadeko] Suzumiya Haruhi
ARENA 15: Nakamura Yuri [Kōsaka Kirino]
ARENA 16: [Index L. Prohibitorum] Shiina
ARENA 17: Hirasawa Yui [Victorique de Blois]
ARENA 18: Seraphim [Sanzen'in Nagi]
ARENA 19: [Shinonono Hōki] Shiina Mafuyu
ARENA 20: Nagato Yuki [Shana]
ARENA 21: [Laura Bodewig] Nymph
ARENA 22: [Furukawa Nagisa] Last Order
ARENA 23: [Louise Vallière] Aragaki Ayase
ARENA 24: Haruna [Iwasawa Asami]
ARENA 25: Izumi Konata [Huang Lingyin]
ARENA 26: Etna [Nōmi Kudryavka]

Sackett · 2011-09-05, 00:20

I finally broke down and joined the ISML forum so I could post my comments on the proposed changes over there. But since there was some intense discussion here to I figured I better put my idea post up here as well.

First: I still think the best way to divide the Veterans from the Newcomers is by labeling any character that has previously appeared in ISML Regular season as a Veteran, and any character that has not as a Newcomer.

I think this has a number of large advantages over the current idea:

It greatly simplifies qualification standards and thus makes the nomination processing far easier. Eliminates any arguments about edge cases too.
It ensures that there are always 36 new faces every year. Since the primary reason for this change is to ensure new faces I think this is better than a multi-year airtime based qualification that will end up with a bunch of repeat appearances in the Newcomer section.
It provides an opportunity for an old character that has never appeared in ISML before to gain enough support (possibly through new material) to appear in the newcomer section, thus removing the need for any "return" rule.
It removes the need for shifting the "newcomer" time frame around in future years which requires reviewing and relearning the qualification standards each year during the nomination phase.

This idea does have one main drawback: There are only 108 characters that have appeared in the Regular season.

I don't think this is as big a problem as it's being made out to be. I think it could be turned into an advantage. During the preliminaries next year, declare that all characters that have previously appeared in ISML will compete in the Veteran preliminaries without the need for any nominations. This can have two benefits:

It will probably draw several former voters in ISML to come back in the interest of backing their favorite character who hasn't been qualifying for the Regular season.
More importantly, it will free up nomination slots for everyone to nominate only characters that haven't appeared in ISML. I think we'll get more interesting nominations if people don't feel they need to spend their nomination slots on girls that have already participated in ISML. (Note this is one of the common chronic complaints of voters).

Of course, as 36 girls will be added to the Veterans group each year the Veterans group will soon need to go through it's own nomination period. Which is probably a good thing. But one or two years where all the Veterans compete in the prelims wouldn't be that terrible of a thing to happen. This would also open the possibility in the future to separate the Veterans and Newcomer nominations and have the Veteran nominations be selected from a list (which would greatly cut down on the time needed to process them).

To sum up: Easier for the ISML Staff. Easier for the voters. More fun for those who want to nominate new faces. More fun for those that want to vote for previous participants.

Second: The main flaw is the lack of cross competition between Newcomers and Veterans during the Regular Season. Other then the necklace matches when will this happen? Necklace matches are fine for the powerhouses, but what about the mid-level girl who will never reach the necklace match? Does she never get to face her competitors in the Veterans/Newcomer division?

I have a suggested plan. Instead of making the Necklace match the top three from each division plus one wildcard (trying to mimic the current format), just make the Necklace Match be the top four from each division. (8 girls total).

Then have similar four Veterans vs four Newcomers for each lower tier. So the 5 through 8 slots face off in their own exhibition match. The 9 through 12, 13 through 16, and so on. This will mean a total of 8 matches (8 girls each) in addition to the Necklace Match. (I'd still like an exhibition match as well- I do enjoy seeing the old characters).

Have the winners of each of these lower tier matches be the "handmaidens" to the Necklace winner. (Or whatever you want to call it: ladies in waiting, bridesmaids, companions, etc). As a reward they get a group picture with the Necklace winner. (Necklace winner still gets an individual portrait).

Is that too much work for ISML artists? I know it's be more work, but it'd be very nice for a couple reasons:

As pointed out it'd be a way to get more inter-league competition between Newcomers and Veterans
It'd be a way to keep voters interested even if their favorites fall out of Necklace contention (this is another big source of voter drop-off)

There is a complication however. If we keep the rule that Necklace winners cannot compete for a second Necklace, we probably don't want to bump previous Necklace winners down to the lower Tier handmaiden competition (they'd dominate and make it less fun). We also need to decide if we want to allow a handmaiden to compete again for second handmaiden position.

