[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Ryuukishi did say that a lot of people did get "the answer" in EP6, but that they hadn't yet tried to put the key in the keyhole of the earlier episodes. If that's so, then the answer is something that most people are supposed to figure out, but which most people haven't figured out how to use yet (i.e. make it work out practically). Once again, that sounds just like Shkanon.

No it doesn't your taking that quote out of context. The quote your talking about is referring to a key to solving all the closed rooms. And again Shkanon doesn't solve all (or any that I know of until now) of the closed rooms like he's saying this key does. In fact it makes them more difficult. We've discussed this before.

[sacul097]

I'm of the opinion that Shkanon might be true but I'm more of the opinion that they switch places and play dead and stuff, not that they're the same person. I also think the other servants are in on it. I also think that they're all being manipulated by Asumu. I support the Shkangenjosawasumutrice theory!

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

So I'm childish. I could've told you that.
But I'm also confident that Episode 6 made the Shkanon theory way too obvious. It's too clumsy a mistake on Ryuukishi's part. If he's subtly thrown in clever hints towards Shkanon throughout Episodes 1-4, it's almost sheer stupidity to go and push it as hard as he did in Episode 6. I trust Ryuukishi enough to believe he knows exactly what he's doing when writing, so I can't see any logic in the sudden change in tactics for writing Shkanon.

Why are you saying that? Change of tactic? So far ryukishi's tactics has always been to progressively give hints about something until it becomes rather obvious and only after that he confirms it. It's a very evident pattern, am I the only one who sees it?

Now shkanon is not very popular but shannontrice is, and it's been popular for a while. In EP4 most people already figured it out.
EP6 doesn't just show in your face shkanon, it shows in your face shannontrice as well, at the very least not any less than shkanon.

And Kinzo being dead became pretty evident by the time of EP3, most people already figured it out, and then EP4 just confirms it.

Again from EP4 it became pretty evident that some kind of "incident" destroyed the mansion and "killed" (at least for the world) all of the ushiromiya. But that was only confirmed in EP6, and here we have Ryukishi's word that it wasn't supposed to be a shock, it was supposed to be already evident according to him. And if you ask me, it was.

Again in EP4 there were hints that Battler's sin was a broken promise. In EP5 it gets shown in your face twice. First with a perfect timed song called "yakusoku" and then with Beatrice's reaction after Battler asks when he ever made a promise to her.

The author theory was seen by Kylon since EP3. in EP5 there's been strong signals about it, in EP6 those signals became overwhelming.

About the epitaph Ryukishi used the same pattern, he revealed things bit to bit. Now the epitaph has been solved by 99%, but that would have never happened if he didn't show any hint in the meanwhile. and the hints became progressively better and better. Next time he will probably give the solution.


Let's face it, Ryuukishi is not the kind of author that is working to keep us as clueless as possible until he drops the bomb. So far none of the confirmed solution to a mystery came out of the blue, and all of them where progressively confirmed, starting from vague hints, to less weak hints, strong hints and finally "on your face" hints.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Except he did reveal Kinzo's death outright in EP4 and EP5. If he did have a change in tactics for Shkanon, it was by making it slightly harder to find the answer, not easier. In other words, what if the reader is supposed to guess Shkanon in EP6? Ryuukishi did say that a lot of people did get "the answer" in EP6, but that they hadn't yet tried to put the key in the keyhole of the earlier episodes. If that's so, then the answer is something that most people are supposed to figure out, but which most people haven't figured out how to use yet (i.e. make it work out practically). Once again, that sounds just like Shkanon.

