Spice and Wolf II - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[Darknemo2000]

Vexx, nice way to cover it as just cartload of near-misogynist crap or an archaic description used to objectify women, but the problem is that the same description is used today as well and is used on both genders by both genders.

We just got involved into discussing woman-virgin because we discussed Horo, but we can discuss man-virgin if that makes you feel better?

Or are you saying virginity is not important? I can agree on that. But then how come for some it still is? Seems like the virginity importance is still subjective and it depends on your view of it, just like the whole definition depends on or point of view - is virginity a state of mind or physical occurrence.

You cannot deny that virginity exist. Its just view of importance and view of definition is what differs.

I view it (the discussion) as another philosophical talk that has no direct importance to or lives and can be consider useless. It is just fun so I see no harm in discussing it even if I personally find it to be of a very little importance.

Not to mention that it lead to are rather interesting discussion about the being of existence with Anh as well - as in what constitutes you apart body and mind, and I am eager to hear his answer.

[MeoTwister5]

Personally I don't really understand all this importance placed on the status of being virgin or non-virgin. I mean, does being either/or really have such an effect that men judge a woman's quality over it?

As Vexx said, it's nothing more than a mysoginistic system of classification of a patriarchal age.

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Personally I don't really understand all this importance placed on the status of being virgin or non-virgin. I mean, does being either/or really have such an effect that men judge a woman's quality over it?

Or woman judge man. It is not just towards one sex in nowadays but towards both. Its not patriarchal age, but a modern age and its still lively.

[Mr. Anime]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Personally I don't really understand all this importance placed on the status of being virgin or non-virgin. I mean, does being either/or really have such an effect that men judge a woman's quality over it?

I personally think of it this way. If u look at the relationships between man and woman nowadays u can see that there are many who lead shallow relationships and break up shortly after comming together or werent serious to begin with. Many people are afraid that they miss something if they havent many relationships/sexual experiences. I despise such a way of thinking because i want my girlfriend/wife to be rly special to me and I should be rly special to her, but the more relationships u had the less important each one gets and words like "I love u" lose impact. So i would prefer my girlfriend to be a virgin or at least that she hadnt had THAT many men before me, but it should be the same for men and women. So if we talked about lawrence and not horo i would say that i hope he is a virgin too. I dont think a woman who had many man is a bitch and a guy who had many women is cool. they are both more or less bitches^^ (well if u fall in love easily it cant be helped but if u use ur brain u should know what might work out and what not): I hope that explains why i want horo and lawrence both be virgins^^. I dont differentiate between man and woman in such a case.

All u ve read is just my wishful and naive thinking and it could be that i cant find a woman that thinks the same way as me and that i can fall in love with, but i am still young so i wont lose hope yet^^

[MeoTwister5]

I was never really a touchy-feely kind of person and, growing up, the physical aspect of romance slowly lost it's gripping edge as a requirement for a relationship. Granted one must admit that it is virtually impossible to confirm virginity in men as compared to women, but even then for women it's not something you can confirm easily either. Hymen tearing can be lost in a multitude of ways completely unrelated to sex, but even then it's presence or absence is sadly a factor in the way many of us men judge women.

I could honestly care less about having a partner that isn't a virgin, and neither would it be a plus if she were. As I grew older I realized that at the end of the day it's really just a state of mind and a state of relative experience, and the status of virginity doesn't really affect the mental and emotional status of people, unless of course we're talking some sex-crazed maniac but I'm speaking of the normal populace here.

I mean, I had friends who were both virgins and experienced, men and women alike, and really the act of sex never really changed them much. They were still the same person in the inside as they were on the outside. One girl I dated but never became my girlfriend is going to get married soon to a good friend of mine and they've done it (well at least they both claim to have lol) and she's still the same dorky girl I've ever known, and he's still the same dorky guy too.

People assume that sex changes everything. And while I'm completely green in all that (at 25 and I'm not ashamed to admit it), everything of human relations I've seen tells me that it doesn't garner as big a change as people think. At the most it changes the way they view physical contact, intimacy, relationships and whatnot, but the person there is still the same person you were getting drunk with the night before he became "experienced."

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Hymen tearing can be lost in a multitude of ways completely unrelated to sex, but even then it's presence or absence is sadly a factor in the way many of us men judge women.