Option 1: We allow previous handmaidens to compete again. Necklace winners from previous rounds are not permitted to compete. This means we will be short one competitor after round one, two after round two, and so on.
Solution: We enter the winners of the final exhibition match (Necklace round) as the replacement competitors in the lowest Tier. Since this match has no impact on the Regular Season it's not a problem with the Round Robin, but it will add "new faces" mid season, while also making the exhibition matches a little more interesting. Since there is a final exhibition match each Necklace round there will always be the right amount of exhibition winners to take the place of excluded Necklace winners.
Option 2: We do not allow previous handmaidens to compete again. Excluding 8 previous handmaidens would allow us to just drop the lowest Tier. If one of the previous handmaiden winners is in the Necklace match (as is likely) this leaves 8 excluded girls each round, (7 handmaidens plus the previous Necklace winner). This has the problem however that a previous handmaiden winner might not be in the Necklace Match. If that happens we'd have 9 excluded girls. We could then just implement Option 1 in that specific scenario, adjusting as needed through out the season. This still leaves another major complication though. Which is that the excluded girls might not be evenly distributed among the Veterans and Newcomers leagues. What if the Veterans sweep the Necklace Match rounds? Or the same for the Newcomers? Any uneven distribution makes setting up matches even harder. (This is not a problem under Option 1, as the exhibition winner can replace either a Veteran or a Newcomer). Even if we could figure out a way to make it work it would mean the Aquamarine Necklace winner would have 8 handmaidens, and the Ruby Necklace winner only one.

Looking at the two options makes me think we'd be better off with Option 1. If the handmaiden winners could be made more luck dependent (such as involving SDO), then it probably wouldn't be a problem if we had a few repeat handmaiden winners.

Triple_R · 2011-09-05, 00:55

@Sackett

I definitely agree with you on your first suggestion. It does make for an useful and clear-cut standard that will deal with any and all potential "fairness" issues. It also gives people more incentive to "come back next year" as you say.

Now, as for your second suggestion, I'm going to have to give that more thought. It's the more speculative of the two - dare I say more radical? - and so I'll have to reflect on it a bit before I decide if I support it myself or not.

One potential problem I see is that you might have late-season Necklace finale matches that closely resemble early-season 8-way Exhibition matches. Basically, as the number of Necklace winners builds up, you'll get more and more weak Tier 1s/strong Tier 2s shifting into Necklace finale matches, and these characters will have already faced one another in earlier Necklace round exhibition matches. Already knowing how these characters matched up in early-season Exhibition matches could take much of the interest away from late-season Necklace finale matches, imo.

weaponX · 2011-09-05, 01:34

ARENA 01: [Hiiragi Kagami] Shirai Kuroko
ARENA 02: Holo [Gokō Ruri (Kuroneko)]
ARENA 03: [Sakagami Tomoyo] Aisaka Taiga
ARENA 04: [Misaka Mikoto] Eucliwood Hellscythe
ARENA 05: [Tōsaka Rin] Kotobuki Tsumugi
ARENA 06: [Fate Testarossa] Kasugano Sora
ARENA 07: [Fujibayashi Kyō] Hirasawa Ui
ARENA 08: [Konjiki no Yami] C.C.
ARENA 09: [Tachibana Kanade] Nakano Azusa
ARENA 10: Senjōgahara Hitagi [Abstained] Charlotte Dunois
ARENA 11: Yui [Saber]
ARENA 12: Kuroi Mato [Asahina Mikuru]
ARENA 13: Katsura Hinagiku [Abstained] Akiyama Mio
ARENA 14: Sengoku Nadeko [Suzumiya Haruhi]
ARENA 15: [Nakamura Yuri] Kōsaka Kirino
ARENA 16: Index L. Prohibitorum [Shiina]
ARENA 17: Hirasawa Yui [Victorique de Blois]
ARENA 18: Seraphim [Abstained] Sanzen'in Nagi
ARENA 19: Shinonono Hōki [Abstained] Shiina Mafuyu
ARENA 20: [Nagato Yuki] Shana
ARENA 21: Laura Bodewig [Abstained] Nymph
ARENA 22: [Furukawa Nagisa] Last Order
ARENA 23: Louise Vallière [Abstained] Aragaki Ayase
ARENA 24: Haruna [Iwasawa Asami]
ARENA 25: [Izumi Konata] Huang Lingyin
ARENA 26: Etna [Abstained] Nōmi Kudryavka

Crisu · 2011-09-05, 14:03

@Sackett, thank you for your input. The idea to limit veterans to previous appearances has a lot of positives, but I feel as if it's too restrictive on the veteran division. Both the new and old divisions should be able to grow in their own way to keep things dynamic for their target audiences. Using this limitation means the veteran division becomes completely dependent on the newcomer division for new faces. Because of the small size of the newcomer division and the annual influx of new characters, some older faces may never make it through this bottleneck.

