[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 3 Banquet of the golden witch

[actawesome]

I have a theory. In the tea part for ep 2, right before Rosa see's magic she looks at the witches eyes. Maybe the witch hypnotizes everyone, and thus they hallucinate...

[tobiast88]

That would require a witch existing, something which has been in doubt these past few hundred pages of discussion. Which you would know if you had read them.

And Peroyasha, it's not really foreshadowing his death since he says to kill those who would pull him away from his study, to "Dismember them, make them into firewood, feed them to the Witch's hearth!! [...] soak their dregs in liquor!", which is hardly how Kinzo is killed.

[chronotrig]

Well, you have to admit that it's the only time that a fireplace or anything like it has come up (and throwing people in there too).

And there's also the fact that in ep3, Kanon thinks Kinzo got what he deserved (or Beato says that's what he's thinking), which may have something to do with 'you reap what you sow' (自業自得), a phrase that actually shows up a couple times in the When They Cry series.

Actually, I think there's a pretty good case to be made that Kinzo gets burned in every game, and it may even happen at the beginning of October 5.
Only Natsuhi, Rosa, Genji, and Shannon have ever seen him alive on the second day. Genji and Shannon are suspicious for various reasons, and when Natsuhi and Rosa 'saw' him, they somehow managed to avoid becoming one of the 13 sacrifices...

Oh, and I'm just outright discounting the last 2 chapters in umi2. If you take the non-magic side, you have to believe that there were at least several dozen illusions that took place then, so there's no reason to think that Kinzo is alive just from that.

[nagare]

I agree with tobiast88 as I also doubt absinthe has anything to do with the mystery with the current information available to us. It's pretty much why I left it out in my speculations even though I knew since EP 01 that Kinzo loved to drink it. Partly b/c as exaggerated as the story is, I just don't see any reason to pursue the mythical effects of this beverage. But I won't rule out the possibility that it's not involved in the mystery in one shape or form. It's just good to know that Ryukishi did mentioned it just in case Ryukishi puts another tidbit about Kinzo's drink. After all, Kinzo doesn't prepare the drink himself. The thing that leaves an impression to me personally is the smell of the room more than anything else. My gut is saying that something is not right in this room itself, but at the current point in the mystery I can't place a finger on it. I could be very wrong, but I can't help to think the smell is used as a disguise even for a momentary event in the mystery - but this is baseless speculation.

Originally Posted by tobiast88

That would require a witch existing, something which has been in doubt these past few hundred pages of discussion. Which you would know if you had read them.

That's a bit harsh. YOU don't know if there is a witch either.
I definitely doubt it (as many people probably have guessed now ), but that's just my opinion. If a person wants to pursue magic is involved to whatever extent they believe in, they are free to do so. The "game" allows for it. The "game" depending what you want to trust provides support for which ever side you take. If you only take one side wholly, you loosing out in this story as you're ignoring nearly half the text. I personally believe there are gems of truth buried in the magic and I try my best to uncover what I believe is viable fact.

And Peroyasha, it's not really foreshadowing his death since he says to kill those who would pull him away from his study, to "Dismember them, make them into firewood, feed them to the Witch's hearth!! [...] soak their dregs in liquor!", which is hardly how Kinzo is killed.

Depends. I see that scene this way:
Kinzo is giving a message out in code: "Prepare the body, tonight is the night." I'm not looking at the full sentence/passage for the message. You can pass messages by tone and key phrases/words. IMHO, you're taking things a bit too literally.

I'm assuming Kinzo knows the answer to the riddle as he put it up. I'm also assuming there was a reason why he suddenly put up a portrait of Beatrice with the riddle up (iirc) two years ago. But, just to be clear, I don't think the burnt body is part of the murders from various discrepancies in the past 3 episodes. I also don't think the riddle is directly related to the murders as well.

In the first 2 eps, we don't know if Kinzo is truly dead. In EP 03, if you believe in the red text - which is the witch's magic by the way, Kinzo is confirmed dead by the time the first night's murders. As I explained before, I think he died before the murders took place via natural causes.