Yes, he revealed it. That's far different from what he's done with Shkanon. So many people had guessed that Kinzo was already dead, that he figured there was no point keeping up the illusion anymore. So he went and confirmed it.
There's a reason people don't say that Ryuukishi confirmed Shkanon with Episode 6. They say he all but confirmed it. And you can go to the utmost edge of something, say it's 99%, but as long as it's not 100%, it's not true. Didn't Erika say it herself?
Besides, I've never seen Kinzo being dead all that important to the solution of the mysteries. Sure, it clears up some discrepancies and for a short while permitted Person X, but you can't solve most of the mysteries with Kinzo being dead. If you think about it, while serving momentary dramatic purpose, it's not all that important of a resolution. Ryuukishi outright confirming it served little purpose.
If Shkanon is as important as you make it out to be, then outright shoving it down our throats in Episode 6 is completely illogical for the writing of a mystery novel. Anything important can only be revealed at the end, along with the answer. You don't reveal important clues blatantly in the middle of the story like that. It wrecks a good mystery.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Judoh

No it doesn't your taking that quote out of context. The quote your talking about is referring to a key to solving all the closed rooms. And again Shkanon doesn't solve all (or any that I know of until now) of the closed rooms like he's saying this key does. In fact it makes them more difficult. We've discussed this before.

I suggest that you look at the interview again. All it says is that the key is used to solve the "rescue Battler" closed room. It also says that it will help you understand all of the puzzles in the previous games, and Shkanon does indeed provide an explanation for everything if you think about it.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

I suggest that you look at the interview again. All it says is that the key is used to solve the "rescue Battler" closed room. It also says that it will help you understand all of the puzzles in the previous games, and Shkanon does indeed provide an explanation for everything if you think about it.

I've thought about it it does not. The only thing it could possibly confirm for me is that Jessica is either completely insane or a complete moron. I'm betting on moron.

I've read it before I know what it says

Especially after this last game, where we placed several hints that verged on answers, you should be able to explain the riddles of all the closed rooms up until now

Like I said your taking it out of context

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Why are you saying that? Change of tactic? So far ryukishi's tactics has always been to progressively give hints about something until it becomes rather obvious and only after that he confirms it. It's a very evident pattern, am I the only one who sees it?

Now shkanon is not very popular but shannontrice is, and it's been popular for a while. In EP4 most people already figured it out.
EP6 doesn't just show in your face shkanon, it shows in your face shannontrice as well, at the very least not any less than shkanon.

And Kinzo being dead became pretty evident by the time of EP3, most people already figured it out, and then EP4 just confirms it.

Again from EP4 it became pretty evident that some kind of "incident" destroyed the mansion and "killed" (at least for the world) all of the ushiromiya. But that was only confirmed in EP6, and here we have Ryukishi's word that it wasn't supposed to be a shock, it was supposed to be already evident according to him. And if you ask me, it was.

Again in EP4 there were hints that Battler's sin was a broken promise. In EP5 it gets shown in your face twice. First with a perfect timed song called "yakusoku" and then with Beatrice's reaction after Battler asks when he ever made a promise to her.

You're right, Ryuukishi provides subtle hints throughout the Episodes, and then confirms it as truth at one point. But he's never done something like Episode 6, shoving Shkanon down our throats with a constant stream of hints. It's not even confirming the theory, it's only pushing us into a situation where we can't think otherwise. So until Ryuukishi confirms it himself, I'm not going to believe in Shkanon. All this forcefulness seems barbaric against normal mystery tactics.

The author theory was seen by Kylon since EP3. in EP5 there's been strong signals about it, in EP6 those signals became overwhelming.

I don't personally agree with the Author Theory, and I personally saw Episode 6 showing Featherline as someone who watched the Episodes from a place above, and just wrote what she saw happening. So I still find her a hack, but a magical hack at that.

About the epitaph Ryukishi used the same pattern, he revealed things bit to bit. Now the epitaph has been solved by 99%, but that would have never happened if he didn't show any hint in the meanwhile. and the hints became progressively better and better. Next time he will probably give the solution.

The Epitaph is a puzzle, not a mystery, and I'm talking about mystery tactics here. What he does with it is irrelevant. The solution to the Epitaph is actually useless to the overall solution of the mysteries, since the actual location is of no use when solving the closed rooms and determining the culprit. What would be useful would be if he reveals someone like Shannon had already discovered the location beforehand. Revealing it's solution would be nothing more than fanservice, allowing the fans who got it right to boast and others to smack their foreheads, groaning how they didn't see that coming.