We live in a sexually and emotionally frustrated age. It will take us a long time to transcend these hang-ups.

Remember also, that women often judge men by their virginal status. Being a virgin male in our society is such a point of embarrassment, I've known women that have refused a man they otherwise have strong bonds with because of some twisted sense of shame/embarrassment.

It seems to be a strange twist of fate that "empowered" women still suffer from remnants of the kind of misogyny they often vilify. There is a possibility that such hang-ups are a more natural state than we'd like to admit, but I would rather pretend that this is untrue

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

People assume that sex changes everything. And while I'm completely green in all that (at 25 and I'm not ashamed to admit it), everything of human relations I've seen tells me that it doesn't garner as big a change as people think. At the most it changes the way they view physical contact, intimacy, relationships and whatnot, but the person there is still the same person you were getting drunk with the night before he became "experienced."

Kudos. It is nice to hear someone say it that way and I applaud you for it. The entire emphasis on physical intimacy in many modern cultures is troubling as it greatly diminishes the more important emotional aspect of intimacy. I believe the sexual revolution was meant to free us of our physical hangups, but we were clearly side-tracked

Casual sex is simply not the same kind of intimacy that is associated with an intimate romantic relationship. I've known quite a few people who have suffered greatly because they dove into a romantic relationship that was not based on a strong bond and then tried to "make it work". We are flighty and irrational creatures who unfortunately take a very long time to figure such things out.

It is nice that Spice and Wolf seems to present an interesting and "enlightened" relationship tale, where the frustration stems from a fear of losing what they already have because they are afraid of their own immaturity or insecurity. If the story progresses in this way, I suspect that they will soon be pushing each other away and some third party will be employed to force/facilitate the issue.

[Dark Wing]

Interesting discussion really but I can't really help but ask...what dose this have to do with this episode...

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Interesting discussion really but I can't really help but ask...what dose this have to do with this episode...

Not necessarily the episode but the duality of Lawrence and Horo's relationship in general.

Remember also, that women often judge men by their virginal status. Being a virgin male in our society is such a point of embarrassment, I've known women that have refused a man they otherwise have strong bonds with because of some twisted sense of shame/embarrassment.

That's sort of relative I think. My pathology classes showcase enough medical examples of STI's to scare men and women into monogamy.

Kudos. It is nice to hear someone say it that way and I applaud you for it. The entire emphasis on physical intimacy in many modern cultures is troubling as it greatly diminishes the more important emotional aspect of intimacy. I believe the sexual revolution was meant to free us of our physical hangups, but we were clearly side-tracked

Casual sex is simply not the same kind of intimacy that is associated with an intimate romantic relationship. I've known quite a few people who have suffered greatly because they dove into a romantic relationship that was not based on a strong bond and then tried to "make it work". We are flighty and irrational creatures who unfortunately take a very long time to figure such things out.

It is nice that Spice and Wolf seems to present an interesting and "enlightened" relationship tale, where the frustration stems from a fear of losing what they already have because they are afraid of their own immaturity or insecurity. If the story progresses in this way, I suspect that they will soon be pushing each other away and some third party will be employed to force/facilitate the issue.

Yep we were clearly sidetracked. The sexual revolution was supposed to erase the idea of the sexual act being a under wraps taboo subject and turn it into a mature, open-for-discussion idea for people to discuss. Instead, we have teenagers copulating in dark alleyways and $20 crack whores with cheap makeup.

Personally I think people don't understand that due to the deep physical intimacy of sex, there is almost no way to separate emotional involvement and a sexual one. People come in with the notion that casual sex is just a one-night stand, but end up leaving with an unexplainable and unerasable emotional "bond" with the other party.

The reason I like the duality of their relationship is because it mixes the ideal with the real in a very... plausible manner. God knows I've spent my romantic inclinations on majorly ideal mindsets that I'm still suffering over for almost 10 years, and I've honestly still to get it right, and this show reminds me of the fact that I'm a lot like Lawrence: ideal yet pragmatic. Seeing him develop seems to teach me things.

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Interesting discussion really but I can't really help but ask...what dose this have to do with this episode...

Yeah, we got a little carried away but the episode did raise the issue in the first place (depending on how you read their conversations).