I think edge cases will be few. It shouldn't be too much of a hassle to pick a common-sense resolution for characters who are on the cusp of qualification via airtime. Most of them should be clear-cut veteran or newcomer on the two-year rule we currently have.
With the currently proposed rule, the typical maximum appearance for any newcomer is two consecutive years. In rare cases will this be 3 or 4 when a series gains new material after a sufficiently long gap. And I expect more one-shots anyway because hype will die down for most characters, and there will be new faces to replace them anyway by the following year.
If we leave the veteran division open to its own nomination and preliminary phase, characters don't have to fight for a newcomer seat just to achieve a veteran seat. We don't intend for the veteran division to be a "hall of fame" of sorts. It's more that we've noticed a trend of how some fans have become too buy to keep up with new anime, so all the knowledge they have are older series. And there are some older series who have been under-represented in ISML. If we separate the newcomers into their own world, it opens up more room for classic characters to have their chance. The newcomer division can still have the fast-paced feeling and high turnover ratios that some people prefer. And voters can decide to participate in one or the other division or both.
If we do shift the newcomer time frame, this change is at least just once a year only, or less often. I don't see it as a burden, because heck, we've already changed at least one thing about ISML every single year since 2008.

The nomination phase will be made large enough to accomodate the increased sizes of the prelim phases. I'm thinking just 20 slots straight up rather than 10 vet and 10 new. We don't want to burden the voter for having to decide right then. After we tally it we'll start applying the rule from the top of the list until we get 120 for both divisions. Of course the voter shouldn't be completely oblivious to the qualification rule, and we'll print that clearly on the ballot so people don't list just only newcomers and we end up with a very skewed nomination results set.

melange · 2011-09-05, 14:11

I posted this in the ismlforum but repeating it here (with some minor adjustments as some sentences addressed things that happened in that forum):-

Quote:

Sackett,

We did have quite long discussions/arguments about an appearances vs a time-based rule to separate veterans and newcomers, and I was one of those who argued for an appearances-based rule at first. However, there are some issues with using appearances as things stand right now.

We actually went through 4 different sets of possible numbers to use in prelims (84, 96, 108, 120) and all of numbers below 120 needed some sort of wildcard system to select some of the characters, while 120 has a very clear winners/topX-of-this-group/bracket/etc make it in. It is after much discussion that 120 was determined as the ideal number for prelims between having to use a wildcard system and overburdening our creative staff with hundreds of avatars.

Secondly, while 108 looks like a nice round number now, the 'appearances' veterans are going to increase year to year (144 in 2013, 180 in 2014), but not in a way that will work 'cleanly' with the ideal prelim number of 120. So for the next couple of years, the number of appearances-veterans will hover in the ambiguous space of being 'too large' for "all-veterans-straight-to-prelims" system and 'too small' as a pool from which to nominate 120 characters from.

At some point when the pool of 'appearances' veterans has grown to a sufficient number, it would then be feasible to use it as a pool to nominate from and we might change it then, but that is something for the future.

Sphire · 2011-09-05, 15:17

@Sackett

I've just briefly gone over your first input, but the first issue that comes to mind is that unfortunately next years Vet division will look very if not wholly similar to this years ISML. And that's kinda boring. The girls in it now will be Vets by your definition, minus some stragglers but then again the pool size is decreased from 50 to 36 anyway. So it seems highly likely we'd just get a repeat of this years ISML.

I think the proposed method of using a cut-off date works well here because we're getting a lot of sequels coming this year and next involving 'Vets' (by ISML def) that that division will have be a decent battle next year. Hopefully.

The 4-year return Vets getting into the newcomer section I'm a bit more hesitant about. I'd prefer they go into the Vet section, since the Vet section will more likely be dryer than the newcomer section at any given time (ie the more characters with new shows the better). Whilst new characters from old shows on the other hand, I don't mind them getting into the newcomer section. In fact I prefer that.

And personally, any league format that takes it's time will lose voters/interest near mid-end season. And pick up during post-season. I think a replacement system would help that, but even that isn't a given.

As for your second input, I think the staff were talking about adding exhibition matches between lower tiered vets and newcomers. And that sounds great. But 8 whole matches like that? And more pointless jewelry? That's kinda overkill to me. Plus one of the charms of exhibition matches should be getting to vote for characters not in the leagues. I know they get a lot of abstains, but so would lower tiered girls anyway.