[chronotrig]

@Raiza Sunozaki:

You have to understand how Ryuukishi writes his stories. In Higurashi, he made 4 question arcs filled with secrets. He then started revealing the secrets one by one in the answer arcs, so that the answer would be made clear little by little.

The only difference in Umineko is that he isn't saying the answers explicitly, but asking the readers to make the final leap. This is according to his own interviews.

@Judoh: I hope you realize the logical fallacy you're making there. Read both lines and think about it.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

@Raiza Sunozaki:

You have to understand how Ryuukishi writes his stories. In Higurashi, he made 4 question arcs filled with secrets. He then started revealing the secrets one by one in the answer arcs, so that the answer would be made clear little by little.

The only difference in Umineko is that he isn't saying the answers explicitly, but asking the readers to make the final leap. This is according to his own interviews.

And he can't change how he writes stories? Sure, there's going to be some similarity between the two, but you can't use someone's previous story as a basis for a later one. More so, Higurashi is contructed differently from Umineko, which means how the truth is revealed will be different as well.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

And he can't change how he writes stories? Sure, there's going to be some similarity between the two, but you can't use someone's previous story as a basis for a later one. More so, Higurashi is contructed differently from Umineko, which means how the truth is revealed will be different as well.

In that case I've won the argument. If it worked in Higurashi, then it could also work here. You have no evidence whatsoever that he hasn't used a similar pattern (it's already clear that he isn't using the exact same pattern by a long shot). In other words, if it turns out that you were wrong, you cannot criticize Ryuukishi for using this writing style.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

In that case I've won the argument. If it worked in Higurashi, then it could also work here. You have no evidence whatsoever that he hasn't used a similar pattern (it's already clear that he isn't using the exact same pattern by a long shot). In other words, if it turns out that you were wrong, you cannot criticize Ryuukishi for using this writing style.

And what if you're wrong? How can you be so completely certain that he hasn't changed his writing style, in an attempt to create a more challenging mystery? A murder story is a game between the writer and the reader. If the reader can solve the mystery before the author reveals it, the reader wins. Vice versa, if the reader is still stumped by the time the author reveals the culprit, the author wins. I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty sure a good number of people solved the culprit of Higurashi before he revealed it in game. In that case, the way he wrote Higurashi ended up with him losing. So unless he wants to make Umineko as "easy" as Higurashi, I'd think he'd want to try a different writing style from the one that he lost with before.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

I don't personally agree with the Author Theory, and I personally saw Episode 6 showing Featherline as someone who watched the Episodes from a place above, and just wrote what she saw happening. So I still find her a hack, but a magical hack at that.

Actually, Featherine would not be the author but a character of Hachijou. In fact, probably a self-insertion character. In much the same way the Stephen King character in the Dark Tower series was not Stephen King but... Stephen King the Author's self insertion character.

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

The Epitaph is a puzzle, not a mystery, and I'm talking about mystery tactics here. What he does with it is irrelevant. The solution to the Epitaph is actually useless to the overall solution of the mysteries, since the actual location is of no use when solving the closed rooms and determining the culprit. What would be useful would be if he reveals someone like Shannon had already discovered the location beforehand. Revealing it's solution would be nothing more than fanservice, allowing the fans who got it right to boast and others to smack their foreheads, groaning how they didn't see that coming.

Actually, he hasn't revealed the solution so far but just noted that it's pretty much solved already. But as for revealing the location of the gold; doesn't EP2 pretty much show that someone dragged out 3 bars of gold?

As for the Epitaph itself, someone on here already postulated that it can be more than just the location of the gold, but some indicator for a further puzzle. I thought that since the fake murders are following the epitaph, this is the 'further puzzle' that use of the Epitaph will help to solve...

For one thing, I've already said that if the people are following the Epitaph so closely, they wouldn't ignore the lines about the finding of the Key and getting the Key to choose the first twilight 6...