Does that explain my stance better - putting aside whether you agree with it or not? It's fine if you don't agree as I'm sure I fell for a Ryukishi's trap somewhere if not in multiple places, but I'm more interested personally whether I'm expressing myself in a clear manner.

[tobiast88]

Did I definitely say there was no witch ? I said the fact was *in doubt.* Don't make me say what I haven't. And that means I also believe the red text, since it's happening on the meta-level which I believe happens "after" the events, separate from the real world.

And yes, kinzo's *apparent* death. We don't know if he is dead or not in the first two. But taking an insane rant as a clue to Kinzo's apparent death, as well as analysing every single kanji in every single name... I think we're getting too focused on details and ignoring the bigger picture.

And I think that newcomers should at least make the effort to put out new and well-thought out theories, instead of clogging the board while a core five or so people swoop down and correct them gently with more meters of text whose content occurred only six pages ago. But that's hideously elitist of me.

[chronotrig]

Well, I agree that it would be nice for new people to read the earlier posts, but the amount of text on this forum is starting to get close to the size of the game itself
Just try to go back and read it all in one sitting.

So if anyone has an idea they think is new and they've at least skimmed over the previous pages, I don't see why they can't post about it. The way things are now (and knowing ryuukishi's writing style), I think there are no theories that are impossible.
And Ryuukishi himself told his readers to try all the bad theories as well, to see if you can stumble on a tiny part of the right one.

That said, I think any theory which denies the witch or Battler's theory outright seems very doubtful. After all, if you saw that Ryuukishi interview, he said that the Schrodinger's Cat analogy was actually supposed to show up in episode 5. If that is something close to the truth, then magic has to exist, at least until the battle is resolved.

[nagare]

Originally Posted by tobiast88

Did I definitely say there was no witch ?

I'm sorry if I came off as an elitist. The YOU in caps was YOU as in the player. I thought I edited the post above but I guess there was a hiccup.

But taking an insane rant as a clue to Kinzo's apparent death, as well as analysing every single kanji in every single name... I think we're getting too focused on details and ignoring the bigger picture.

Both stem from questions asked so I answered them to the best of my ability.
To me and as well as the majority of the people playing the game (not necessary on this forum), kanji analysis is second nature and the stuff I posted is for the most part is common knowledge. To some extent, I personally believe breaking down the names is necessary to solve the mystery. 卿 and 里 for example are in the riddle and in the names. Both kanji specifically where pick out in story itself (well, actually the の infront of the 卿 was which might imply the title of Gold rather than the land of Gold on the tenth night). 鮎 could also be written as 香魚 where 香 is found in Jessica's name. I found k//eternal's approach interesting and I was quite interested what would come out if I provided him and the forum members knowledge they most likely would not get from just translations.

But I do agree it's overkill info. I did so purposely to see if anyone could pick up new ideas by providing info you can't get by just reading the game if that makes sense.

Oh also, I provided the break down of the building names as it's possible the riddle is pointing to those names rather than the people's and I provided the X音's names as it's possible they'll come out in the story. IIRC reading sometime long ago that one has a tachi-e planned but that tachi-e was scrapped b/c it looked too much like Shannon (iirc it was 眞音 and the info was from an interview with Ryukishi which I can't find at the moment). Recalling that info (it might been just a rumor, I don't remember anymore), I thought I might as well break down their names as well.

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Peroyasha

I'm assuming Kinzo knows the answer to the riddle as he put it up. I'm also assuming there was a reason why he suddenly put up a portrait of Beatrice with the riddle up (iirc) two years ago.

Actually AFAIK this does not even need to be an assumption, as Beato's letters state that the "battle of wits" is with Kinzo, not her. If we view the murders and the puzzle as separate conflicts, then unless the letters are completely misleading (which would be too "cheap", really), Kinzo is certainly behind at least one of them.

Further, the riddle seems to not be written by Beato, which means it is indeed by Kinzo.

I'd forgotten how recent the riddle was, which had made me second-guess whether Maria could be referenced in it. If it's only 2 years, then I can see it happening.

By the way: If "my beloved hometown" is indeed a reference to Maria's name, and Kinzo is the author of the riddle, then it's heavily implied that Maria's knowledge of black magic was acquired from Kinzo, in part because this appears to be the strongest link between the two. Is it a necessity that "witches" as mentioned here are female?