I will say the post-season looks redundant to me. Like someone else mentioned in the ISML forums. Separating the vets and newcomers initially seems unnecessary. The Tiara tournament kinda loses it's spark since you know it'll be down to the no.1 vet vs the no.1 newcomer (or if one doesn't make the final, even more likely the other gets it). Is just a whole 32 (16 x 16) tournament mixing up vets and newcomers more boring or something? Seems it would be more straight forward at least.

Zeroryoko1974 · 2011-09-05, 19:03

How bout this system. Put them in "conferences" and have a preseason "poll" decide their rankings. Play a 15 match or so "schedule" and then have a Saimoe Championship Series ranking determined by record, strength of schedule and poll ranking. The top two ranked characters face off in the "Tiara Bowl" with the rest of the top 16 selected by representatives of the other bowls, such as the Diamond Bowl, Ruby Bowl, etc etc. Everyone else can be selected to match up in some randomly named bowl, like the KyoAni bowl, or the Harem bowl, etc etc. Sounds like a great system to me.

KholdStare · 2011-09-05, 19:19

There will probably be only one extra "mixed" group match per period, so it won't be overkill.

RegalStar · 2011-09-05, 22:02

I'm laughing like a madman right now.

wontaek · 2011-09-05, 22:15

Hitagi for Ruby anyone?

Ithekro · 2011-09-05, 22:16

By three votes...and it was not China's fault.

I'm happy, but then Yuki is my number 1 "shall never vote against" character.
But I imagine Shana still has a shot a the necklace...though Hina has a shot now too.

hinakatbklyn · 2011-09-05, 22:17

Well, now the necklace race has become alittle more interesting.
- Yuki beat Shana by 3 votes
- Hitagi is leading the necklace race but has to face Shana which could end her period at 6-1
- Hina beat Mio and is still unbeaten??? Excellent. She's next in line for Ruby trailing only Hitagi and is going to face Yui-nyan to try and complete the unbeaten period. Oh why not, she missed her chance last year, go for another necklace while she has the chance.

- Kanade is back to winning by more than 1000
- Yui barely beat Saber. A win is a win, but that's too close
- Yui Hirasawa beat Victorique. Kind of a surprise

KholdStare · 2011-09-05, 22:18

So what was that about Wildcards can't win necklaces?

melange · 2011-09-05, 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by wontaek

Hitagi for Ruby anyone?

Hitagi <3 <3 <3

2011-09-04, 17:13	Link #3662
Eater of All NOM Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Outside the Asylum	Spoiler for Votes: ARENA 01: [Hiiragi Kagami] Shirai Kuroko ARENA 02: Holo [Gokō Ruri (Kuroneko)] ARENA 03: Sakagami Tomoyo [Aisaka Taiga] ARENA 04: Misaka Mikoto [Eucliwood Hellscythe] ARENA 05: [Tōsaka Rin] Kotobuki Tsumugi ARENA 06: [Fate Testarossa] Kasugano Sora ARENA 07: [Fujibayashi Kyō] Hirasawa Ui ARENA 08: [Konjiki no Yami] C.C. ARENA 09: Tachibana Kanade [Nakano Azusa] ARENA 10: Senjōgahara Hitagi [Charlotte Dunois] ARENA 11: [Yui] Saber ARENA 12: Kuroi Mato [Asahina Mikuru] ARENA 13: [Katsura Hinagiku] Akiyama Mio ARENA 14: [Sengoku Nadeko] Suzumiya Haruhi ARENA 15: [Nakamura Yuri] Kōsaka Kirino ARENA 16: [Index L. Prohibitorum] Shiina ARENA 17: Hirasawa Yui [Victorique de Blois] ARENA 18: Seraphim [Sanzen'in Nagi] ARENA 19: Shinonono Hōki [Shiina Mafuyu] ARENA 20: [Nagato Yuki] Shana ARENA 21: Laura Bodewig [Nymph] ARENA 22: [Furukawa Nagisa] Last Order ARENA 23: [Louise Vallière] Aragaki Ayase ARENA 24: [Haruna] Iwasawa Asami ARENA 25: [Izumi Konata] Huang Lingyin ARENA 26: Etna [Nōmi Kudryavka] Fire? Just some simple reordering of atoms. __________________