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

And what if you're wrong? How can you be so completely certain that he hasn't changed his writing style, in an attempt to create a more challenging mystery? A murder story is a game between the writer and the reader. If the reader can solve the mystery before the author reveals it, the reader wins. Vice versa, if the reader is still stumped by the time the author reveals the culprit, the author wins. I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty sure a good number of people solved the culprit of Higurashi before he revealed it in game. In that case, the way he wrote Higurashi ended up with him losing. So unless he wants to make Umineko as "easy" as Higurashi, I'd think he'd want to try a different writing style from the one that he lost with before.

Actually, you've hit it right on the head. Umineko is supposed to get easier as you go along. According to Ryuukishi, the game is basically solvable by EP4. At the end of EP5, we have the "detective figures it out" scene, proving in-game that it's already solvable. So the difficult part of the game would be solving it before then.

As he's said many times, the fastest readers will figure it out by EP4, many more will understand by EP5, and by EP6, the answer's clear. In other words, if you wanted a real challenge, the goal should then be to solve it before any of the core arcs. EP5-8 is just checking the answers at the back of the book one tiny bit at a time, so that people who know the answer will become more sure of it and people who don't know have a chance to figure it out before the end (this is also a quote from a Ryuukishi interview).

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

In that case I've won the argument. If it worked in Higurashi, then it could also work here. You have no evidence whatsoever that he hasn't used a similar pattern (it's already clear that he isn't using the exact same pattern by a long shot). In other words, if it turns out that you were wrong, you cannot criticize Ryuukishi for using this writing style.

Actually in Higurashi his Kai arcs were used to boggle down the number of suspects not confirm them. This time he's showing what people are capable of and not saying who it is. I won't say that Shannon or Kanon can't be a murderers, but there isn't a lot of evidence saying they're capable of being the main one there is a lot saying they'd be capable of being deceived into it though. If Episode 7 is anything like episode 3 it's going to be screaming the servants are not the main culprits especially if we get Van Dine rules. In fact the bell that rings in the servants room when people enter the mansion and Erika's speculations should be indications he's moving in the opposite direction from that.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

Actually, Featherine would not be the author but a character of Hachijou. In fact, probably a self-insertion character. In much the same way the Stephen King character in the Dark Tower series was not Stephen King but... Stephen King the Author's self insertion character.

Well, opinions. I personally take a half-magic, half-reality view on things so I can accept a witch like Featherline. Which means I can see Hachijou as a human disguise for her.

Actually, he hasn't revealed the solution so far but just noted that it's pretty much solved already. But as for revealing the location of the gold; doesn't EP2 pretty much show that someone dragged out 3 bars of gold?

Which is why I said it would be useful if he revealed that someone before Rosa, Eva or Battler has solved the Epitaph. I chose Shannon since it works with my theory on why Beato has the head ring (and why she and Kanon have it in Episode 5).
But the location of the gold and solution of the Epitaph are useless, I'm certain of that. I'm not saying it's boring-in fact, it's a brilliant and fantastic riddle. But solving it has no merit to the important mysteries of Umineko, which is why solving it dropped in importance to me after I decided it was really difficult.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

As he's said many times, the fastest readers will figure it out by EP4, many more will understand by EP5, and by EP6, the answer's clear. In other words, if you wanted a real challenge, the goal should then be to solve it before any of the core arcs.

I think we have different opinions on what is important in episode 4. I think you like looking more at the scenes with Sakutarou and Ange learning magic and some of the stuff about how Ange and Maira were bullied. The scenes I thought were important were the ones about Ange and Maria's backstory and how they became introverted. And Ange' and Amakusa's conversation about "Self Acknowledgement" or how some people can't be satisfied unless their accepted by others and Ange's sin against Maria.

In fact I'm working on a huge theory based off these things I've found now.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Actually, you've hit it right on the head. Umineko is supposed to get easier as you go along. According to Ryuukishi, the game is basically solvable by EP4. At the end of EP5, we have the "detective figures it out" scene, proving in-game that it's already solvable. So the difficult part of the game would be solving it before then.

I'm familiar with all that. And it has been getting easier. Episode 5 provided us with the possibility that deaths can be faked on several occasions, which Episode 6 all but confirmed. And Episode 6 has provided us with some important information on Beatrice and how some characters are connected to others. And this alone shows how it's different from Higurashi. In the Answer Arcs, clear answers were given. How and why things turned out and happened were confirmed. The Core Episodes have been giving us useful tactics, information and clues, but has not explained how things have happened, with the exception of faking deaths, which is still a shaky concept.
I see this already as a difference from Higurashi.