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

The reason I like the duality of their relationship is because it mixes the ideal with the real in a very... plausible manner. God knows I've spent my romantic inclinations on majorly ideal mindsets that I'm still suffering over for almost 10 years, and I've honestly still to get it right, and this show reminds me of the fact that I'm a lot like Lawrence: ideal yet pragmatic. Seeing him develop seems to teach me things.

I'm in the same position. Lawrence serves as a bit of a guidepost for me as well. Years of helping others with their issues (help lines) can make it more difficult to remember your own needs/wants. As you might suspect, the story so far is roughly analogous to my first "mutually serious relationship" which started off quite similarly.

Anyway, back to the story at hand.. after re-watching the last few eps I get the vibe that Abe/Fleur/whatever is going to be around for a while. I wonder if she is going to try to steal Lawrence from Horo? In that case, Lawrence will be forced to make a choice and I don't think Horo could handle that just yet

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Then talk about your previous sage of life as a monkey. Oh wait, humans did not evolve from gorillas and chimpanzees, they just had the same ancestor. So how about talking about your stage as Australopithecus ancestor?

It was log ago? But wolf becoming a wolf-god happened also very, very long time ago. And the form differences between wolf and wolf-god is just as different (or similar, depends on your view) as ours with our australopithecus ancestors.

So how about you talk about that ancient family?

Wait you are saying that wolf and wolf-god is still the same being while you or me and our ancestors are not? But again I am arguing that they are not the same being since both their mind and body changed. Or are you saying that there is somethig else that defines being, apart mind and body? What, pray tell me? Spirit? But then we share the same spirit as our ancestors as well...

I have never been a monkey. Or an Australopithecus. Or even my own father. I have, however, been a baby. Does the fact that I'm closer, in mind and body, to an adult Australopithecus than to any baby ever born (I mean, I'm 30 times heavier and almost 4 times taller than your average newborn, I speak...) mean I, in your own words, came from nothing? In which case, dude, where are my superpowers?

No sane man could claim I used to be anything but Homo Sapiens since "I" came to be. And yet, no sane man would claim "I" have never been a baby. And despite the drastic changes since then, there's been some continuity between newborn-me and now-me.

The truth of the matter is, we don't know if Horo was ever anything other than a giant wolf goddess. But if she used to be a normal wolf, well, that's that - she used to be a normal wolf. And despite the changes, by definition, that normal wolf was her.

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I have never been a monkey. Or an Australopithecus. Or even my own father. I have, however, been a baby. Does the fact that I'm closer, in mind and body, to an adult Australopithecus than to any baby ever born (I mean, I'm 30 times heavier and almost 4 times taller than your average newborn, I speak...) mean I, in your own words, came from nothing? In which case, dude, where are my superpowers?

No sane man could claim I used to be anything but Homo Sapiens since "I" came to be. And yet, no sane man would claim "I" have never been a baby. And despite the drastic changes since then, there's been some continuity between newborn-me and now-me.

The truth of the matter is, we don't know if Horo was ever anything other than a giant wolf goddess. But if she used to be a normal wolf, well, that's that - she used to be a normal wolf. And despite the changes, by definition, that normal wolf was her.

No you came from your mother and father who also came from theirs and this chain reaches our Australopithecus family.

But you new-born were not three meters tall with seven legs? No, you had same limbs as now, just smaller. Thus you had a physical continuity with now you (during natural process of growth). The wolf turning to god is abnormality that is not natural thus has no physical continuity. It has same number of legs but size is abnormal as well as ability to transform.

You do realize that she has a different body and different mind, so what makes her the same being? If two basic components of her are missing so what claim you can make it was the same being?

What makes the succession? Where is continuity?

Physical? No way the god-wolf is the same physically as a simple wolf. As mind? A miss again. So what other mean of existence you have in your mind when you talk about succession to claim that they are the same being?

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

No you came from your mother and father who also came from theirs and this chain reaches our Australopithecus family.

Yes, but my "self" started quite a bit after the last Australopithecus died.

But you new-born were not three meters tall with seven legs? No, you had same limbs as now, just smaller. Thus you had a physical continuity with now you (during natural process of growth).

A lot smaller. I'm positively gigantic, compared to my newborn self. I've also acquired quite a lot of hair. And teeth. And the changes in my mind are even greater.