2011-09-04, 20:50	Link #3665
Shimapan Try me! <3 Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Germany Age: 40	Ruby Period — Round 6 ARENA 01: Hiiragi Kagami [Shirai Kuroko] ARENA 02: Holo [Gokō Ruri (Kuroneko)] ARENA 03: Sakagami Tomoyo [Aisaka Taiga] ARENA 04: [Misaka Mikoto] Eucliwood Hellscythe ARENA 05: Tōsaka Rin [Kotobuki Tsumugi] ARENA 06: [Fate Testarossa] Kasugano Sora ARENA 07: [Fujibayashi Kyō] Hirasawa Ui ARENA 08: [Konjiki no Yami] C.C. ARENA 09: Tachibana Kanade [Nakano Azusa] ARENA 10: Senjōgahara Hitagi [Charlotte Dunois] ARENA 11: [Yui] Saber ARENA 12: Kuroi Mato [Asahina Mikuru] ARENA 13: Katsura Hinagiku [Akiyama Mio] ARENA 14: Sengoku Nadeko [Suzumiya Haruhi] ARENA 15: [Nakamura Yuri] Kōsaka Kirino ARENA 16: [Index L. Prohibitorum] Shiina ARENA 17: [Hirasawa Yui] Victorique de Blois ARENA 18: [Seraphim] Sanzen'in Nagi ARENA 19: [Shinonono Hōki] Shiina Mafuyu ARENA 20: [Nagato Yuki] Shana ARENA 21: Laura Bodewig [Nymph] ARENA 22: [Furukawa Nagisa] Last Order ARENA 23: Louise Vallière [Aragaki Ayase] ARENA 24: [Haruna] Iwasawa Asami ARENA 25: Izumi Konata [Huang Lingyin] ARENA 26: [Etna] Nōmi Kudryavka __________________

2011-09-04, 23:06	Link #3666
Ahasuerus UNBOUND-ed Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Oakland, CA Age: 71	ARENA 01: [Hiiragi Kagami] Shirai Kuroko ARENA 02: [Holo] Gokō Ruri (Kuroneko) ARENA 03: Sakagami Tomoyo [Aisaka Taiga] ARENA 04: [Misaka Mikoto] Eucliwood Hellscythe ARENA 05: [Tōsaka Rin] Kotobuki Tsumugi ARENA 06: [Fate Testarossa] Kasugano Sora ARENA 07: [Fujibayashi Kyō] Hirasawa Ui ARENA 08: [Konjiki no Yami] C.C. ARENA 09: Tachibana Kanade [Nakano Azusa] ARENA 10: [Senjōgahara Hitagi] Charlotte Dunois ARENA 11: Yui [Saber] ARENA 12: Kuroi Mato [Asahina Mikuru] ARENA 13: Katsura Hinagiku [Akiyama Mio] ARENA 14: [Sengoku Nadeko] Suzumiya Haruhi ARENA 15: Nakamura Yuri [Kōsaka Kirino] ARENA 16: [Index L. Prohibitorum] Shiina ARENA 17: Hirasawa Yui [Victorique de Blois] ARENA 18: Seraphim [Sanzen'in Nagi] ARENA 19: [Shinonono Hōki] Shiina Mafuyu ARENA 20: Nagato Yuki [Shana] ARENA 21: [Laura Bodewig] Nymph ARENA 22: [Furukawa Nagisa] Last Order ARENA 23: [Louise Vallière] Aragaki Ayase ARENA 24: Haruna [Iwasawa Asami] ARENA 25: Izumi Konata [Huang Lingyin] ARENA 26: Etna [Nōmi Kudryavka] __________________ MyAnimeList \| Alastor's Reflection