[ClockWorkAngel]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

Is it a necessity that "witches" as mentioned here are female?

A very good point, though Beato did refer to Kinzo as a Magician (I believe or she used another male-specific title) though it's unlikely (But then again this is Ryukishi we're talking about)

I'm more interested in where the painting came from. Who painted it for Kinzo? How did he reproduced the image to the person?

[Nadeor]

I believe in the story, it was explained as Kinzo gave the details to the painter and a painter painted it for him. Nothing else is important here, just treat it as a painting.

[k//eternal]

I can't remember, did the painting in Ep. 2 replace the painting in Ep. 1, or was it somewhere else?

[Rias]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

I can't remember, did the painting in Ep. 2 replace the painting in Ep. 1, or was it somewhere else?

The painting changed from Beatrice dress version to Beatrice skirt version in ep2, and Kyrie was the only eyewitness to see that change happening.

Spoiler for various stuff about the painting in ep1~3:

-Beatrice painting was set up no earlier than April 1984. Two portrait paintings (1 big and 1 small) were in the works, ordered by Ginzo and painted by some unknown painter, assumed to be before April 1984.
-It's unknown what was put up on that spot, if any, before the Beatrice protrait got placed in the hall. Also unknown is the reason of the date, April 1984, that Ginzo decided to put it up.
-Big potrait was placed in the hall, smaller potrait in Ginzo's room.
-Most likey used Beatrice, who was alive in 1967, as a model.
-Ginzo made it so the servants and family members knows about the witch (according to Jessica)
-Changes into skirt version and Eva-Beatrice version in ep2 and ep3, respectively.
Serves as an indication as to which "Beatrice" is in the Real world. (of course, the change itself could be just an anti-mystery claim)

[k//eternal]

I actually want to say that the painting indicates which Beatrice is fake, because if it's the only reference the family members have as to what she looks like, then if they pretend to have seen her, they'll say she looks exactly as in the painting.

[Sterling01]

I don't know if this was posted yet and I'm too lazy to look through the thread but the results for "favorite paring" are out.

Spoiler for Results:

1st BeatoxBattler
2nd BattlerxAnge
3rd KanonxJessica
4th BernkastelxLambdadelta
5th MariaxRosa...
12th BattlerxRonove
21st BattlerxBattler

[chronotrig]

Yep, and Battler won the most suspicious contest for some reason...

As to the portraits, I think that in a way, they are a lot more suspicious than most people give them credit for.
First off, Kyrie did not see the picture change in ep2. Well, at least the game never says that she saw it change. In fact, it game never says that it does change, and it never mentions the second portrait at all. It just shows a different picture on the screen when that other Beatrice shows up.
And unless you make some really crazy weird theory, you have to admit that Kyrie would end up mentioning the fact that the portrait magically changed.

And the ep3 picture only appeared during

Spoiler for ep3 spoilers:

Eva-Beatrice's coronation ceremony

which more or less took place in metaland.

In other words, the new versions of the portrait, which have become the symbol for the entire series, have absolutely nothing to do anything that happens in the series. Are there really separate portraits? Is it someone's delusion, and if so, whose?
It isn't like Ryuukishi to waste material like that.

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Yep, and Battler won the most suspicious contest for some reason...

He was in 2nd place last poll...
Battler is the "most suspicious" for the fact that he's the one we know the least about. Also for the fact that we don't even know why he decided to come back to the family, unlike Keiichi where we were given hints to why he moved to Hinamizawa.

[Rias]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

As to the portraits, I think that in a way, they are a lot more suspicious than most people give them credit for.
First off, Kyrie did not see the picture change in ep2. Well, at least the game never says that she saw it change. In fact, it game never says that it does change, and it never mentions the second portrait at all. It just shows a different picture on the screen when that other Beatrice shows up.
And unless you make some really crazy weird theory, you have to admit that Kyrie would end up mentioning the fact that the portrait magically changed.

And the ep3 picture only appeared during

Spoiler for ep3 spoilers:

Eva-Beatrice's coronation ceremony

which more or less took place in metaland.