EP5-8 is just checking the answers at the back of the book one tiny bit at a time, so that people who know the answer will become more sure of it and people who don't know have a chance to figure it out before the end (this is also a quote from a Ryuukishi interview).

I can't say that's a well-made metaphor, since the back of the book never introduces new concepts to solve a problem.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

You're right, Ryuukishi provides subtle hints throughout the Episodes, and then confirms it as truth at one point. But he's never done something like Episode 6, shoving Shkanon down our throats with a constant stream of hints. It's not even confirming the theory, it's only pushing us into a situation where we can't think otherwise. So until Ryuukishi confirms it himself, I'm not going to believe in Shkanon. All this forcefulness seems barbaric against normal mystery tactics.

This raises a very interesting point about the whole logic error mess. From beginning to end, this entire puzzle is quite deliberately about trust and faith.

Consider the reader base. If the pro-Shkannontrice faction is correct, then we've had something close to the solution practically spoon-fed to us. At this point it shouldn't even be in question anymore. However, people on both sides of the theory line can't take that solution in hand and do anything with it because they don't trust Ryuukishi to have a satisfying explanation up his sleeve. That is, without love, they can't accept the solution to the puzzle.

On the other hand, suppose the anti-Shkannontrice faction is correct. Then there are a lot of people in the opposite faction who stopped thinking because they swallowed the "obvious" answer. For them, it isn't even possible to consider alternate solutions anymore because they've lost faith in both Battler's and Ryuukishi's ability to construct puzzles, and all clues simply look like bad writing. In other words, without love, they can't see that the puzzle exists at all.

Whichever side you subscribe to, you have to admit that this was certainly deliberate. It's a puzzle that wouldn't be possible at all if it weren't for the specific themes that Ryuukishi's been addressing in the story.

[UsagiTenpura]

Without love this is what cannot be seen!.

It'd be however truly amazing if Shkanontrice was part of the truth but not THE truth, so everyone would be equally wrong lol.

Edit, unrelated :
I was thinking about what was said about magic and witches in arc 4-5-6. Magic is an illusion that ranges from a complete lie to an embelishment of the truth. Witches are those who makes others believe in it. If we think of it that way.

Beatrice the golden witch: the one who makes others believe in the illusion of gold.
Bernkastel : the one who makes others believe in the illusion of miracles.
LambaDelta : the one who makes others believe in the illusion of certainty.
Erika : the one who makes others believe in the illusion of the truth.
Ange : the one who makes others believe in the illusion of ressurection.
Featherine : the one who makes others believe in the illusion of theater, drama and spectacle.

Seems harder to make sense out of "endless witch, finite witch, orrigins witch, and witch who summons miracles", but this explanation seems to work very very well for the others for now.

[sacul097]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

This raises a very interesting point about the whole logic error mess. From beginning to end, this entire puzzle is quite deliberately about trust and faith.

Consider the reader base. If the pro-Shkannontrice faction is correct, then we've had something close to the solution practically spoon-fed to us. At this point it shouldn't even be in question anymore. However, people on both sides of the theory line can't take that solution in hand and do anything with it because they don't trust Ryuukishi to have a satisfying explanation up his sleeve. That is, without love, they can't accept the solution to the puzzle.

On the other hand, suppose the anti-Shkannontrice faction is correct. Then there are a lot of people in the opposite faction who stopped thinking because they swallowed the "obvious" answer. For them, it isn't even possible to consider alternate solutions anymore because they've lost faith in both Battler's and Ryuukishi's ability to construct puzzles, and all clues simply look like bad writing. In other words, without love, they can't see that the puzzle exists at all.

Whichever side you subscribe to, you have to admit that this was certainly deliberate. It's a puzzle that wouldn't be possible at all if it weren't for the specific themes that Ryuukishi's been addressing in the story.

Good point!