2011-09-05, 00:20	Link #3667
Sackett Cross Game - I need more Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: I've moved around the American West. I've lived in Oregon, Washington, Utah, and Oklahoma Age: 44	I finally broke down and joined the ISML forum so I could post my comments on the proposed changes over there. But since there was some intense discussion here to I figured I better put my idea post up here as well. First: I still think the best way to divide the Veterans from the Newcomers is by labeling any character that has previously appeared in ISML Regular season as a Veteran, and any character that has not as a Newcomer. I think this has a number of large advantages over the current idea: It greatly simplifies qualification standards and thus makes the nomination processing far easier. Eliminates any arguments about edge cases too. It ensures that there are always 36 new faces every year. Since the primary reason for this change is to ensure new faces I think this is better than a multi-year airtime based qualification that will end up with a bunch of repeat appearances in the Newcomer section. It provides an opportunity for an old character that has never appeared in ISML before to gain enough support (possibly through new material) to appear in the newcomer section, thus removing the need for any "return" rule. It removes the need for shifting the "newcomer" time frame around in future years which requires reviewing and relearning the qualification standards each year during the nomination phase. This idea does have one main drawback: There are only 108 characters that have appeared in the Regular season. I don't think this is as big a problem as it's being made out to be. I think it could be turned into an advantage. During the preliminaries next year, declare that all characters that have previously appeared in ISML will compete in the Veteran preliminaries without the need for any nominations. This can have two benefits: It will probably draw several former voters in ISML to come back in the interest of backing their favorite character who hasn't been qualifying for the Regular season. More importantly, it will free up nomination slots for everyone to nominate only characters that haven't appeared in ISML. I think we'll get more interesting nominations if people don't feel they need to spend their nomination slots on girls that have already participated in ISML. (Note this is one of the common chronic complaints of voters). Of course, as 36 girls will be added to the Veterans group each year the Veterans group will soon need to go through it's own nomination period. Which is probably a good thing. But one or two years where all the Veterans compete in the prelims wouldn't be that terrible of a thing to happen. This would also open the possibility in the future to separate the Veterans and Newcomer nominations and have the Veteran nominations be selected from a list (which would greatly cut down on the time needed to process them). To sum up: Easier for the ISML Staff. Easier for the voters. More fun for those who want to nominate new faces. More fun for those that want to vote for previous participants. Second: The main flaw is the lack of cross competition between Newcomers and Veterans during the Regular Season. Other then the necklace matches when will this happen? Necklace matches are fine for the powerhouses, but what about the mid-level girl who will never reach the necklace match? Does she never get to face her competitors in the Veterans/Newcomer division? I have a suggested plan. Instead of making the Necklace match the top three from each division plus one wildcard (trying to mimic the current format), just make the Necklace Match be the top four from each division. (8 girls total). Then have similar four Veterans vs four Newcomers for each lower tier. So the 5 through 8 slots face off in their own exhibition match. The 9 through 12, 13 through 16, and so on. This will mean a total of 8 matches (8 girls each) in addition to the Necklace Match. (I'd still like an exhibition match as well- I do enjoy seeing the old characters). Have the winners of each of these lower tier matches be the "handmaidens" to the Necklace winner. (Or whatever you want to call it: ladies in waiting, bridesmaids, companions, etc). As a reward they get a group picture with the Necklace winner. (Necklace winner still gets an individual portrait). Is that too much work for ISML artists? I know it's be more work, but it'd be very nice for a couple reasons: As pointed out it'd be a way to get more inter-league competition between Newcomers and Veterans It'd be a way to keep voters interested even if their favorites fall out of Necklace contention (this is another big source of voter drop-off) There is a complication however. If we keep the rule that Necklace winners cannot compete for a second Necklace, we probably don't want to bump previous Necklace winners down to the lower Tier handmaiden competition (they'd dominate and make it less fun). We also need to decide if we want to allow a handmaiden to compete again for second handmaiden position. Option 1: We allow previous handmaidens to compete again. Necklace winners from previous rounds are not permitted to compete. This means we will be short one competitor after round one, two after round two, and so on. Solution: We enter the winners of the final exhibition match (Necklace round) as the replacement competitors in the lowest Tier. Since this match has no impact on the Regular Season it's not a problem with the Round Robin, but it will add "new faces" mid season, while also making the exhibition matches a little more interesting. Since there is a final exhibition match each Necklace round there will always be the right amount of exhibition winners to take the place of excluded Necklace winners. Option 2: We do not allow previous handmaidens to compete again. Excluding 8 previous handmaidens would allow us to just drop the lowest Tier. If one of the previous handmaiden winners is in the Necklace match (as is likely) this leaves 8 excluded girls each round, (7 handmaidens plus the previous Necklace winner). This has the problem however that a previous handmaiden winner might not be in the Necklace Match. If that happens we'd have 9 excluded girls. We could then just implement Option 1 in that specific scenario, adjusting as needed through out the season. This still leaves another major complication though. Which is that the excluded girls might not be evenly distributed among the Veterans and Newcomers leagues. What if the Veterans sweep the Necklace Match rounds? Or the same for the Newcomers? Any uneven distribution makes setting up matches even harder. (This is not a problem under Option 1, as the exhibition winner can replace either a Veteran or a Newcomer). Even if we could figure out a way to make it work it would mean the Aquamarine Necklace winner would have 8 handmaidens, and the Ruby Necklace winner only one. Looking at the two options makes me think we'd be better off with Option 1. If the handmaiden winners could be made more luck dependent (such as involving SDO), then it probably wouldn't be a problem if we had a few repeat handmaiden winners. __________________ Cross Game - A Story of Love, Life, Death - and Baseball. What more could you want?