In other words, the new versions of the portrait, which have become the symbol for the entire series, have absolutely nothing to do anything that happens in the series. Are there really separate portraits? Is it someone's delusion, and if so, whose?
It isn't like Ryuukishi to waste material like that.

Yes, the game never metioned the potrait change in words, but Kyrie was the only one there during the "change" in ep2. She mentioned that she met with someone "who claimed to be Beatrice", and never mentioned the change. However, in ep2 she describes that "Beatrice":
「あくまで私の主観だが、スーツ姿の女性は肖像画そっくりに見えた」

So basically there are couple possibilities as to the "change":
-Potrait did change. Suit Beatrice = Suit Beatrice potrait. Magic explains it all.
-Kyrie's own mind at work. She's overlaying Suit Beatrice with Dress Beatrice potrait in her mind, comes up with the product of Suit Beatrice potrait (in her mind).
-Kyrie dreamt up the whole thing. Kinda like the claim that Natsuhi dreamt up the whole "wing in your heart" thing in ep1.
-Anti-mystery claim.

Originally Posted by k//eternal

I actually want to say that the painting indicates which Beatrice is fake, because if it's the only reference the family members have as to what she looks like, then if they pretend to have seen her, they'll say she looks exactly as in the painting.

That might be so, but in ep3, no one saw the change or claimed to see the change of the potrait. That's why I think the potrait change is just there to indicate which Beatrice is in (or in charge of) the "real world" at the time, kinda a anti-mystery sided element.


Furthurmore, I remember reading that some people has worked out the riddle to indicate that the gold is hidden behind the potrait (one of the many solution claims). As such that they claim that perhaps either
1. the finder broke the potrait to get to the treasure, then replaced it with another potrait
2. Spining potrait (like spining walls), another potrait is at the back of the ep1 potrait.

Which perhaps might explain the potrait change.

[Rias]

Originally Posted by Sterling01

He was in 2nd place last poll...
Battler is the "most suspicious" for the fact that he's the one we know the least about. Also for the fact that we don't even know why he decided to come back to the family, unlike Keiichi where we were given hints to why he moved to Hinamizawa.

wasn't it becuase his grandparents (Asumu side) died? I think it's the 07151128 thing, plus he's the only one who survives until the end for all 3 epsiodes.

[k//eternal]

does anyone have a map of the mansion now i am curious

[nagare]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

I actually want to say that the painting indicates which Beatrice is fake, because if it's the only reference the family members have as to what she looks like, then if they pretend to have seen her, they'll say she looks exactly as in the painting.

ニヤッ
I'm glad I'm not the only one who coming to that conclusion.

Originally Posted by k//eternal

does anyone have a map of the mansion now i am curious

It'll be very difficult to make a good one since we don't have the know the exact number of rooms.

From what I could tell (off memory - probably better if someone checks on this):

Spoiler:

Basement

Boiler Room - has two exits. A door that leads to the inner yard (must climb stairs. no secondary door at the top, stairs are covered/walled in?). And another door that leads to stairs to go up to the hallway that leads to the kitchen. In this stair area there is a tool cabinet.

IIRC there is another room in the basement with the tele-com equipment/radio? I'm guessing this room is not connected to the Boiler room. (Although I vaguely remember this being in the servant's office in the guest house...?)

First Floor

Large Entry Hall - here is the stair case with the portrait which is on a platform midway up the stairs. There is a intercom here...? Something was close enough to pick up Maria's singing in EP 01.

Reception room - (where Shannon's body is found in EP 03). There are windows in this room easily accessible from the outside. There is only 1 door to this room.

Living room - It might be the above room but there is a room with a TV and sofa.

Kitchen - at the very least 2 doors possibly 3. 1 Door leads to the hallway. 1 leads outside (not inner yard) which one can walk to the Chapel. Last door (the broken door in EP 03) is unknown where it leads. Possibly the same door as the second one. There is a intercom here.

Inner yard - there are at least 2 doors to this yard. Both doors are left unlock. There is a stairwell that goes down to the Boiler room. Unknown if that counts as the second door.

Dinning Hall - 2? doors to this room. There are large curtains in this room where children can possibly hid according to Jessica at the end of EP 03. There is a intercom here. Blood is found here in EP 02.