The wolf turning to god is abnormality that is not natural thus has no physical continuity.

How do you know? Maybe she used to be merely six-feet tall, in between being normal sized and becoming a full fledged goddess.

It has same number of legs but size is abnormal

Abnormal compared to what? To what she used to be when she was a simple wolf, if she ever was? So what? Do you see a lot of 185cm babies?

as well as ability to transform.

So she's picked up a few abilities. Nice for her. Myself, I acquired the ability to walk, talk, and a host of others. Like arguing on the internet in English. You don't see a lot of babies able to do that.

You do realize that she has a different body and different mind, so what makes her the same being? If two basic components of her are missing so what claim you can make it was the same being?

What makes a body and mind different? As I said, I'm vastly different to what I used to be as a baby. And yet, I used to be a baby. One self, different bodies and minds.

What makes the succession? Where is continuity?

Physical? No way the god-wolf is the same physically as a simple wolf. As mind? A miss again. So what other mean of existence you have in your mind when you talk about succession to claim that they are the same being?

We do not know how the change happened, or even if there was one. If one wolf died, and a full fledged wolf goddess appeared ex nihilo next to the corpse, your argument has merit. Would we even say Horo used to be a normal wolf, then? If on the contrary, a wolf grew and grew over the years, gaining a mind the way a baby becomes self-aware and grows into an intelligent adult, only gaining the ability to transform once there was a firm sense of self that allows us, to this day, to affirm that Horo is both the young maiden and the giant wolf, then there's your continuity.

[Souten no Seigyoku]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Personally I don't really understand all this importance placed on the status of being virgin or non-virgin. I mean, does being either/or really have such an effect that men judge a woman's quality over it?

Yes.
Its promiscuity related. If she's not a virgin there's a chance she's promiscuous. You would have to judge based on other factors, non of which are 100% accurate. Virginity is a sort of built in certificate of 'Im not a <bleep>'.

Anyhoo, I have to go back and read the whole thing since the thread went in this direction and I what i really want to know is: What the heck was that about buying Horo?! I mean, where the heck did that come from? It blindsided me

[monir]

Originally Posted by Souten no Seigyoku

Anyhoo, I have to go back and read the whole thing since the thread went in this direction and I what i really want to know is: What the heck was that about buying Horo?! I mean, where the heck did that come from? It blindsided me

It's being explained in episode 10. Hop over.

[Cinocard]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

She was intelligent to remember the other pack but not her own? If she was mature to form her own pack she would have left the first pack to mate, yet it is not like that. Remember that we see some points of story from her point of view and never does she mention her offspring which, if you know wolves, are the most important for them after personal lives,

Her patch, as we see it, is a bunch of giant wolves, which I suspect is rare. So even if she wanted to leave to form a new pack, it may not be feasible. I also suspect that they may lose their reproductive ability, thus leaving no chance for having offspring to remember, and at the same time enable them to change the wolf's custom and having sex more freely.

OR, Horo might have mated with a wolf before, then both her and that wolf became immortal, and they remembered their prior-wolf lives, and they may continue to have sex after that (if they ever lose their reproductive ability), or may be not, nonetheless they are intimated toward each other enough.

Another scenario: She may have, after hundreds of mating seasons, so many offspring that were born as normal wolf (of course, you may still argue they are different beings ) and died off. This should happen before any past memory have been shown. She and other "divine" wolves found it painful, thus stopped mating only after.

Remember, there's a heap load of supposedly-important things that Horo herself doesn't have a good ideas about.

It is pointless because it is just illogical claim about the fact that can never be denied or confirmed because no possible ties to the current situation exist.

I never made any claims, what I made wasn't illogical, and the most foolish here knows that no hypothesis we make here can be completely denied or confirmed, before it can be made so, by the writter.

I'd just wanted to point out that another "claim" was equally "illogical, cannot-be-denied-or-confirmed"

Spoiler for !:

Horo never seemed to be a leading female and have had her own pack it is strongly implied that as a wolf she may be a virgin.

You are saying that simple wolves become gods, right? But if a wolf becomes a god and does not have any ties with a previous life (nor memory, nor the body (as you can see god wolf bod in different from a normal wolf, not to mention the fact that she has had to be old enough to mate but after becoming a god her age turned into younger or else she could not co-exist in the pack lead by others)) you can just as successfully say she was created out of nothing.