2011-09-05, 00:55	Link #3668
Triple_R Senior Member Author Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Newfoundland, Canada Age: 42	@Sackett I definitely agree with you on your first suggestion. It does make for an useful and clear-cut standard that will deal with any and all potential "fairness" issues. It also gives people more incentive to "come back next year" as you say. Now, as for your second suggestion, I'm going to have to give that more thought. It's the more speculative of the two - dare I say more radical? - and so I'll have to reflect on it a bit before I decide if I support it myself or not. One potential problem I see is that you might have late-season Necklace finale matches that closely resemble early-season 8-way Exhibition matches. Basically, as the number of Necklace winners builds up, you'll get more and more weak Tier 1s/strong Tier 2s shifting into Necklace finale matches, and these characters will have already faced one another in earlier Necklace round exhibition matches. Already knowing how these characters matched up in early-season Exhibition matches could take much of the interest away from late-season Necklace finale matches, imo. __________________

2011-09-04, 19:04	Link #3664
~Yami~ a random Indonesian otaku Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Xanadu Age: 32	ARENA 01: [Hiiragi Kagami] Shirai Kuroko ARENA 02: Holo [Gokō Ruri (Kuroneko)] ARENA 03: Sakagami Tomoyo [Aisaka Taiga] ARENA 04: [Misaka Mikoto] Eucliwood Hellscythe ARENA 05: [Tōsaka Rin] Kotobuki Tsumugi ARENA 06: [Fate Testarossa] Kasugano Sora ARENA 07: [Fujibayashi Kyō] Hirasawa Ui ARENA 08: Konjiki no Yami [C.C.] ARENA 09: [Tachibana Kanade] Nakano Azusa ARENA 10: Senjōgahara Hitagi [Charlotte Dunois] ARENA 11: Yui [Saber] ARENA 12: Kuroi Mato [Asahina Mikuru] ARENA 13: [Katsura Hinagiku] Akiyama Mio ARENA 14: Sengoku Nadeko [Suzumiya Haruhi] ARENA 15: [Nakamura Yuri] Kōsaka Kirino ARENA 16: Index L. Prohibitorum [Shiina] ARENA 17: Hirasawa Yui [Victorique de Blois] ARENA 18: [Seraphim] Sanzen'in Nagi ARENA 19: [Shinonono Hōki] Shiina Mafuyu ARENA 20: Nagato Yuki [Shana] ARENA 21: [Laura Bodewig] Nymph ARENA 22: [Furukawa Nagisa] Last Order ARENA 23: [Louise Vallière] Aragaki Ayase ARENA 24: Haruna [Iwasawa Asami] ARENA 25: Izumi Konata [Huang Lingyin] ARENA 26: Etna [Nōmi Kudryavka]

2011-09-05, 14:03	Link #3670
Crisu ISML Kaichō IT Support Join Date: May 2007 Location: Gulfport, MS Age: 39	@Sackett, thank you for your input. The idea to limit veterans to previous appearances has a lot of positives, but I feel as if it's too restrictive on the veteran division. Both the new and old divisions should be able to grow in their own way to keep things dynamic for their target audiences. Using this limitation means the veteran division becomes completely dependent on the newcomer division for new faces. Because of the small size of the newcomer division and the annual influx of new characters, some older faces may never make it through this bottleneck. I think edge cases will be few. It shouldn't be too much of a hassle to pick a common-sense resolution for characters who are on the cusp of qualification via airtime. Most of them should be clear-cut veteran or newcomer on the two-year rule we currently have. With the currently proposed rule, the typical maximum appearance for any newcomer is two consecutive years. In rare cases will this be 3 or 4 when a series gains new material after a sufficiently long gap. And I expect more one-shots anyway because hype will die down for most characters, and there will be new faces to replace them anyway by the following year. If we leave the veteran division open to its own nomination and preliminary phase, characters don't have to fight for a newcomer seat just to achieve a veteran seat. We don't intend for the veteran division to be a "hall of fame" of sorts. It's more that we've noticed a trend of how some fans have become too buy to keep up with new anime, so all the knowledge they have are older series. And there are some older series who have been under-represented in ISML. If we separate the newcomers into their own world, it opens up more room for classic characters to have their chance. The newcomer division can still have the fast-paced feeling and high turnover ratios that some people prefer. And voters can decide to participate in one or the other division or both. If we do shift the newcomer time frame, this change is at least just once a year only, or less often. I don't see it as a burden, because heck, we've already changed at least one thing about ISML every single year since 2008. The nomination phase will be made large enough to accomodate the increased sizes of the prelim phases. I'm thinking just 20 slots straight up rather than 10 vet and 10 new. We don't want to burden the voter for having to decide right then. After we tally it we'll start applying the rule from the top of the list until we get 120 for both divisions. Of course the voter shouldn't be completely oblivious to the qualification rule, and we'll print that clearly on the ballot so people don't list just only newcomers and we end up with a very skewed nomination results set. __________________ MyAnimeList, OTL Fansubs, Project-iM@S, International Saimoe League