Restroom/Powder Room - this is somewhere near the stairs.

Servant's office - There is a bed, a box for the keys, and medical supplies. 2 doors(?). 1 to enter. IIRC there was another door which "zombie Kanon" came through in EP 02. Possibly leads to the inner yard? However, in EP 02 Beatrice did give her 密室定義 for this room.

Guest room - 1 door, a bathroom with tub (separate room), and windows. IIRC there was one on the first floor... need to recheck EP 01 for this... But if I recall Eva and Hideyoshi were killed here in EP 01. If so, the door here can be chained. Beatrice has NOT given her 密室定義 for this room, although it is assumed to be in EP 01.

* There might be more Guest room iirc there was 2 or 3, but I don't know if that includes the VIP room as a guest room or what floor those rooms are on.

Second Floor

Guest room - There's definitely a guest room on the 2nd floor as Kumasawa's body is found here. According to the EP 03 TIPS, Kumasawa often sneaks her afternoon naps here in secret.

VIP Room - The room that Beatrice stays. There is a window in this room. 1 door. This room is usually left locked. Genji's body is found here in EP 03. This room is not too far from Jessica's room judging from the events in EP 02.

Jessica's room - Judging from the events in EP 02, it's on the 2nd floor. There is only 1 door and there window that I guessing faces the inner yard(?). There is suspicion Kanon's body was thrown out this window. Beatrice has given her 密室定義 for this room in EP 02.

I'm making a big assumption with the following:
I believe Krauss and Natsuhi have separate rooms.
It seems that the rooms are on the second floor judging by the events in EP 02.
Natsuhi's room - there is a large mirror/dresser. Beatrice's 密室定義 was given for Natsuhi's room in EP 02.

I'm not sure if this is in Krauss' room or on the second floor (I kinda remember it being on the first, but my memory is vague) - there some kind of a closet/storage - this door is locked but Krauss keeps a bar of gold here.

I believe the gun rack/closet is also on this floor. It's very strange in EP 01, and 02 there are only 1 gun found (with no suspicion of missing guns) and in EP 03 four guns are readily available.

Third Floor

A Waiting room - this is next to Kinzo's Study. Gohda's body was found here in EP 03. No other info is known about this room as far as I know...

Kinzo's study -

• There is a bed and bathroom.
  
• There is a large door and on the knob there is a scorpion inscription on it.
  This door auto-locks. This is the only known way to get into or out of the room. Beatrice has NOT given her 密室定義 for this room. I believe the Master key will NOT open this door(?).
  
• I'm assuming there might a small lab table or something where Kinzo makes his "magic" potions.
  
• There is window that faces the Rose Garden
  
• There is small portrait of Beatrice in the room.
  
• Probably a fancy table dedicated to playing chess.
  
• A coffee table where a mysterious letter was placed in EP 01. This table is near the portrait.
  
• Racks and racks of books written in various languages. According to Battler in EP 01, Kinzo is literate in many languages. It is unknown if this is the room Eva sneaks to in EP 03 - although highly assumed (is there a smaller study somewhere else, as to get into this room Eva would have needed Genji's key...? As far as we the players know, Kinzo's key to this room is not recovered).
  
  There is an intercom in this room. For some reason, Krauss and the other family members do not use the comm to talk to Kinzo and prefer banging on his door and leaving receipts to make sure he doesn't leave the room (<_<)
  
  EP 01, the comm rings when the phones all should be down.
  EP 03, Kinzo uses the comm to call the servants after midnight.

@ chronotrig after EP 03 I think Battler is suspicious. I'm not too sure what Rias means by the "it's the 07151128 thing" (birthdate?) but, there are way too many convenient situations for the members of his family in that episode. Can Battler pull off the kills? I don't believe he could have on many of them, but there's a possibility of him being an accomplice, imho.

Also for the fact that we don't even know why he decided to come back to the family, unlike Keiichi where we were given hints to why he moved to Hinamizawa.

I recall the same reason Rias mentioned. He kinda had to since he moved back with his father. But then seeing that Ange didn't have to come, then maybe not...? (although she is ill and young).