So fallacious, I don't even know where to start...


Darknemo, you have a tendency of making philosophical arguments that basically scare many forums members off, when you yourself know that eventually such arguments (continuity, being, blah blah blah...) definitely make us stuck at the middle of nowhere (like now), when any philosophical argument, which should require tremendous thoughts, is pure-pretentious when carelessly being presented in a ANIME forums, like here.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Cinocard

Her patch, as we see it, is a bunch of giant wolves, which I suspect is rare.

Not that rare. They found another pack near Rubinhagen.

So even if she wanted to leave to form a new pack, it may not be feasible.

Eh. If worse came to worst, she could have taken one of her brothers and found a territory somewhere. Incest is rare, but not unheard of. Probably not necessary, though - as I said, other packs exist.

I also suspect that they may lose their reproductive ability, thus leaving no chance for having offspring to remember, and at the same time enable them to change the wolf's custom and having sex more freely.

That's a pretty big assumption. We know nothing about wolf gods' life cycle, except that it's long.

Oh, and chances are, Horo is fertile - she begged Lawrence for a child, remember? And Deanna said such unions weren't unheard of, though she wasn't speaking specifically about wolf gods.

[BashZeStampeedo]

Maybe we should request another forum topic for this debate? Maybe just move some of it to her character discussion board? The episode raised the question of Horo's virginity, so I suppose we could carry out a discussion about that here, but it's gotten way overblown with all of this pseudo-philosophical talk about her nature.

Originally Posted by Souten no Seigyoku

Yes.
Its promiscuity related. If she's not a virgin there's a chance she's promiscuous. You would have to judge based on other factors, non of which are 100% accurate. Virginity is a sort of built in certificate of 'Im not a <bleep>'.

Heh.. I would certainly hope you (or others) aren't being naive enough to believe that a woman who's never had vaginal intercourse couldn't have been promiscuous

I know, I know, you're probably referring to someone who really *is* a virgin, instead of just presumed to be one because of a hymen. I just couldn't myself

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo

Heh.. I would certainly hope you (or others) aren't being naive enough to believe that a woman who's never had vaginal intercourse couldn't have been promiscuous

I know, I know, you're probably referring to someone who really *is* a virgin, instead of just presumed to be one because of a hymen. I just couldn't myself

It's about not raising somebody else's kid. If you can prove the woman never had intercourse before the wedding, and the husband keeps her from having intercourse with any other man after, then any baby of hers is also a baby of his. Other issues got tacked onto that, but it's basically an evolutionary thing. You don't want to expend resources to preserve something that doesn't have your genes.

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

It's about not raising somebody else's kid. If you can prove the woman never had intercourse before the wedding, and the husband keeps her from having intercourse with any other man after, then any baby of hers is also a baby of his. Other issues got tacked onto that, but it's basically an evolutionary thing. You don't want to expend resources to preserve something that doesn't have your genes.

Good point, and one I've heard numerous times. I've had enough discussing this topic myself, though. My bad, for helping to drag this topic through the proverbial dirt. I think I'll lurk a bit in the hopes that episode ten starts another passionate discussion

[Cinocard]

Eh. If worse came to worst, she could have taken one of her brothers and found a territory somewhere. Incest is rare, but not unheard of. Probably not necessary, though - as I said, other packs exist.

If he agrees. Though any man would fall in love with Horo We can see that Horo was very attached to her friends, though, and that may be why she never intended to leave the pack.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

That's a pretty big assumption. We know nothing about wolf gods' life cycle, except that it's long.

Oh, and chances are, Horo is fertile - she begged Lawrence for a child, remember? And Deanna said such unions weren't unheard of, though she wasn't speaking specifically about wolf gods.

Haha, they are all hypothesis, I just list what are, though very not probable, possible scenarios.

The point is, Horo may not herself know if she's fertile or not. At best she can be sure about that in case of mating with another wolf-god, not with a human.

Though if she has friends who also fell in love and tried to mate with human to learn from, it would be very interesting.

Heck, is Lawrence even a virgin in the first place? :P


And I noticed I blatantly misspelled the word "patch"