2011-09-05, 15:17	Link #3672
Sphire Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: UK	@Sackett I've just briefly gone over your first input, but the first issue that comes to mind is that unfortunately next years Vet division will look very if not wholly similar to this years ISML. And that's kinda boring. The girls in it now will be Vets by your definition, minus some stragglers but then again the pool size is decreased from 50 to 36 anyway. So it seems highly likely we'd just get a repeat of this years ISML. I think the proposed method of using a cut-off date works well here because we're getting a lot of sequels coming this year and next involving 'Vets' (by ISML def) that that division will have be a decent battle next year. Hopefully. The 4-year return Vets getting into the newcomer section I'm a bit more hesitant about. I'd prefer they go into the Vet section, since the Vet section will more likely be dryer than the newcomer section at any given time (ie the more characters with new shows the better). Whilst new characters from old shows on the other hand, I don't mind them getting into the newcomer section. In fact I prefer that. And personally, any league format that takes it's time will lose voters/interest near mid-end season. And pick up during post-season. I think a replacement system would help that, but even that isn't a given. As for your second input, I think the staff were talking about adding exhibition matches between lower tiered vets and newcomers. And that sounds great. But 8 whole matches like that? And more pointless jewelry? That's kinda overkill to me. Plus one of the charms of exhibition matches should be getting to vote for characters not in the leagues. I know they get a lot of abstains, but so would lower tiered girls anyway. I will say the post-season looks redundant to me. Like someone else mentioned in the ISML forums. Separating the vets and newcomers initially seems unnecessary. The Tiara tournament kinda loses it's spark since you know it'll be down to the no.1 vet vs the no.1 newcomer (or if one doesn't make the final, even more likely the other gets it). Is just a whole 32 (16 x 16) tournament mixing up vets and newcomers more boring or something? Seems it would be more straight forward at least. __________________ ---MAL // Dark Souls Vids // FF XIII-2 Vids // Tales Of Xillia Hard Playthrough School Rumble Forever!

2011-09-05, 19:03	Link #3673
Zeroryoko1974 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006	How bout this system. Put them in "conferences" and have a preseason "poll" decide their rankings. Play a 15 match or so "schedule" and then have a Saimoe Championship Series ranking determined by record, strength of schedule and poll ranking. The top two ranked characters face off in the "Tiara Bowl" with the rest of the top 16 selected by representatives of the other bowls, such as the Diamond Bowl, Ruby Bowl, etc etc. Everyone else can be selected to match up in some randomly named bowl, like the KyoAni bowl, or the Harem bowl, etc etc. Sounds like a great system to me. __________________

2011-09-05, 19:19	Link #3674
KholdStare ISML Technical Staff Graphic Designer Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Phoenix, AZ Age: 35	There will probably be only one extra "mixed" group match per period, so it won't be overkill. __________________ Kholdy's MAL, ISML Chat, Saimoe Blog, Saimoe Wiki

2011-09-05, 22:02	Link #3675
RegalStar Mishaguji-sama Join Date: Oct 2010	I'm laughing like a madman right now.

2011-09-05, 22:15	Link #3676
wontaek Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Planet Earth Age: 54	Hitagi for Ruby anyone? __________________

2011-09-05, 22:16	Link #3677
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	By three votes...and it was not China's fault. I'm happy, but then Yuki is my number 1 "shall never vote against" character. But I imagine Shana still has a shot a the necklace...though Hina has a shot now too. __________________

2011-09-05, 22:17	Link #3678
hinakatbklyn Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2009	Well, now the necklace race has become alittle more interesting. - Yuki beat Shana by 3 votes - Hitagi is leading the necklace race but has to face Shana which could end her period at 6-1 - Hina beat Mio and is still unbeaten??? Excellent. She's next in line for Ruby trailing only Hitagi and is going to face Yui-nyan to try and complete the unbeaten period. Oh why not, she missed her chance last year, go for another necklace while she has the chance. - Kanade is back to winning by more than 1000 - Yui barely beat Saber. A win is a win, but that's too close - Yui Hirasawa beat Victorique. Kind of a surprise __________________

2011-09-05, 22:18	Link #3679
KholdStare ISML Technical Staff Graphic Designer Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Phoenix, AZ Age: 35	So what was that about Wildcards can't win necklaces? __________________ Kholdy's MAL, ISML Chat, Saimoe Blog, Saimoe Wiki